Why do the gods fight?

[BlotMaster]

I know that most people here are of differing beliefs and I realize that some people here pretend to be of uncommon religions in order to spread negative dissension. I prefer philosophical debates more often than not without having to resort to insulting others who believe differently. At the end of the day we are all unique even when compared to those of the same faith.

I also understand that many here believe in only one god. That is perfectly understandable. I am new to these forums and I want to make it clear that I am sensitive to your beliefs. This question is mostly philosophical. My understanding of “what” a god is most certainly differs from yours. I believe that a god is a member of another race of beings albeit far more advanced than humanity. That is why there can be more than one because they reproduce as human beings do. My ancestors had no concept of an all powerful, single creator, and I believe that the name God was only used by the ancestors because there was no other word in all the Germanic tongues that could convey the meaning of your Creator to our fellows. Your understanding of a god is that it is a title, a name given to one being, perhaps a similar concept to what we Norse Pagans refer to as the Norns, the weavers of fate. We cannot understand them for they have sown our inevitable end at Ragnarok. But there is also a rebirth of all Mankind. Everyone in essence reincarnates including the gods.

In this way our beliefs are similar in that we all believe in destiny, things than cannot be changed, no matter how much, or how little we understand the “why.” The beings that I call gods are not my masters, they are my companions, my mentors, my friends. I pray to them and worship them but they worship Mankind as well. Thor is duty bound to defend Earth from his chariot. His hammer drove the giants away from our world. It would be a sin against Mankind and against his Father Odin to abandon his charge.

But why do the gods fight? Why do we fight? Why is it so important to some that everyone believe the same thing that they do? What if different gods appeared to different groups of people? Could it be that some of the gods lied when they said that they were the only ones even if they lied about nothing else? Constancy is not a sign of flawlessness. A river could be constant for thousands of years, a peaceful current, yet one day it could become treacherous, and dangerous to a traveler, knocking their boat asunder. I am certain that my gods have made mistakes as it is written that they have. My gods are honest and have never claimed to be perfect for they too had a beginning. Only the Norns know the origin of the Universe as it was before the Primordial Chaos became Order.

What are your opinions on this? Assume for a moment that all gods are real. Could some lie only a little in a way that you cannot detect? They could be honest ninety-eight percent of the time and lie only once every several thousand years. That said they could have lied about being the only gods. More than one god has claimed to be the only god. Someone is clearly lying in that sense. The gods fight each other, some more aggressively than others, as many gods have remained only among the People they first appeared to, and have never commanded their followers to convert others. My religion is a cultural religion and people of non-Germanic heritage have never found a reason to worship my gods. They have their own or they otherwise follow a universal religion such as Christianity. This is an interesting observation: The rise of a universal religion from the cultural religion of Judaism.

 

[Fairwinds]

…

But why do the gods fight? …

you’re the pagan. you tell us.

 

[BlotMaster]

you’re the pagan. you tell us.

Fair point but I can only tell you why my gods fight each other as they do. The question is why do all the gods fight? In essence a religious war is a war between gods of multiple religions. During the Crusades it was your god against the Islamic god. In some ways human beings are instruments of change in the physical world. Perhaps there are gods who truly desire to be the only god worshiped by Mankind. In that sense the gods may be more like us than we realize.

 

[Fairwinds]

Fair point but I can only tell you why my gods fight each other as they do. The question is why do all the gods fight? In essence a religious war is a war between gods of multiple religions. During the Crusades it was your god against the Islamic god. In some ways human beings are instruments of change in the physical world. Perhaps there are gods who truly desire to be the only god worshiped by Mankind. In that sense the gods may be more like us than we realize.

I don’t accept that there are “gods”, so asking the question makes no sense to me. you might as well ask me why I think “my little pony” fights with pixies.

so what’s up with your norse dudes? they just enjoy a little throw down?

 

[BlotMaster]

I don’t accept that there are “gods”, so asking the question makes no sense to me. you might as well ask me why I think “my little pony” fights with pixies.

so what’s up with your norse dudes? they just enjoy a little throw down?

