Why do we believe in eternal torment for the unbelievers?

[jlhargus]

I had hoped to post this before the discussion ended but it took awhile to get it together. I hope it will be of benefit to someone. I discussed this topic about a year ago.
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God can DESTROY both body and soul. Men are able to kill the body…in this life. But God is able to take away this life and eternal life God was saying men will kill you…take away this life, but instead fear the one who can take this life and the next…for there is no resurrection from the “second death”.

JL: You claim body and soul are the same. I am glad to see you say God can DESTROY BOTH, if God can DESTROY both body and soul, their must be life beside the body to DESTROY. You say, men are able to kill the body…in this life, but God is able to take away this life AND eternal life. I would say, God gives eternal life, he never ever takes away eternal life. We choose or reject eternal life in our earthly life. One either has eternal life, when killed on earth or not, If a person is killed in this life in a state of sin separated from God, he does not have an eternal life, FOR GOD TO TAKE AWAY
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The SOUL ( which is the man)…HAS A BODY. All souls people have bodies. We are a person with a body.

JL: I agree, “the Soul HAS A BODY. All souls, people have bodies, BOTH make one nature of a living human being=man=person. In Mt10:28 Our Lord reveals the nature of a human being, IS BOTH BODY AND SOUL. Our Lord also reveals, at bodily death the soul lives on and God alone has authority over the disposition of the soul. Mt10:28 And FEAR NOT THEM which KILL THE BODY, but are NOT ABLE TO KILL THE SOUL: but rather FEAR HIM which is ABLE TO DESTROY BOTH soul AND body in hell. [CAPS added]
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Have you ever seen a person with out a body??? …but the soul is the person!!! A person with a body.

JL: No, I have never seen a person without a body, but I have seen a body that is not a person, but a corps, because it has no soul. That’s what death is, the soul separates from the body, the HUMAN BEING is separated, cut off from earthly life, the mortal body returns to dust. The immortal soul, goes back to God who gave it for judgement. James 2:26 the body without the spirit is dead. A human being IS BOTH body and soul, which make up the one nature of man, as our Lord reveals in Mt10:28. You even state, the SOUL IS THE PERSON, A person WITH a body. Distinguishing BOTH a soul AND body, but you camouflage the word soul, with the word person, to avoid the obvious, that it is BOTH, body AND soul, which make up the one nature of a human being, as Mt10:28 reveals.
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You keep thinking a “soul” is something outside the person. You think soul is something separate that lives on without a body.

JL: In Mt10:28 Our Lord seems to keep thinking the soul lives on without a body and only God has disposition of the soul. A body is not a human being and a soul is not a human being, they are the two components that make up the one nature of a human being, a human being is BOTH soul and body, as our Lord tells to us in Mt10:28.

faith.org.uk/Publications/Magazines/Mar08/Mar08BodyAndSoul-RediscoveringCatholicOrthodoxy.html Of course we do not teach that the soul is in any way a separate entity, only inhabiting the body as a temporary resident, so to speak. Dualism in that sense is indeed alien to the Catholic faith. The human person is a single entity defined by material and spiritual components such that the spiritual soul is metaphysically the “form of the body” (cf. CCC 362-368).
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You think soul is something separate that lives on without a body. IT’s NOT! All Animals are souls…Did you know that???

JL: Yes I do know that, so does our Lord. Our Lord seems to be under the impression man’s nature is BOTH body AND soul, and the soul lives on after bodily death, as he clearly reveals in Mt 10:28 …fear not them which KILL THE BODY, but are NOT ABLE TO KILL THE SOUL: but rather FEAR HIM which is ABLE TO DESTROY BOTH soul AND body in hell.] It couldn’t be stated more clearly, man’s soul lives after bodily death, God alone has authority over the soul’s disposition or judgement. [CAPS added]
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The word “soul” comes from the Hebrew word “Nephesh”. Nephesh means a living being. Both humans and animals are Nephesh. Nothing immortal or spiritual about Nephesh which is translated soul in English.

JL: Yes, humans and animals are nephesh=living beings. But our Lord seems to be under the impression, the nature of the living human being, called man is BOTH, soul and body and the soul of man lives on after bodily death. Do you suppose our Lord didn’t know what “Nephesh” meant? Our Lord reveals in Mt 10:28, when there is bodily death the soul does not die, God alone has authority (judgment) over the disposition of the soul. [CAPS added]
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What God is telling us in Matthew 10:28 is that God who gives LIFE to this Nephesh, living being, soul, person…is able not only to destroy it’s body but destroy the living being completely to the point of NO RESURRECTION. He can destroy the living being along with his body.

