Why Do the Jews not accept Jesus?

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Numbers 23:19
Code:
"God is not a man, that he should lie, 
   nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. 
   Does he speak and then not act? 
   Does he promise and not fulfill?"
So if Jesus isn’t the Messiah, then it’s been two-thousand, seven hundred and nine years since you’ve been promised a Messiah. It’s also been prophecied that He would be rejected by His own people.
 
I read the Old Testament and when I got to the covenant of Abraham, I became concerned about where God would place me in His plan. Because I loved God, but I was a gentile.
Already we’re at a chasm, we don’t believe that you’re disadvantaged in any way by not being a Jew.

Another one of my ‘mantras’ here (you’ve heard a few now) is that the genius of Christianity lay in inventing an illness (original sin and the need to be ‘saved’ or face eternal damnation and the ‘fires of hell’) and prescribing itself as the only cure. This gives Christianity a very different focus from that of Judaism.

I have to say that, if you (or anybody) persists in trying to understand Judaism as ‘Christianity minus Jesus’, as ‘working’ in a similar way, with a set of similar presuppositions, then you won’t get close to understanding what we say when we reply to you.

It’s almost as if we’re talking two different languages - even shared words have different interpretations.
The differece between the New Testament and the Koran or the Book of Mormon is it doesn’t contradict the Old Testament.
From a Christian perspective, that’s true - from a Jewish perspective, it’s completely wrong.

If you want to continue a conversation like this you really do have to stop talking at us. Stop trying to ‘prove’ your position and listen to what people are saying.
 
Already we’re at a chasm, we don’t believe that you’re disadvantaged in any way by not being a Jew.

Another one of my ‘mantras’ here (you’ve heard a few now) is that the genius of Christianity lay in inventing an illness (original sin and the need to be ‘saved’ or face eternal damnation and the ‘fires of hell’) and prescribing itself as the only cure. This gives Christianity a very different focus from that of Judaism.

I have to say that, if you (or anybody) persists in trying to understand Judaism as ‘Christianity minus Jesus’, as ‘working’ in a similar way, with a set of similar presuppositions, then you won’t get close to understanding what we say when we reply to you.

It’s almost as if we’re talking two different languages - even shared words have different interpretations.

From a Christian perspective, that’s true - from a Jewish perspective, it’s completely wrong.

If you want to continue a conversation like this you really do have to stop talking at us. Stop trying to ‘prove’ your position and listen to what people are saying.
Well Christianity is to accept Jesus Christ as the eternal sacrafice for sins. When’s the last time you’ve sacraficed an animal to an altar?

And I’ve noticed “sheol” the place for sinners meantioned in the Old Testament.

How then should I understand Judaism?

I’m not trying to talk “at you” but you haven’t even responded to my fundamental posts. I can’t “listen to what you’re saying” because you aren’t saying anything.
 
Well Christianity is to accept Jesus Christ as the eternal sacrafice for sins. When’s the last time you’ve sacraficed an animal to an altar?

And I’ve noticed “sheol” the place for sinners meantioned in the Old Testament.

How then should I understand Judaism?

I’m not trying to talk “at you” but you haven’t even responded to my fundamental posts. I can’t “listen to what you’re saying” because you aren’t saying anything.
This thread is about why we don’t accept Jesus, something that I’ve explained several times - you just don’t like the answers and keep on talking to me as if I’m supposed to talk about Judaism in the context of Christian thought, Christian interpretations, something I’m not going to do because I’m not a Christian.

Now, if you want to know about the Jewish faith, there are a number of sites that give a good basic description, try Judaism 101, for example.
 
one issue with Christianity is how “Gentile” is has become, and how at odds Christians have places themselves with Judaism.

