Why Do the Notes and Introductions in the NAB read like a non believer wrote them?

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I don’t believe these people are working in the same tradition as Saint Jerome. If they are, I am not a Roman Catholic.

Words mean things. Once you maintain that words don’t matter, then you are a relativist.

Jesus said “x” does not mean that Luke made up words that Jesus never said. If the Scriptures say Jesus said “x” and he never said “x” then the scriptures are worthless. You assert it does not matter if Jesus indeed said “x.” I maintain it does matter. If he did not say “x” and the scriptures say he did, then the scriptures are not reliable.
I never asserted any such thing.

How do you propose the scriptures were transmitted onto paper… from event to author to paper?
And how do you define inspiration?

How do you propose that modern Catholic scripture scholars are not working in the same Tradition, when the Church always promotes and encourages scripture scholarship?
 
Why do you find it “unacceptable”?

The earliest complete manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark that we have–the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus, from the early 4th Century–do not contain these verses, for example.
Those verses do not begin appearing in any copies of the manuscripts until the Codex Washingtonianus in the early 5th Century, I believe…and their style and linguistics, as many scholars have observed, are markedly different than the rest of the book.

It would of course be a natural conclusion to consider that these verses may not have been part of the original manuscript, but added centuries later by someone.

Whether that is unacceptable or not to a person, it may be fact.

But…why would it be unacceptable?

.
Because the Council of Trent declared that both of those Chapters were sacred scripture. That’s why it is unacceptable.
 
I never asserted any such thing.

How do you propose the scriptures were transmitted onto paper… from event to author to paper?
And how do you define inspiration?

How do you propose that modern Catholic scripture scholars are not working in the same Tradition, when the Church always promotes and encourages scripture scholarship?
Why yes you did.

For one reason, it seems to me that if Jesus said “x” does not matter. It obviously does not matter if Mary did not in fact speak the words that the Sacred Scripture says she spoke. The NAB notes in the OT are littered with comments like "probably not a true story…
 
Why yes you did.

For one reason, it seems to me that if Jesus said “x” does not matter. It obviously does not matter if Mary did not in fact speak the words that the Sacred Scripture says she spoke. The NAB notes in the OT are littered with comments like "probably not a true story…
If you’re going to claim I asserted something, quote it and rebut it please.

What do you propose is the method of scripture transmission from event to author to paper?
How do you define inspiration?
Oh and how do you propose that modern Catholic scripture scholars are not working in the same Tradition, when the Church always promotes and encourages scripture scholarship?

This would have been basic material in the scripture classes you took.
 
Why yes you did.

For one reason, it seems to me that if Jesus said “x” does not matter. It obviously does not matter if Mary did not in fact speak the words that the Sacred Scripture says she spoke. The NAB notes in the OT are littered with comments like "probably not a true story…
Here is an important quote from the above mentioned PBC document:

The truth of the Gospel account is not compromised because the Evangelists report the Lord’s words and deeds in different order.23 Nor is it hurt because they report His words, not literally but in a variety of ways, while retaining the same meaning.24 As St. Augustine says: "It is quite probable that each Evangelist felt duty-bound to narrate his particular account in the order which God suggested to his memory. At least this would seem to hold true for those items in which order of treatment would not affect the authority or truth of the Gospel. After all, the Holy Spirit distributes His gifts to each as He chooses.25 Since these books were to be so authoritative, He undoubtedly guided and directed the sacred writers as they thought about the things which they were going to write down; but He probably allowed each writer to arrange his narrative as lie saw fit. Hence anyone who uses enough diligence, will be able to discover this order with the help of God."26
 
Here is an important quote from the above mentioned PBC document:

The truth of the Gospel account is not compromised because the Evangelists report the Lord’s words and deeds in different order.23 Nor is it hurt because they report His words, not literally but in a variety of ways, while retaining the same meaning.24 As St. Augustine says: "It is quite probable that each Evangelist felt duty-bound to narrate his particular account in the order which God suggested to his memory. At least this would seem to hold true for those items in which order of treatment would not affect the authority or truth of the Gospel. After all, the Holy Spirit distributes His gifts to each as He chooses.25 Since these books were to be so authoritative, He undoubtedly guided and directed the sacred writers as they thought about the things which they were going to write down; but He probably allowed each writer to arrange his narrative as lie saw fit. Hence anyone who uses enough diligence, will be able to discover this order with the help of God."26
I agree with this statement, but nothing in that statement gives license to make up statements out of thin air. It does give license to edit, but not to fictionalize accounts.
 
