Why do Vatican documents so often use the term 'a certain'?

[Hokomai]

I have noticed that Vatican documents often use the term ‘a certain’ before nouns: ‘a certain tendency’, ‘a certain concern’ etc. Now I know that the term is good English in that it indicates the writer is thinking of a specific example, but it often seems to be used when there is no reason to do so. Is it a Latin influence? If you go to the Holy See website and search on it, you will see what I mean. Apologies if this is the wrong forum, but I thought there might be some experts on Latin here.

 

[MarkThompson]

I have noticed that Vatican documents often use the term ‘a certain’ before nouns: ‘a certain tendency’, ‘a certain concern’ etc. Now I know that the term is good English in that it indicates the writer is thinking of a specific example, but it often seems to be used when there is no reason to do so. Is it a Latin influence? If you go to the Holy See website and search on it, you will see what I mean. Apologies if this is the wrong forum, but I thought there might be some experts on Latin here.

Yes, good guess, it is a Latin influence. Latin does not have articles, thus it cannot readily differentiate between the indefinite usage (“a” or “an”) and the definite (“the”). The result, more in modern Latin I think than in classical, is frequently to signal the indefinite with the use of the pronoun quidam, which means “a certain one, some, somebody.” The most common translation is “a certain.” If this were not done, then the Latin would basically just say “tendency” or “concern,” and you have to guess whether the definite or indefinite is meant. If you guess wrong there is a possibility of confusion, at least momentarily, if you take such a term as meaning “the concern” (which concern? has one been mentioned?) where only the indefinite “a concern” was actually meant. Thus e.g. in Redemptionis Sacramentum no. 40 you have officium quoddam liturgicum specificum, “a certain specific liturgical ministry”; in no. 45 cuidam «clericalizationi», “a certain ‘clericalization’”; etc. You also often see quodammodo, “in a certain way,” and so forth. In most of these cases “a certain” could simply be replaced with “a” or “an” with the same meaning; it is usually only because of the limitations inherent in the Latin language than an extra word has been supplied at all.

 

[Jim_Roberts]

I have noticed that Vatican documents often use the term ‘a certain’ before nouns: ‘a certain tendency’, ‘a certain concern’ etc. Now I know that the term is good English in that it indicates the writer is thinking of a specific example, but it often seems to be used when there is no reason to do so. Is it a Latin influence? If you go to the Holy See website and search on it, you will see what I mean. Apologies if this is the wrong forum, but I thought there might be some experts on Latin here.

********************************************************************************************************You have to calculate Latin to get the meaning of nouns, pronouns, etc.

It is correct grammar or it could meann what kind?

JESUS I TRUST IN YOU

 

[MarkThompson]

********************************************************************************************************You have to calculate Latin to get the meaning of nouns, pronouns, etc.

It is correct grammar or it could meann what kind?

JESUS I TRUST IN YOU

What?

 

[Edmundus1581]

Yes, good guess, it is a Latin influence…

A most enjoyable read! Thankyou!

I look forward to spotting “a certain” in Vatican documents in the future, and relating it back to this post.

Thankyou Hokomai for your observation and question, and well done with your correct guess about the explanation.

 

[Hokomai]

Thanks Mark and Edmundus. I had a browse through the CCC and couldn’t see many ‘a certain’ popping up in the same way. Was the Catechism originally written in Latin?

 

[MarkThompson]

Thanks Mark and Edmundus. I had a browse through the CCC and couldn’t see many ‘a certain’ popping up in the same way. Was the Catechism originally written in Latin?

I seem to remember reading that it was mostly written in French (?) and then back-translated into Latin, from which the other translations were made. Mostly, though, I think a decision was made by the English translators not to use “a certain” where “a” or “an” would do – or something else, or nothing at all. All in all I find the English translation of the Catechism to read very naturally, not like something translated, and that’s reflected in some of the choices that were made such as not shoehorning some word into the English where the Latin has the extra word quidam. Here were the first few examples I found in a brief glance:
Cur sacramentum quoddam Reconciliationis post Baptismum?
Why a Sacrament of Reconciliation after Baptism?

… quasdam detegit « vias » ut ad Dei accedat cognitionem.
These “ways” of approaching God from …

Scriptura magnos quosdam « nationum » veneratur homines, …
The Bible venerates several great figures among the Gentiles …

… quarum quaedam Ecclesiae sunt agnitae auctoritate.
… some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church.
In all these cases “certain” could have been used – “certain ‘ways’ of approaching God,” “certain great ones among the Gentiles,” etc., but a conscious decision seems to have been made not to do that.

 

[thistle]

********************************************************************************************************You have to calculate Latin to get the meaning of nouns, pronouns, etc.

It is correct grammar or it could meann what kind?

JESUS I TRUST IN YOU

Sorry but what on earth does that mean?
Its just gibberish!

 

[ProVobis]

I had a browse through the CCC and couldn’t see many ‘a certain’ popping up in the same way. Was the Catechism originally written in Latin?

The Catechism of Trent was.

The Baltimore Catechism was written in English.

And the recent catechism, as some have pointed out, was written (thought-out) in French.

I’m sure there were other catechisms along the way and I don’t know what the original mindsets were behind those. A lot is lost through translations but that should be of no new news to many.

 

[Hokomai]

Thanks again Mark. The CCC I agree reads like an original English document and is very clear. The use of “a certain” I have realised on further reflection, actually intriduces a tone of ‘uncertainty’ as if the author was not quite able to put their finger on the right word. One of those cases where the literal meaning turns into its opposite? It would be interesting to know if there is a standard procedure for translation at the Vatican and if so what it is.

 

[ProVobis]

It would be interesting to know if there is a standard procedure for translation at the Vatican and if so what it is.

I believe Fr. Reginald Foster is the Pope’s Latinist now.

youtube.com/watch?v=llpQGhEmGzY

My understanding is that once it gets translated into Latin, the bishops’ conferences translate it from there. (There are hundreds of vernaculars.) Or have their own committees (like the ICEL) do it.

 

[MarkThompson]

Thanks again Mark. The CCC I agree reads like an original English document and is very clear. The use of “a certain” I have realised on further reflection, actually intriduces a tone of ‘uncertainty’ as if the author was not quite able to put their finger on the right word. One of those cases where the literal meaning turns into its opposite?

You’re right that it can sound like it means “a specific one I have in mind (though I’m not saying which),” when all that’s generally intended is “some.”

It would be interesting to know if there is a standard procedure for translation at the Vatican and if so what it is.

I don’t know, but I’m sure there are different processes at work for something like a communiqué from the Vatican State Department versus an important book intended for popular consumption like the Catechism.

 

[Edmundus1581]

It came up in the Mass texts today - the memorial of St Martha! The communion antiphon was “Jesus went to a certain town and…”. (Sorry, I don’t have the book with me). It was so nice to see that and recall this conversation!

The English missal is, of course, a translation of the Roman Missal.

 

[MarkThompson]

It came up in the Mass texts today - the memorial of St Martha! The communion antiphon was “Jesus went to a certain town and…”. (Sorry, I don’t have the book with me). It was so nice to see that and recall this conversation!

The English missal is, of course, a translation of the Roman Missal.

Lk 10:38:

Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain town: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.

Factum est autem dum irent et ipse intravit in quoddam castellum et mulier quaedam Martha nomine excepit illum in domum suam