You could say that in a sense but it is far more complicated than that. Gods have emotions, desires, and goals. Loki for instance does what he does for many reasons but jealousy seems to motivate him often. My gods fight each other at times for similar reasons that humans fight each other. Perhaps gods of different religions do so for those same reasons as well. However, I have noticed that very few religions incite violence these days, at least inherently. In the modern age religious violence is considered extremism. That could lead one to believe that the gods never fought gods of other religions but rather humans acted without the blessing of their gods. The implications are severe. Bravery and heroism is valued by my gods. The misconception is that we must die in battle to go to Valhalla. If we lead a brave and heroic life then we certainly deserve the Halls of Odin where we will feast, drink, and train until Ragnarok comes. My beliefs seem outdated by some but many ancient beliefs still thrive after millenia of practice. Can on truly eradicate a belief system? As long as the gods exist one cannot eradicate their words. There is not a single religion that I have read about that is not practiced somewhere by someone.

 

[Fairwinds]

You could say that in a sense but it is far more complicated than that. Gods have emotions, desires, and goals. Loki for instance does what he does for many reasons but jealousy seems to motivate him often. My gods fight each other at times for similar reasons that humans fight each other. Perhaps gods of different religions do so for those same reasons as well. However, I have noticed that very few religions incite violence these days, at least inherently. In the modern age religious violence is considered extremism. That could lead one to believe that the gods never fought gods of other religions but rather humans acted without the blessing of their gods. The implications are severe. Bravery and heroism is valued by my gods. The misconception is that we must die in battle to go to Valhalla. If we lead a brave and heroic life then we certainly deserve the Halls of Odin where we will feast, drink, and train until Ragnarok comes. My beliefs seem outdated by some but many ancient beliefs still thrive after millenia of practice. Can on truly eradicate a belief system? As long as the gods exist one cannot eradicate their words. There is not a single religion that I have read about that is not practiced somewhere by someone.

I’m a big fan of the crusades myself, alas, those days are over. I too value bravery and heroism, as well as the ability to booze it up in my elder days with comrades in arms, talking about those brave and heroic days. that’s why I joined the navy.

where are you serving?

 

[polytropos]

I also understand that many here believe in only one god. That is perfectly understandable.

Perfectly understandable? In what sense do you find something that you disagree with perfectly understandable? Or do you mean that belief in a particular god is only psychological and you could understand why someone might deceive himself into believing in just one god?

I believe that a god is a member of another race of beings albeit far more advanced than humanity. That is why there can be more than one because they reproduce as human beings do. My ancestors had no concept of an all powerful, single creator, and I believe that the name God was only used by the ancestors because there was no other word in all the Germanic tongues that could convey the meaning of your Creator to our fellows. Your understanding of a god is that it is a title, a name given to one being, perhaps a similar concept to what we Norse Pagans refer to as the Norns, the weavers of fate. We cannot understand them for they have sown our inevitable end at Ragnarok. But there is also a rebirth of all Mankind. Everyone in essence reincarnates including the gods.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth; I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day He rose again. He ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

What if different gods appeared to different groups of people?

You mean what if everyone could be right? Convenient and comfortable - but I feel reality is too consistent for it to be true.

Could it be that some of the gods lied when they said that they were the only ones even if they lied about nothing else?

Jesus would lose much of his credibility if he were lying when he said he came for the salvation of all.

Assume for a moment that all gods are real.

Impossible.

They could be honest ninety-eight percent of the time and lie only once every several thousand years. That said they could have lied about being the only gods. More than one god has claimed to be the only god. Someone is clearly lying in that sense.

It’s not really a lie on the part of a false god; it’s a lie or a misunderstanding on the part of a false disciple. As a thought experiment, I claim that there is a god named Bob who revealed to me that he is the only god. Is Bob the liar or am I the liar? (Another possibility, which you do not seem to account for, is that I am not lying intentionally but am just wrong - I just imagined that Bob spoke to me.)

My religion is a cultural religion and people of non-Germanic heritage have never found a reason to worship my gods.

You mean it is culturally contingent?

 

[BlotMaster]

Perfectly understandable? In what sense do you find something that you disagree with perfectly understandable? Or do you mean that belief in a particular god is only psychological and you could understand why someone might deceive himself into believing in just one god?