Care must be taken "that the heated atmosphere of dispute does not overstep the bounds of mutual charity;*** that such disputes do not give the impression that divine truths and sacred Traditions are being called into question. If the spirit of harmony and full respect for principles does not exist, we cannot expect much progress in this field from the varied studies undertaken by many different people.***"4
 
Masoretic Text

Until 1947, when the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) were discovered, the extant Hebrew manuscripts dated no earlier than a.d. 900, with the exception of the Nash Papyrus dated in the first century b.c., which contained little more than the Ten Commandments. Among the manuscripts of the DSS were manuscripts dating before 100 b.c., so that the oldest known Hebrew manuscripts were pushed back by a thousand years.
Thank you, eyes!

I have to admit, though… I didn’t expect you to help me prove my point!

You see, you claimed that Jerome had access to better materials than current scholars do, and you provided this reference in order to demonstrate that his Hebrew texts would have been copies made in the 4th-5th centuries B.C. (and, of course, soon thereafter destroyed). However, the citation you provided demonstrates that contemporary scholars have access to manuscripts that are far older! For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls and Qumran documents, among which are manuscripts dating in the 1st century A.D. and as early as 100 B.C. In other words, scholars of the 20th-21st centuries have access to Hebrew materials that are 400-500 years more ancient than the ones that St Jerome would have had access to!

Thanks for helping demonstrate my point! 👍
 
Somehow I doubt that you’ve seen Catholics lose their faith over bible interpretations.
Somehow I think I’m better placed to know what I’ve seen.

I have seen young students absolutely gobsmacked by what has been presented in a Catholic university regarding Theology. Students who state that what they have been told there conflicts with what they have been taught their whole lives. That university was one with a high proportion (80%) of teachers who then go out and teach Catholic students in Catholic schools, Many young teachers go out and actively destroy the faith because of bad teaching of Theology which they have received. Teaching which is backed up by ‘authoritative’ interpretations. The professor forbade certain bibles from being brought into class because she considered the footnotes and translations to be ‘pious’ unsophisticated accounts.

I’ve seen atheists enrol in Theology classes in order to actively confront the faith. After pumping themselves up for an intellectual confrontation, these atheists have sat down after 30 minutes in stunned bewilderment as the professor did a much better job at demolishing the Catholic faith than they could.

Make no mistake, there are Theology courses in even Catholic universities specifically designed to get young students to lose their faith and they point to so-called authoritative sources from scholars to help them achieve this.

In front of the whole class the following has been asserted by my theology teacher :

