Why do they choose evil?

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Agustino

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Hey everyone,

As I have been reading through the Scriptures, I have noticed, that while Jesus Christ was on earth, the demons he exorcised out of people recognized who He was, as well as His power over them:

“What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are–the Holy One of God!” -Mark 1:24

So if Satan knows that Jesus is stronger than he and has the capacity to destroy him, then why does he still choose evil? If I would have an enemy, and I realized that my enemy was stronger than I, I would just surrender, for what would be the point of fighting? I would just hurt myself. So why is it that, all the while Satan knows his end is in the lake of fire, and YET, he still perseveres in his rebellion against God? Why does he put so much effort against God if he knows that in the end he will burn? I understand that in the beginning Lucifer was one of God’s most loyal angels, until he became full of pride and wanted to be his own god. So why did he become so full of pride? And if at that point he had a change of heart against God, why is it impossible for him to have a change of heart and repent in the future? To me this can only be solved if we assume that Satan not only hates everyone else, but also hates himself. Satan thus being some sort of nihilist who thinks it were better NOT to exist, rather than to exist under the rule of God. Is my interpretation correct, or am I missing some aspect of Scriptures that I haven’t taken into account?

Basically my problem is that I cannot understand why someone, especially an angel which has much better knowledge and intelligence compared to a human being, would choose to rebel against God knowing that God is stronger than he, and that 100% certain he will be defeated. I mean what would be the point of such an action? To me it sounds just like a way to commit suicide… So does Satan think that not existing is better than to exist under the rule of God? I’m not asking this because I don’t believe the Scriptures, but just because I’m trying to understand them. I myself have recently become a believer in Christ, gave my life to Him, and now I’m studying the Scriptures, spending even 1-2 hours on a single chapter. I really appreciate all your answers and (name removed by moderator)uts on this matter! Thank you!
 
There are some who believe that the angels were given one chance to decide whether to follow God or not (and some of those say that this happened even before receiving the beatific vision).

I think it just boils down to free will. Just as man has chosen to reject God, so did some of the angels. Lucifer was the highest angel before their fall. He just chose to control his own will rather than following the will of God. And now his will is that which is always against God.
 
I don’t know about Satan, but it seems human nature to rebel even against those who are stronger.

I’ve always found it interesting that the desert fathers seem to use “demon” and “thoughts” interchangeably. The “noonday demon”, for example, characterizes an apathy towards God and the spiritual life. I find that very early, pre-scientific, association very insightful.
 
Agustino said:
Hey everyone,

As I have been reading through the Scriptures, I have noticed, that while Jesus Christ was on earth, the demons he exorcised out of people recognized who He was, as well as His power over them:

“What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are–the Holy One of God!” -Mark 1:24

So if Satan knows that Jesus is stronger than he and has the capacity to destroy him, then why does he still choose evil? If I would have an enemy, and I realized that my enemy was stronger than I, I would just surrender, for what would be the point of fighting? I would just hurt myself. So why is it that, all the while Satan knows his end is in the lake of fire, and YET, he still perseveres in his rebellion against God? Why does he put so much effort against God if he knows that in the end he will burn? I understand that in the beginning Lucifer was one of God’s most loyal angels, until he became full of pride and wanted to be his own god. So why did he become so full of pride? And if at that point he had a change of heart against God, why is it impossible for him to have a change of heart and repent in the future? To me this can only be solved if we assume that Satan not only hates everyone else, but also hates himself. Satan thus being some sort of nihilist who thinks it were better NOT to exist, rather than to exist under the rule of God. Is my interpretation correct, or am I missing some aspect of Scriptures that I haven’t taken into account?

Basically my problem is that I cannot understand why someone, especially an angel which has much better knowledge and intelligence compared to a human being, would choose to rebel against God knowing that God is stronger than he, and that 100% certain he will be defeated. I mean what would be the point of such an action? To me it sounds just like a way to commit suicide… So does Satan think that not existing is better than to exist under the rule of God? I’m not asking this because I don’t believe the Scriptures, but just because I’m trying to understand them. I myself have recently become a believer in Christ, gave my life to Him, and now I’m studying the Scriptures, spending even 1-2 hours on a single chapter. I really appreciate all your answers and (name removed by moderator)uts on this matter! Thank you!
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According to Scripture, Tradition (with a capital “T”) and St. Thomas Acquinas, Doctor of the Church, we learn that the angels, who have a much higher intelligence than we have, were given a test by God before they were admitted to the full beatitude of the Presence of God.

These angels all were given so much knowledge beforehand, that they would know at a glance what the outcome of their choice would be. That is unlike us who learn by faults and sins, getting up again, etc.