Christian understanding of Jewish traditions, scriptural understanding and interpretation, and theology is often limited. Jewish understandings of the Jewish origins of the Church / Christianity may or may not be very strong, and both groups tend to talk past one another. Jews tend to see Messiah as simply a great Man, whereas Christians identify Him with the Holy and Eternal God Himself, incarnate or made Man.

the issue basically comes down to “was He or wasn’t He”, but there’s more to consider than that. history and anti-Semitism also need to be considered, especially anti-Semitism in the name of Christ.

one Jewish woman who survived the camps and later came to believe in Jesus explains something of the suffering Jews endured from Christians, and how this has helped to color how many Jews’ views Jesus, al least in part.
 
Well what about Jeremiah 31:31 which reads:

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a **new covenant **with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
I like this bible passage.
 
Jews tend to see Messiah as simply a great Man, whereas Christians identify Him with the Holy and Eternal God Himself, incarnate or made Man.
That’s what I’m saying. Why don’t we just turn to Scripture? How else should we interprit:

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” -Isaiah 9:6
 
a lot of this also boils down to how Jews interpret their own scripture.

whereas we would recognize this as a Messianic prophecy equating Messiah with God in nature, power, and holiness, a Jew might read it as a prophecy about Hezekiah.

a Christian would argue that the Jew can not see the larger picture, whereas a Jew would argue that the Christian is reading Christ into the text, and not understanding the Jewish reading.

both are right, imo. the pasaage is Messianic, does refer to Jesus of Nazareth, and does equate Jesus with God is power and authority (and identity). Jews do sometimes read this passage as being fuflilled in Hezekiah, and these are issues of Scriptural interpretation Christians should be aware of when talking to non-Messianic Jews, about their own holy texts, and providing answers.
That’s what I’m saying. Why don’t we just turn to Scripture? How else should we interprit:

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” -Isaiah 9:6
 
This subject is very difficult to discuss because of its sensitivity and because “the proof” is in interpretations of the Tanach in ways that could never be done by Jews to reach conclusions that could never be held to be acceptable to Jews. It is, mutatis mutandis, similar to interpreting Christian scriptures to prove that Yeshua ben Yosef was not your messiah and did not die for your salvation. No Christian could accept such an interpretation of his/her scriptures and would find the conclusions specious, to say the least.

Before I get to my neutral example to demonstrate my point, I often get the feeling on this forum that Christians believe that the concept of the universality of God and redemption for all people, including non Jews, was not part of Judaism and actually was introduced with the creation of Christianity. This is not true and if indeed anyone holds that position I would point them to the book of Yonah (Jonah).

Now for my neutral example on what happens when we go to interpret the Jewish scriptures divorced from Judaism.

Lets take the very first word in the Tanach -בראשית-which is often translated into english as “In the beginning”. Now let’s say I created a religion where I believed that God came into existence at exactly the same time as He began to create the heavens and the earth. I could look at the first word in the Tanach and say “here is my proof and basis for my beliefs and that basis is the the first word in the Tanach itself and how could any Jew not accept what I am saying when the basis for my belief is the very first word of the Tanach”? However, all the other Jews would answer that while it says, prima facie, “in the beginning”, what it actually means is “when God began” to create the heavens and the earth. If I asked how that could be, all the other Jews would reply that the central basis for the Jewish concept of God is that He has always existed. That is why, as opposed to all pagan mythological stories of their gods, there is no part of the story about how God came into existence. That is why the word for God is made up of the Hebrew verbs for was-is-and will be. I would be told that in the very first sentence of the Tanach, the Jews are making a declaration to all the other religions and beliefs - there is one single all powerful eternal God and He is responsible for everything in the universe.

This is, from the Jewish perspective, exactly what happens when the Christian points to parts of the Tanach for the basis of his/her Christian beliefs. Just as Jews would not accept that the word “In the beginning” leads to the conclusion of a God that was not always eternal, Christian interpretations of our scriptures will never lead us to Christian concepts that are antithetical to Judaism. With all due respect, the results are no less specious from our perspective than a similar exercise would be to you using the Christian scriptures to prove conclusions antithetical to Christianity.

(I apologize in advance if once again in presenting my position I have somehow been insensitive to others feelings and have done my best to be careful considering the highly charged nature of the subject - as for the comment I received about my punctuation- this forum is the only place I get to practice writing in English on a regular basis - so I’m just happy if I have been able to present my points in an understandable manner).
 