The Trinity was an invention.
The gospels come from a Roman culture of many gods, they are not Jewish in origin.
None of the NT writers knew Jesus.
There was no structural church until Constantine. He changed the face of Christianity and invented many beliefs.
The church was only one strand of Christianity. They brutally repressed other strands and the NT is no more authoritative than rejected texts such as The Gospel of Thomas.
The Catholic Church ‘always wants to be different’ that is why they have different books in their bible as compared to protestants.
There are no miracles. Neither in biblical times nor today. They are believed by unsophisticated ‘pious’ folk.
There was no prophecy in the Bible pointing to Jesus. This was all read in afterwards by ‘pious’ folk.
The gospels evolved over time with each community changing them to suit their current needs and prejudices.
Luke’s gospel was largely written by women. If the Church had known this they wouldn’t have included it in the cannon of scripture.
The story of Adam and Eve was originally a story of how snakes came to be and the snake was originally a good character who wanted the best for mankind before the story was changed.
The movie ‘Life of Brian’ is a better resource for understanding religion than the bible. She told us how she had spoke with her husband the night before about screening the movie during Theology class.
John Cornwell’s book Hitler’s Pope is a fair and important critique of the Catholic Church.
The movie The Da Vinci code does a good job at uncovering a lot of errors in the Catholic church.
Mary was not a virgin. The virgin birth makes no sense, there was no prophecy about a virgin giving birth, Mary bore other children, not just Jesus. James was the full brother of Jesus.
The patriarchal Church made up the virgin story to control and repress women.
Jesus also had 12 women apostles but they were ‘written-out’ of the gospels by a women hating male Church.
Priests are not allowed to marry so that they will be easier to control.
The gospel genealogies through Joseph makes no sense unless Jesus was the biological son of Joseph.
The idea that Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph was probably written in later to ‘give’ Jesus more authority and fit incorrect interpretations of ‘pious’ ideas of prophecy.
It was Peter’s faith that Jesus sad the Church will be built on. This was not Jesus instituting the Papacy.
The Catholic Church started the wars of the Crusades against a peaceful Islamic civilisation and this is a big part of the current problems with terrorism.
Other world religions should be taught during Catholic religion class so as to give students a more rounded understanding of religion.
and at another time … it might be better to remove Jesus from the religion class and assert a more universal teaching of secular ethics so that students do not grow up different from their secular peers.
Her university students have a much more educated view of Christianity than the average priest.
The Bishop (Cardinal Pell) tries very hard to suppress academic freedom in the Theology class but professors are clever enough to get around his meddling.

The above were specifically asserted as fact, not introduced as possible interpretations. The professor always had an assortment of books and magazines at the front of the class that she would bring in each day and entice the students to read. None of the material was Catholic orthodoxy. All were attacking the Church in some way including issues of the magazine ‘Women Church’.

I am sure much more garbage was taught that I can’t remember simply because I tuned out while I saw younger students around me take all of this garbage to heart and believe they now knew what Christianity was. The theology teacher continuously pointed to scholarly interpretations to support her case and never gave the Catholic scholarly position even when asked by students who began to see the Church’s teaching as an unfounded con job.

Please do not tell me that ‘somehow’ you don’t think I have seen this.
 
Thank you, eyes!

I have to admit, though… I didn’t expect you to help me prove my point!

You see, you claimed that Jerome had access to better materials than current scholars do, and you provided this reference in order to demonstrate that his Hebrew texts would have been copies made in the 4th-5th centuries B.C. (and, of course, soon thereafter destroyed). However, the citation you provided demonstrates that contemporary scholars have access to manuscripts that are far older! For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls and Qumran documents, among which are manuscripts dating in the 1st century A.D. and as early as 100 B.C. In other words, scholars of the 20th-21st centuries have access to Hebrew materials that are 400-500 years more ancient than the ones that St Jerome would have had access to!

Thanks for helping demonstrate my point! 👍
How dishonest!

Actually you selectively misquoted me.:rolleyes: If you read the beginning of my quote you will see that Jerome may have had access to scrolls far older than the DSS.

You do understand that scrolls disintegrate with age?

And that the Library of Rome, the Imperial Library of Constantinople had access to scrolls from antiquity, not to mention the remnants of the Library at Alexandria. So what makes you think that Saint Jerome did not have access to these sources? He may have had access to scrolls at least 1500 years older than anything we’ve known about. He certainly had access to Hebrew Scrolls at least 1000 years older than anything we will ever find.

If you still don’t get it and need it spelled out for you, grab a Tan Publishers DR bible and read the intro.

And with that I am adding you to my ignore list.
 
How dishonest!

Actually you selectively misquoted me.:rolleyes: If you read the beginning of my quote you will see that Jerome may have had access to scrolls far older than the DSS.
Really? OK… here’s “the beginning of [your] quote”…
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eyesoftheworld:
Modern Hebrew texts resulted from centuries of copying and preserving ancient Hebrew sacred documents. Unfortunately, the older copies were always discarded. Scribes who copied the worn-out manuscripts destroyed the old documents because of the confidence they had in the veracity and adequacy of the new ones. Until 1947, when the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) were discovered, the extant Hebrew manuscripts dated no earlier than a.d. 900
There’s nothing there that suggests that “Jerome may have had access to scrolls far older than the DSS.” Unless I misunderstand what you mean by ‘the beginning of your quote’, it sure seems that I’m not the one being dishonest… 😉
You do understand that scrolls disintegrate with age?
Absolutely! Yet… that’s not what your quote asserts – rather, your quote asserts that, in the timeframe of Jerome’s scholarship, Jewish scribes copied and then destroyed their source manuscripts.