So, when 1/3 of them, led by Lucifer who wanted to be like God, fell by the sin of pride (Non Serviam) they were fixed in their choice for all eternity. They did not want to serve or bow down to God’s will. (Some of this is revealed in the book of Revelation.)

Some things are so mysterious to us, with our finite minds. What is taught regarding the angels makes a lot of sense to me, and I thank St. Thomas Acquinas for cooperating with the grace of God to help us understand through his theological writings.
 
Michael_Allen said:
I don’t know about Satan, but it seems human nature to rebel even against those who are stronger.

I’ve always found it interesting that the desert fathers seem to use “demon” and “thoughts” interchangeably. The “noonday demon”, for example, characterizes an apathy towards God and the spiritual life. I find that very early, pre-scientific, association very insightful.
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It is my opinion that the catechesis on the angels should be taught and explained. We have a supernatural faith, and the meanings of words today can confuse us as to the activity of the fallen angels. We who are alive on this planet right now have to contend with the “world, the flesh, and the devil.”
The devil is on a leash and God will not allow him to tempt us beyond our strength, as we are given the grace to resist and become stronger, by using our free will to choose God’s will.

My pastor explained about the rebellion of the angels when I was very young, and I never forgot it.

We have a lot of teaching books available, one of which is “Angels and Demons” by Peter Kreeft.
 
Agustino said:
Hey everyone,

As I have been reading through the Scriptures, I have noticed, that while Jesus Christ was on earth, the demons he exorcised out of people recognized who He was, as well as His power over them:

“What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are–the Holy One of God!” -Mark 1:24

So if Satan knows that Jesus is stronger than he and has the capacity to destroy him, then why does he still choose evil? If I would have an enemy, and I realized that my enemy was stronger than I, I would just surrender, for what would be the point of fighting? I would just hurt myself. So why is it that, all the while Satan knows his end is in the lake of fire, and YET, he still perseveres in his rebellion against God? Why does he put so much effort against God if he knows that in the end he will burn? I understand that in the beginning Lucifer was one of God’s most loyal angels, until he became full of pride and wanted to be his own god. So why did he become so full of pride? And if at that point he had a change of heart against God, why is it impossible for him to have a change of heart and repent in the future? To me this can only be solved if we assume that Satan not only hates everyone else, but also hates himself. Satan thus being some sort of nihilist who thinks it were better NOT to exist, rather than to exist under the rule of God. Is my interpretation correct, or am I missing some aspect of Scriptures that I haven’t taken into account?

Basically my problem is that I cannot understand why someone, especially an angel which has much better knowledge and intelligence compared to a human being, would choose to rebel against God knowing that God is stronger than he, and that 100% certain he will be defeated. I mean what would be the point of such an action? To me it sounds just like a way to commit suicide… So does Satan think that not existing is better than to exist under the rule of God? I’m not asking this because I don’t believe the Scriptures, but just because I’m trying to understand them. I myself have recently become a believer in Christ, gave my life to Him, and now I’m studying the Scriptures, spending even 1-2 hours on a single chapter. I really appreciate all your answers and (name removed by moderator)uts on this matter! Thank you!
Click to expand...
In regards to your question about whether Satan could repent “in the future”, such is not possible because the angels do not experience time as we do here on earth. Their choice for or against God is irrevocable.

Here’s how the Catechism explains it:

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.”
 
bzkoss236 said:
There are some who believe that the angels were given one chance to decide whether to follow God or not (and some of those say that this happened even before receiving the beatific vision).

I think it just boils down to free will. Just as man has chosen to reject God, so did some of the angels. Lucifer was the highest angel before their fall. He just chose to control his own will rather than following the will of God. And now his will is that which is always against God.
Click to expand...
There is a difference, following the story, these angels and demons are sure that God exists without any doubt unlike humans, not sure if the concept of free will can be applied on humans in that manner.
 
One could put it this way - when Satan and his angels made the choice to refuse to serve God, their very natures were irrevocably changed.
 
SpringWater said:
There is a difference, following the story, these angels and demons are sure that God exists without any doubt unlike humans, not sure if the concept of free will can be applied on humans in that manner.
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The belief goes that humans did know of God’s existence without a doubt at the beginning of humanity, but began to disobey him, and then some fell out of knowledge of him to the point where we are today.
 