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth; I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day He rose again. He ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

You mean what if everyone could be right? Convenient and comfortable - but I feel reality is too consistent for it to be true.

Jesus would lose much of his credibility if he were lying when he said he came for the salvation of all.

Impossible.

It’s not really a lie on the part of a false god; it’s a lie or a misunderstanding on the part of a false disciple. As a thought experiment, I claim that there is a god named Bob who revealed to me that he is the only god. Is Bob the liar or am I the liar? (Another possibility, which you do not seem to account for, is that I am not lying intentionally but am just wrong - I just imagined that Bob spoke to me.)

You mean it is culturally contingent?

I meant perfectly understandable as in it is what I expected from most people here. I probably did not word that correctly. I meant that I understand that you worship one god. Yes I realize that you disagree with me on all counts. I knew that most here would certainly claim the opposite of what I claim. I was raised in a Protestant home, specifically Baptist to be as accurate as possible, and my parents still practice their religion. I left the church for many reasons and it is difficult to help Christians understand why I did. It is hard for them to imagine a true Christian feeling the call of gods that they consider false or that they do not believe exist. Christianity was derived from Judaism. The Jewish messiah was Jesus according to the Christians but to the Jews the messiah has not come. The Jews were not known to the other people of the world for thousands of years. To say that only one religion could be correct is calling thousands of years of hundreds of other cultures that had no contact with the Jews or with early Christians all deceived. The signs of Ragnarok are here in full. I would call that constancy. The only thing that has not happened yet is the long winter. Prophecies from other religions have come to pass as well. I would never accuse you of worshiping a false god. I have flexible beliefs and I believe that other gods could exist in other pockets of time and space. Who am I to say that only my ancestors had it right? There are at least seven other worlds mentioned in the old lore. Your god could be of the same race as my gods or of some other race. The identity of gods and giants, elves, or other entities seems to blur as one reads on. The gods are essentially a higher caste of Jotun it seems. It is also possible that all gods are Jotun, even yours, but remember I am making sense out of the world according to my paradigm.

I realize that you consider my beliefs nonsense but if you are of Germanic heritage of any kind, whether German, English, Scandinavian, or what have you, then your ancestors also worshiped these same gods albeit with regional differences, denominations if you will. Christianity was a foreign religion to us. I certainly prefer not to discuss the spread of Christianity, especially on your own forums. That is like being invited into a man’s house out of charity, and then accusing him of something. It does not matter what history says I am not going to come onto your forums and make accusations. I am a guest here. So rest assured my intention is not to agitate anyone.

 

[polytropos]

I knew that most here would certainly claim the opposite of what I claim. I was raised in a Protestant home, specifically Baptist to be as accurate as possible, and my parents still practice their religion. I left the church for many reasons and it is difficult to help Christians understand why I did. It is hard for them to imagine a true Christian feeling the call of gods that they consider false or that they do not believe exist.

I left the Catholic Church for 7 years. I understand why it is tempting, although I think the reasoning is often flawed (as I would have to think to not do the same myself).

Christianity was derived from Judaism. The Jewish messiah was Jesus according to the Christians but to the Jews the messiah has not come.

That was the situation, indeed. There were two truth claims and either one or neither was right; what is impossible is that both were right.

I would also contend that it was not Christianity that was derived from Judaism but Judaism that was fulfilled by Christianity.

The Jews were not known to the other people of the world for thousands of years. To say that only one religion could be correct is calling thousands of years of hundreds of other cultures that had no contact with the Jews or with early Christians all deceived.

Christianity could not have reached them. That is a fact which was not their fault and for which they were not condemned.

I have flexible beliefs and I believe that other gods could exist in other pockets of time and space.

What do you mean by “other pockets of time and space”?

I think you may have trouble grappling with the logical necessity that most people throughout history and even currently are wrong.

Your god could be of the same race as my gods or of some other race.

Our God has no genus, let alone a race.

I realize that you consider my beliefs nonsense

I don’t share your beliefs in the Norse pantheon. I would not insist that they are nonsense. Your attitude towards truth and the possible coexistence of any and all gods (even outside of those that you formally claim to exist), however, I find logically untenable.

but if you are of Germanic heritage of any kind, whether German, English, Scandinavian, or what have you, then your ancestors also worshiped these same gods albeit with regional differences, denominations if you will.