How does that, then, correspond with your assertion of ‘disintegration with age’? How does that refute the fact that your own citation demonstrates that manuscripts more ancient than those available to Jerome are now available to contemporary scholars?
So what makes you think that Saint Jerome did not have access to these sources? He may have had access to scrolls at least 1500 years older than anything we’ve known about.
Interesting! When the NAB asserts things that ‘may be’, you rail against those claims; yet, you yourself are willing to make claims about things that Jerome ‘may have had access to’. Double standard much, do you? 😉
He certainly had access to Hebrew Scrolls at least 1000 years older than anything we will ever find.
Not according to your source, which claims that Hebrew scribes immediately destroyed the sources from which they copied their scrolls. C’mon, now… you can have it one way or the other… but not both. 😉
And with that I am adding you to my ignore list.
Of course. After all, that is the easiest way to deal with objections that you can’t effectively address… 😉

Peace,
G.
 
How very dishonest of you once again to selectively quote me… either that or You must have scored very low in reading comprehension on the SAT. Go back and reread the quote, think about it for a while, and then think if your clever retort makes any sense.

If you have any sense you’ll retract your last post. If you don’t I will spell it out for you.
 
first think about what I said for 24 hours, and if you don’t get it by then I most certainly will.

and will a forum elder please pm me and let me know who the forum trolls are…I am seeking answers and I don’t want to waste my time with unprofitable arguments with fools.
 
first think about what I said for 24 hours, and if you don’t get it by then I most certainly will.
👍

Please do. In the meantime, please feel free to keep editing what you originally posted, so it seems that I ‘responded’ to something that you later wrote. After all, that’ll help make your case that it seems that I’m ‘dishonest’… 😉

Blessings,
G.
 
👍

Please do. In the meantime, please feel free to keep editing what you originally posted, so it seems that I ‘responded’ to something that you later wrote. After all, that’ll help make your case that it seems that I’m ‘dishonest’… 😉

Blessings,
G.
what in the world are you talking about?:rolleyes:
 
If the footnotes in the NAB are offensive then don’t read them. Problem solved.

I don’t like white pants so I don’t wear them. I don’t like Thai food so I don’t eat it. I don’t like the footnotes in the NAB so I don’t read them. If you don’t like the NAB then throw it in the garbage and get a different Bible. That’s all. What’s the big deal? 🤷

And why get all bent out of shape because it exists and because other people read it? What does arguing about it and making sarcastic remarks to other people about it on an internet message board accomplish? Just throw it away, get a DR or RSV, read that and move on with the rest of life, that’s all.

Seriously, I think we make up our own problems, and then project them onto the entire civilized world as a major crisis.

-Tim-
Secularism and relitivism are the works of Satan…and the NAB notes seem to me to be a byproduct of that. I see that as a problem as a new convert. Is it too much to ask to have a Catholic Study Bible that upholds the faith rather than cast doubts about the authenticity of Sacred Scripture?
 
Somehow I think I’m better placed to know what I’ve seen.

I have seen young students absolutely gobsmacked by what has been presented in a Catholic university regarding Theology. Students who state that what they have been told there conflicts with what they have been taught their whole lives. That university was one with a high proportion (80%) of teachers who then go out and teach Catholic students in Catholic schools, Many young teachers go out and actively destroy the faith because of bad teaching of Theology which they have received. Teaching which is backed up by ‘authoritative’ interpretations. The professor forbade certain bibles from being brought into class because she considered the footnotes and translations to be ‘pious’ unsophisticated accounts.

I’ve seen atheists enrol in Theology classes in order to actively confront the faith. After pumping themselves up for an intellectual confrontation, these atheists have sat down after 30 minutes in stunned bewilderment as the professor did a much better job at demolishing the Catholic faith than they could.