We don’t have a full understanding of the circumstances the angels existed in, however there is a difference between imperfect contrition and perfect contrition. Some of the angels encountered in the gospel were outright flippant towards Jesus, but the angels in the story of the Demon Possessed Man were extremely afraid and subservient towards him, begging him not to send them to the Abyss before the appointed time. This does not mean that they were penitent in the way a human sinner might be, it merely means they were displaying imperfect contrition, which is a counterfeit form of penance that is driven exclusively by fear (human sinners can, should, and usually do exhibit fear in their own repentance, but that is not the exclusive reason, otherwise it wouldn’t be repentance at all).

So we actually see in the gospels an example of some angels that are in a state of surrender towards God. Perhaps a less severe fate awaits them than other angels, we do not know, but we do know that they are all the same damned, and that they are not genuinely repentant. Because the decision of the angels to choose between God or themselves is one that was already finalized, it is not possible for them to repent.

If you look at it another way, suppose a human sinner is in Hell and he genuinely repents to God. Technically speaking, it could be said that he would be saved and go to heaven. However, we know that this will never happen because God is omniscient and he is already able to decipher between those that are penitent and those that are not, and those that are not will go to Hell. Probably every single person, down to Satan himself, will eventually display imperfect contrition towards God and beg for mercy, but it will not be genuine repentance, nor will it ever be.
 
Dorothy said:
It is my opinion that the catechesis on the angels should be taught and explained. We have a supernatural faith, and the meanings of words today can confuse us as to the activity of the fallen angels. We who are alive on this planet right now have to contend with the “world, the flesh, and the devil.”
The devil is on a leash and God will not allow him to tempt us beyond our strength, as we are given the grace to resist and become stronger, by using our free will to choose God’s will.

My pastor explained about the rebellion of the angels when I was very young, and I never forgot it.

We have a lot of teaching books available, one of which is “Angels and Demons” by Peter Kreeft.
Click to expand...
Something I think we do have to face up to is that what used to be considered “demonic” is now understood as a psychiatric disease. What amazes me is that the desert fathers, especially St. John Cassian, identified this link between “demons” and “thoughts” way back in the fourth century. To be demon-possessed and to have be possessed by certain unwanted thoughts are two ways of looking at the same thing, perhaps.

As for angels in scripture, perhaps sometimes they are a theophany, as in the case of the visitors that Abraham entertained?

Anyway, interesting topic!

God bless +

Michael
 
Michael_Allen said:
Something I think we do have to face up to is that what used to be considered “demonic” is now understood as a psychiatric disease. What amazes me is that the desert fathers, especially St. John Cassian, identified this link between “demons” and “thoughts” way back in the fourth century. To be demon-possessed and to have be possessed by certain unwanted thoughts are two ways of looking at the same thing, perhaps.

As for angels in scripture, perhaps sometimes they are a theophany, as in the case of the visitors that Abraham entertained?

Anyway, interesting topic!

God bless +

Michael
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It is true that mental and emotional problems may have been mistaken, at times, to be demonic obsession or possession.

It remains that there are the good angels, and the bad angels, and that problems can occur with the bad ones.

That is why I don’t agree that simply human thoughts and demonic influence are two ways of looking at the same thing. The good angels can inspire us with good thoughts, and the bad angels do the opposite.
I don’t know exactly what St. John Cassian said, but I am sure his (name removed by moderator)ut helped.

Good and bad thoughts can come from ourselves as well, according to the habits we have developed.

We are still contending with the “world, the flesh, and the devil.”

The word “angel” means messenger, and it can be used in several ways. When my friend brings me over chicken soup when I have a cold, she is an “angel” . (human messenger of love.)

The good angels, pure spirit, are messengers for God and the hierarchies of the angels serve Him in many different ways.

I am not a Sacred Scripture scholar, but yes, the visitors that Abraham entertained may have been a theophany directly from the Lord.

In Jesus and Mary,

Dorothy
 
Agustino said:
Basically my problem is that I cannot understand why someone, especially an angel which has much better knowledge and intelligence compared to a human being, would choose to rebel against God knowing that God is stronger than he, and that 100% certain he will be defeated.
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Because submitting to God is not easy, especially for those who are proud, and especially when God says he is “gentle and humble in heart” (Matthew 11:29). It is not known whether demons (and Satan) can repent. It is surely known that they will not repent. I think that after their fall, demons might have had a chance to repent, but chose not to, because repentance requires humility, and they don’t like humility.
 
Joe_5859 said:
In regards to your question about whether Satan could repent “in the future”, such is not possible because the angels do not experience time as we do here on earth. Their choice for or against God is irrevocable.

Here’s how the Catechism explains it:

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.”
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This is close to the way I learned about this “angel problem”.
I was told that angels being spiritual beings do not experience time the way we do. Time is something that allows us to change our minds or become different from experiences. Angels do not have this time experience but God allowed them to make a choice for or against Him. In this so called test, the angels decision for or against God is then fixed for they cannot change their minds since they are outside of time. We have that privilege to make a bad decision and change our minds and repent. God is merciful to us for this privilege if we use it in time.
 