This subject is very difficult to discuss because of its sensitivity and because “the proof” is in interpretations of the Tanach in ways that could never be done by Jews to reach conclusions that could never be held to be acceptable to Jews. It is, mutatis mutandis, similar to interpreting Christian scriptures to prove that Yeshua ben Yosef was not your messiah and did not die for your salvation. No Christian could accept such an interpretation of his/her scriptures and would find the conclusions specious, to say the least.

Before I get to my neutral example to demonstrate my point, I often get the feeling on this forum that Christians believe that the concept of the universality of God and redemption for all people, including non Jews, was not part of Judaism and actually was introduced with the creation of Christianity. This is not true and if indeed anyone holds that position I would point them to the book of Yonah (Jonah).

Now for my neutral example on what happens when we go to interpret the Jewish scriptures divorced from Judaism.

Lets take the very first word in the Tanach -בראשית-which is often translated into english as “In the beginning”. Now let’s say I created a religion where I believed that God came into existence at exactly the same time as He began to create the heavens and the earth. I could look at the first word in the Tanach and say “here is my proof and basis for my beliefs and that basis is the the first word in the Tanach itself and how could any Jew not accept what I am saying when the basis for my belief is the very first word of the Tanach”? However, all the other Jews would answer that while it says, prima facie, “in the beginning”, what it actually means is “when God began” to create the heavens and the earth. If I asked how that could be, all the other Jews would reply that the central basis for the Jewish concept of God is that He has always existed. That is why, as opposed to all pagan mythological stories of their gods, there is no part of the story about how God came into existence. That is why the word for God is made up of the Hebrew verbs for was-is-and will be. I would be told that in the very first sentence of the Tanach, the Jews are making a declaration to all the other religions and beliefs - there is one single all powerful eternal God and He is responsible for everything in the universe.

This is, from the Jewish perspective, exactly what happens when the Christian points to parts of the Tanach for the basis of his/her Christian beliefs. Just as Jews would not accept that the word “In the beginning” leads to the conclusion of a God that was not always eternal, Christian interpretations of our scriptures will never lead us to Christian concepts that are antithetical to Judaism. With all due respect, the results are no less specious from our perspective than a similar exercise would be to you using the Christian scriptures to prove conclusions antithetical to Christianity.

(I apologize in advance if once again in presenting my position I have somehow been insensitive to others feelings and have done my best to be careful considering the highly charged nature of the subject - as for the comment I received about my punctuation- this forum is the only place I get to practice writing in English on a regular basis - so I’m just happy if I have been able to present my points in an understandable manner).
That is a very good post, and a good example.

I always enjoy pointing out that the Genesis story is the only one (well, that I know of) that does not have the universe starting because of conflict between gods. I had not thought about the lack of a creation myth for the Diety himself.

I have never heard it said by official teaching that Judaism did not teach or have universal redemption as a part. I have seen people say or hint at it, but not “The Church says” or the “bible says.”

However, would you agree that Judaism was more of a passive system for telling the Truth of God? It seems like the Jewish people were to be a Holy People (or kingdom, depending on era), and because of that and God working to protect and care for them, others were to be brought to God. Christianity, on the other hand, is more active, where we are to go and teach others WHILE still being an example of a holy people of all to see.

I know that is off topic, but I wanted some Jewish (name removed by moderator)ut
 
This subject is very difficult to discuss because of its sensitivity and because “the proof” is in interpretations of the Tanach in ways that could never be done by Jews to reach conclusions that could never be held to be acceptable to Jews. It is, mutatis mutandis, similar to interpreting Christian scriptures to prove that Yeshua ben Yosef was not your messiah and did not die for your salvation. No Christian could accept such an interpretation of his/her scriptures and would find the conclusions specious, to say the least.