Make no mistake, there are Theology courses in even Catholic universities specifically designed to get young students to lose their faith and they point to so-called authoritative sources from scholars to help them achieve this.

In front of the whole class the following has been asserted by my theology teacher :

The Trinity was an invention.
The gospels come from a Roman culture of many gods, they are not Jewish in origin.
None of the NT writers knew Jesus.
There was no structural church until Constantine. He changed the face of Christianity and invented many beliefs.
The church was only one strand of Christianity. They brutally repressed other strands and the NT is no more authoritative than rejected texts such as The Gospel of Thomas.
The Catholic Church ‘always wants to be different’ that is why they have different books in their bible as compared to protestants.
There are no miracles. Neither in biblical times nor today. They are believed by unsophisticated ‘pious’ folk.
There was no prophecy in the Bible pointing to Jesus. This was all read in afterwards by ‘pious’ folk.
The gospels evolved over time with each community changing them to suit their current needs and prejudices.
Luke’s gospel was largely written by women. If the Church had known this they wouldn’t have included it in the cannon of scripture.
The story of Adam and Eve was originally a story of how snakes came to be and the snake was originally a good character who wanted the best for mankind before the story was changed.
The movie ‘Life of Brian’ is a better resource for understanding religion than the bible. She told us how she had spoke with her husband the night before about screening the movie during Theology class.
John Cornwell’s book Hitler’s Pope is a fair and important critique of the Catholic Church.
The movie The Da Vinci code does a good job at uncovering a lot of errors in the Catholic church.
Mary was not a virgin. The virgin birth makes no sense, there was no prophecy about a virgin giving birth, Mary bore other children, not just Jesus. James was the full brother of Jesus.
The patriarchal Church made up the virgin story to control and repress women.
Jesus also had 12 women apostles but they were ‘written-out’ of the gospels by a women hating male Church.
Priests are not allowed to marry so that they will be easier to control.
The gospel genealogies through Joseph makes no sense unless Jesus was the biological son of Joseph.
The idea that Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph was probably written in later to ‘give’ Jesus more authority and fit incorrect interpretations of ‘pious’ ideas of prophecy.
It was Peter’s faith that Jesus sad the Church will be built on. This was not Jesus instituting the Papacy.
The Catholic Church started the wars of the Crusades against a peaceful Islamic civilisation and this is a big part of the current problems with terrorism.
Other world religions should be taught during Catholic religion class so as to give students a more rounded understanding of religion.
and at another time … it might be better to remove Jesus from the religion class and assert a more universal teaching of secular ethics so that students do not grow up different from their secular peers.
Her university students have a much more educated view of Christianity than the average priest.
The Bishop (Cardinal Pell) tries very hard to suppress academic freedom in the Theology class but professors are clever enough to get around his meddling.

The above were specifically asserted as fact, not introduced as possible interpretations. The professor always had an assortment of books and magazines at the front of the class that she would bring in each day and entice the students to read. None of the material was Catholic orthodoxy. All were attacking the Church in some way including issues of the magazine ‘Women Church’.

I am sure much more garbage was taught that I can’t remember simply because I tuned out while I saw younger students around me take all of this garbage to heart and believe they now knew what Christianity was. The theology teacher continuously pointed to scholarly interpretations to support her case and never gave the Catholic scholarly position even when asked by students who began to see the Church’s teaching as an unfounded con job.

Please do not tell me that ‘somehow’ you don’t think I have seen this.
Churchmilitant.tv host Michael Voris tells of going to Notre Dame University in Indiana, a well,known Catholic college, and getting fed this same kind of stuff in classes. He says that many so called Catholic universities are perfect places to go if you want to lose your faith.!
 
Thanks LEGO, I’ll look Michael Voris up on the net.

The only good thing I can say about this is that the course was so ridiculously ‘over the top’ and so intellectually bankrupt that I believe many who have had to endure it, who are not connected to the academic/educational part of the Church are now motivated to get involved and ‘fix up’ such problems.

Something went very wrong in the last couple of generations in the Church, at least in my part of the world.
 
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