Certainly. And I had other ancestors who were Christians. But I do neither hold nor reject any belief just because my ancestors held the belief. I evaluate the belief in a modern context.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Fair point but I can only tell you why my gods fight each other as they do. The question is why do all the gods fight? In essence a religious war is a war between gods of multiple religions. During the Crusades it was your god against the Islamic god. In some ways human beings are instruments of change in the physical world. Perhaps there are gods who truly desire to be the only god worshiped by Mankind. In that sense the gods may be more like us than we realize.

This statement is in error. It was not the Christian God vs the Islamic God. It was instead Human Christians vs human Muslims. The fight was for the holy land and to protect Truth .

Also, arguably Islam, Jews, and Christians believe in the same God. We just do not practice worshiping him the same, and as a Catholic I would say that Jews and Muslims err greatly in their assessment of the truth.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I know that most people here are of differing beliefs and I realize that some people here pretend to be of uncommon religions in order to spread negative dissension. I prefer philosophical debates more often than not without having to resort to insulting others who believe differently. At the end of the day we are all unique even when compared to those of the same faith.

I also understand that many here believe in only one god. That is perfectly understandable. I am new to these forums and I want to make it clear that I am sensitive to your beliefs. This question is mostly philosophical. My understanding of “what” a god is most certainly differs from yours. I believe that a god is a member of another race of beings albeit far more advanced than humanity. That is why there can be more than one because they reproduce as human beings do. My ancestors had no concept of an all powerful, single creator, and I believe that the name God was only used by the ancestors because there was no other word in all the Germanic tongues that could convey the meaning of your Creator to our fellows. Your understanding of a god is that it is a title, a name given to one being, perhaps a similar concept to what we Norse Pagans refer to as the Norns, the weavers of fate. We cannot understand them for they have sown our inevitable end at Ragnarok. But there is also a rebirth of all Mankind. Everyone in essence reincarnates including the gods.

In this way our beliefs are similar in that we all believe in destiny, things than cannot be changed, no matter how much, or how little we understand the “why.” The beings that I call gods are not my masters, they are my companions, my mentors, my friends. I pray to them and worship them but they worship Mankind as well. Thor is duty bound to defend Earth from his chariot. His hammer drove the giants away from our world. It would be a sin against Mankind and against his Father Odin to abandon his charge.

But why do the gods fight? Why do we fight? Why is it so important to some that everyone believe the same thing that they do? What if different gods appeared to different groups of people? Could it be that some of the gods lied when they said that they were the only ones even if they lied about nothing else? Constancy is not a sign of flawlessness. A river could be constant for thousands of years, a peaceful current, yet one day it could become treacherous, and dangerous to a traveler, knocking their boat asunder. I am certain that my gods have made mistakes as it is written that they have. My gods are honest and have never claimed to be perfect for they too had a beginning. Only the Norns know the origin of the Universe as it was before the Primordial Chaos became Order.

What are your opinions on this? Assume for a moment that all gods are real. Could some lie only a little in a way that you cannot detect? They could be honest ninety-eight percent of the time and lie only once every several thousand years. That said they could have lied about being the only gods. More than one god has claimed to be the only god. Someone is clearly lying in that sense. The gods fight each other, some more aggressively than others, as many gods have remained only among the People they first appeared to, and have never commanded their followers to convert others. My religion is a cultural religion and people of non-Germanic heritage have never found a reason to worship my gods. They have their own or they otherwise follow a universal religion such as Christianity. This is an interesting observation: The rise of a universal religion from the cultural religion of Judaism.

Based on your assessment of the gods and their character, I would ask you who created them?

At some point in the distant past at the start of time, the Big Bang, their was something that created something out of nothing. There was a first cause. The first cause is God, and I think even paganism might have this same principle . I think in roman mythology it was called chaos and then an unnamed god shaped the chaos. This is similar to the idea of Judeo Christian God. Perhaps Norse has similar stories?

If encourage you to watch this video to understand how Catholics view God.