Before I get to my neutral example to demonstrate my point, I often get the feeling on this forum that Christians believe that the concept of the universality of God and redemption for all people, including non Jews, was not part of Judaism and actually was introduced with the creation of Christianity. This is not true and if indeed anyone holds that position I would point them to the book of Yonah (Jonah).

Now for my neutral example on what happens when we go to interpret the Jewish scriptures divorced from Judaism.

Lets take the very first word in the Tanach -בראשית-which is often translated into english as “In the beginning”. Now let’s say I created a religion where I believed that God came into existence at exactly the same time as He began to create the heavens and the earth. I could look at the first word in the Tanach and say “here is my proof and basis for my beliefs and that basis is the the first word in the Tanach itself and how could any Jew not accept what I am saying when the basis for my belief is the very first word of the Tanach”? However, all the other Jews would answer that while it says, prima facie, “in the beginning”, what it actually means is “when God began” to create the heavens and the earth. If I asked how that could be, all the other Jews would reply that the central basis for the Jewish concept of God is that He has always existed. That is why, as opposed to all pagan mythological stories of their gods, there is no part of the story about how God came into existence. That is why the word for God is made up of the Hebrew verbs for was-is-and will be. I would be told that in the very first sentence of the Tanach, the Jews are making a declaration to all the other religions and beliefs - there is one single all powerful eternal God and He is responsible for everything in the universe.

This is, from the Jewish perspective, exactly what happens when the Christian points to parts of the Tanach for the basis of his/her Christian beliefs. Just as Jews would not accept that the word “In the beginning” leads to the conclusion of a God that was not always eternal, Christian interpretations of our scriptures will never lead us to Christian concepts that are antithetical to Judaism. With all due respect, the results are no less specious from our perspective than a similar exercise would be to you using the Christian scriptures to prove conclusions antithetical to Christianity.

(I apologize in advance if once again in presenting my position I have somehow been insensitive to others feelings and have done my best to be careful considering the highly charged nature of the subject - as for the comment I received about my punctuation- this forum is the only place I get to practice writing in English on a regular basis - so I’m just happy if I have been able to present my points in an understandable manner).
There must be some questions on Messianic Judaism.
 
I think the Jewish interpritation really contradicts what was prophecied:

Isaiah 53:2-4

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
 
I think the Jewish interpritation really contradicts what was prophecied:

Isaiah 53:2-4

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
Please understand that it is not my wish to dissuade you in your beliefs. I am including the following links merely for informational purposes for our discussion to show you an example of how Jews would interpret those same passages differently and refute the Christian interpretation to our scriptures. This is merely for the purpose of an example and as you have noticed I have not dealt with your other quoted passages though they could all be responded to similarly. It is not my wish to enter into a detailed discussion concerning this or other passages in the Tanach that Christians find confirm their beliefs. The reasons for this was given in my above post and also due to the sensitivity of the subject matter on a Christian forum.

anti-missionary.com/files/MessianicProphecy_part2_isaiah53i.html

judaismsanswer.com/IS53PART1.pdf
 
Please understand that it is not my wish to dissuade you in your beliefs. I am including the following links merely for informational purposes for our discussion to show you an example of how Jews would interpret those same passages differently and refute the Christian interpretation to our scriptures. This is merely for the purpose of an example and as you have noticed I have not dealt with your other quoted passages though they could all be responded to similarly. It is not my wish to enter into a detailed discussion concerning this or other passages in the Tanach that Christians find confirm their beliefs. The reasons for this was given in my above post and also due to the sensitivity of the subject matter on a Christian forum.

anti-missionary.com/files/MessianicProphecy_part2_isaiah53i.html

judaismsanswer.com/IS53PART1.pdf
Darnit, It’s websensed on my school’s computer. 😦
 
This thread is about why we don’t accept Jesus, something that I’ve explained several times - you just don’t like the answers and keep on talking to me as if I’m supposed to talk about Judaism in the context of Christian thought, Christian interpretations, something I’m not going to do because I’m not a Christian.

Now, if you want to know about the Jewish faith, there are a number of sites that give a good basic description, try Judaism 101, for example.
I already know about that website.
 
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