Agustino said:
Hey everyone,

As I have been reading through the Scriptures, I have noticed, that while Jesus Christ was on earth, the demons he exorcised out of people recognized who He was, as well as His power over them:

“What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are–the Holy One of God!” -Mark 1:24

So if Satan knows that Jesus is stronger than he and has the capacity to destroy him, then why does he still choose evil? If I would have an enemy, and I realized that my enemy was stronger than I, I would just surrender, for what would be the point of fighting? I would just hurt myself. So why is it that, all the while Satan knows his end is in the lake of fire, and YET, he still perseveres in his rebellion against God? Why does he put so much effort against God if he knows that in the end he will burn? I understand that in the beginning Lucifer was one of God’s most loyal angels, until he became full of pride and wanted to be his own god. So why did he become so full of pride? And if at that point he had a change of heart against God, why is it impossible for him to have a change of heart and repent in the future? To me this can only be solved if we assume that Satan not only hates everyone else, but also hates himself. Satan thus being some sort of nihilist who thinks it were better NOT to exist, rather than to exist under the rule of God. Is my interpretation correct, or am I missing some aspect of Scriptures that I haven’t taken into account?

Basically my problem is that I cannot understand why someone, especially an angel which has much better knowledge and intelligence compared to a human being, would choose to rebel against God knowing that God is stronger than he, and that 100% certain he will be defeated. I mean what would be the point of such an action? To me it sounds just like a way to commit suicide… So does Satan think that not existing is better than to exist under the rule of God? I’m not asking this because I don’t believe the Scriptures, but just because I’m trying to understand them. I myself have recently become a believer in Christ, gave my life to Him, and now I’m studying the Scriptures, spending even 1-2 hours on a single chapter. I really appreciate all your answers and (name removed by moderator)uts on this matter! Thank you!
Click to expand...
Two things to consider: intelligence and love.

As to the first, intelligence, we know that there are many people who are very very great intellectuals, but do not believe in God.

As to the second, love, we know that there are many simple grandma types who are very great at loving, and especially God.

Who is better off?
 
From Pope John Paul II’s Catechesis on Angels How are we to understand such opposition and rebellion against God in beings endowed with such profound and enlightened intelligence? What can be the motive for such a radical and irreversible choice against God? Of a hatred so profound as to appear solely the fruit of folly? The Fathers of the Church and theologians do not hesitate to speak of a “blindness” produced by the overrating of the perfection of their own being, driven to the point of ignoring God’s supremacy, which requires instead an act of docile and obedient subjection. All this summed up concisely in the words: “I will not serve” Jer 2:20), which manifest the radical and irreversible refusal to take part in the building up of the kingdom of God in the created world. Satan, the rebellious spirit, wishes to have his own kingdom, not that of God, and he rises up as the first “adversary” of the Creator, the opponent of Providence, and antagonist of God’s loving wisdom. From Satan’s rebellion and sin, and likewise from that of man, we must conclude by accepting the wise experience of Scripture which states: “In pride there is ruin” (Tob 4:13).
 
fred_conty said:
Two things to consider: intelligence and love.

As to the first, intelligence, we know that there are many people who are very very great intellectuals, but do not believe in God.

As to the second, love, we know that there are many simple grandma types who are very great at loving, and especially God.

Who is better off?
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Are you making a case against intelligence? Or are you saying that simple minds are the ones that choose God? I don’t see it as either or.
 
MarcoPolo said:
From Pope John Paul II’s Catechesis on Angels **How are we to understand such opposition and rebellion against God in beings endowed with such profound and enlightened intelligence? What can be the motive for such a radical and irreversible choice against God? Of a hatred so profound as to appear solely the fruit of folly? The Fathers of the Church and theologians do not hesitate to speak of a “blindness” produced by the overrating of the perfection of their own being, driven to the point of ignoring God’s supremacy, which requires instead an act of docile and obedient subjection. All this summed up concisely in the words: “I will not serve” Jer 2:20), which manifest the radical and irreversible refusal to take part in the building up of the kingdom of God in the created world. Satan, the rebellious spirit, wishes to have his own kingdom, not that of God, and he rises up as the first “adversary” of the Creator, the opponent of Providence, and antagonist of God’s loving wisdom. From Satan’s rebellion and sin, and likewise from that of man, we must conclude by accepting the wise experience of Scripture which states: “In pride there is ruin” (Tob 4:13).
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I love Pope John Paul II! 🙂
 
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