Fr Barron “What Christians mean by God” youtu.be/W_Yjue8MXAI

 

[BlotMaster]

I have always found it difficult to discuss my beliefs with those of other religions, simply because two belief systems so different have no common point of reference, and this conversation illustrates the reasons why this is so. Your concept of reality is different from my own. Your religion demands an absolute truth while mine does not. Even during the Dark Ages my ancestors were willing to believe that your god could exist as well as the Germanic Pantheon. That is why you do not believe that all gods can be real. I believe in knowledge and understanding. I do not tell someone that they are wrong just because the lore of my culture never spoke of it. I am sure that there is a plethora of knowledge that we were not told in ancient times simply because we were not advanced enough to understand it. The silence of the gods in the modern day is unfortunate as were they to tangibly speak to us as they did in previous ages then all of this could be cleared up. Sadly no god speaks to man as man speaks to man. Not anymore. We are at a stale mate. My intention in coming here was simply to discuss possibilities. It was idle conversation more than anything. It was never my intention to try and convince anyone of anything. I simply enjoy thought provocative ideas. That said I feel that I should move on at this point. It has been interesting and I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. I am pleased that you are unwavering in your beliefs as no one should be moved from their convictions. Farewell.

 

[Fairwinds]

does this have anything to do with dungeons and dragons? or the renaissance faire?

what are your sources for norse mythology in the 6th century???

 

[littlenothing]

I was wondering the other day what would cause a person these days to believe in Norse gods. Would you care to answer that OP? I’m not being snide just so you know. I do honestly wonder.

 

[ellzeena]

Troll?

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I don’t believe in the gods so this is a nonsensical statement to me. However, if you’re asking why the people of the various gods fight then… well, for all the obvious reasons plus one: there’s no way for the people of the various gods to fact check against each other. That’s why you generally don’t see scientists brawling it out in laboratories around the world, but in places where there is a high concentration of gods (e.g. the middle east, India/Pakistan), there’s a ton of violence.

 

[polytropos]

I have always found it difficult to discuss my beliefs with those of other religions, simply because two belief systems so different have no common point of reference, and this conversation illustrates the reasons why this is so. Your concept of reality is different from my own.

I hope I did not offend you because that was not my intention. You said that you liked philosophy and seemed conscious and accepting of the fact that your beliefs are not common on this forum, so I was asking questions and pointing out where my beliefs differed. (At the end of your first post, you asked for opinions.)

Your religion demands an absolute truth while mine does not.

I would say logic and reality demand absolute truth.

Even during the Dark Ages my ancestors were willing to believe that your god could exist as well as the Germanic Pantheon. That is why you do not believe that all gods can be real.

Not so. Judeo-Christian religion professed one God prior to the evangelization of the Germanic tribes.

I believe in knowledge and understanding. I do not tell someone that they are wrong just because the lore of my culture never spoke of it.

I believe in knowledge and understanding also, and I do not tell someone that they are wrong just because the lore of my culture never spoke of it.

When someone makes a claim that contradicts one of my beliefs, I have a few options:

• disagree with him (tantamount to telling him that I believe him to be wrong)
• state that I do not have enough information to judge the validity of his claim
• agree with him (tantamount to admitting that I am wrong)

You should not be offended that I have taken the first option. It doesn’t have to do with the lore of my culture.

That said I feel that I should move on at this point. It has been interesting and I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. I am pleased that you are unwavering in your beliefs as no one should be moved from their convictions. Farewell.

Adios.

 

[Fairwinds]

they fight over the best tables?

 

[Razanir]

The signs of Ragnarok are here in full. I would call that constancy. The only thing that has not happened yet is the long winter. Prophecies from other religions have come to pass as well.

Out of question, what signs are these? I’ve seen prophecies from other religions, and they’re vague enough to read anything into them.

Other questions (since this seems to be turning into “Ask a Norse Pagan”):

1. Why did you leave Christianity?
2. How do you justify polytheism? It seems complicated to have multiple creator deities. What happens if their wills are opposed? Admittedly, I realized this by reading a webcomic, but it’s a valid question. If two all-powerful beings are opposed to each other, how does anything get done?

 

[polytropos]

If two all-powerful beings are opposed to each other, how does anything get done?

I do not think the OP is coming back. However, I don’t think that gods in polytheistic systems are generally thought to be all-powerful.