JL: Nephesh=living being, In man’s case, BOTH body=dust and soul=spirit. God completed, gave life=spirit=soul to a lifeless body of dust and BOTH BODY AND SOUL (dust and breath), became a living being=nephesh=MAN. Gn 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. The body was formed from the ground, but was not a person, creature or living being=nephesh was it? It was only a lifeless, body of dust, until God breathed into Adam’s nostrils the breath of life, or spirit, then man became a living being=nephesh, with BOTH BODY and SOUL, as Mt 10:28 reveals to us. Continued:

 

[jlhargus]

JL: Also, you say [God who gives LIFE to this Nephesh, living being, soul, person…is able not only to destroy it’s body but destroy the living being completely to the point of NO RESURRECTION.] Exactly, I agree God alone has authority over the disposition (judgment) of the living soul, after bodily death, and BOTH the soul and “it’s” body, after resurrection.
Again, you say [not only destroy “IT’S” body but destroy the living being completely to the point of NO RESURRECTION.] You have distinguished between the body and soul, with the word “IT’S”, but you go to any length to camouflage or avoid using the word soul, this time using the word, IT’S, saying, “God can NOT ONLY destroy IT’S BODY, BUT destroy THE LIVING BEING=nephesh COMPLETELY”, you clearly show a living being=nephesh, man is BOTH a BODY AND an “IT’S”, what would IT’S be called?
The last sentence in your above post you say: [He can DESTROY THE LIVING BEING along WITH HIS BODY.] Clearly showing, again BOTH a living being=nephesh as separate from the body, but again you camouflage and avoid the word soul, this time using living being=nephesh., which you admit is translated soul in English.

Once more, you say: [God who gives LIFE to this Nephesh, living being, soul, person…is able not only to destroy it’s body but destroy the living being completely to the point of NO RESURRECTION.] First, doesn’t death itself destroy the living human being to the point of NO RESURRECTION? It takes an act of God to resurrect the body, in the first place. God’s non-action would be the point of NO RESURRECTION. Unless you think man AUTO-RESURRECTS, apart from God. With your theology, the dead are non-existent, what further destruction is needed TO PREVENT man from RESURRECTING, other than bodily death, inorder for God to completely destroy the LIVING HUMAN being, TO REACH the point of NO RESURRECTION?
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Both humans and animals are Nephesh. Nothing immortal or spiritual about Nephesh which is translated soul in English.

JL: Depends on context, nephesh=soul is used different ways in scripture, Gn 2:7 living creature=whole person, Ps 42:2 seat of emotion, and immortal soul in Mt10:28, Gn35:18. Jer51:14 The LORD of hosts hath sworn by HIMSELF (NEPHESH),… Amos 6:8 The Lord GOD hath sworn by HIMSELF (NEPHESH)…, Job23:13 But he is in one mind and who can turn him? And what his SOUL (NEPHESH) desireth, even that he doeth. Ps11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his SOUL (NEPHESH) hateth. In this context, speaking of God himself, nothing could be more conscious, immortal or spiritual than nephesh. [1Kgs 17:21 Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to the Lord, O Lord my God, let this child’s SOUL (NEPHESH) come into him again. 23 And the Lord listened to the voice of Elijah; and the SOUL (NEPHESH) of the child came into him again, and he revived. Gn35:18 And AS HER SOUL (NEPHESH) was departing (for she died), she called his name Ben-o’ni; but his father called his name Benjamin.] [Strongs Concordance, CAPS and (nephesh), added]

 

[jlhargus]

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When God says we die…we are DEAD. NO LIFE. God is the only one who can resurrect us back to life. He will do this to all humans whether good or evil. Some will resurrect to eternal life…others will resurrect to judgment.

JL: When God says we die in Mt10:28 & Lk16:19-31, he reveals to us the soul lives after bodily death, the body is DEAD, NO LIFE and knows nothing. Yes the HUMAN BEING, is dead=no life, his corps, body, goes back to dust and his living immortal spirit=soul goes back to God who gave it, Eccl12:7. At the resurrection when BOTH body=dust and soul=breath of life are reunited we will HAVE LIFE once again, as a HUMAN BEING. God is the only one who can resurrect us back to HUMAN LIFE, by bringing the soul and body back together. To be a human being requires BOTH body and soul. The body without the soul is a corps and the soul is a disembodied spirit, it takes BOTH body and soul, to make us a human being. As our Lord reveals in [Mt 10:28 And FEAR NOT THEM which KILL THE BODY, but are NOT ABLE TO KILL THE SOUL: but rather FEAR HIM which is ABLE TO DESTROY BOTH SOUL and BODY in hell.] [bold print & font size added].

Also when God says we die it doesn’t mean NO LIFE. Death can not only refer to the death of the body when the living soul departs and man is cut off or separated from earthly life, see Lk16:19-31 Lazarus and the rich man. Death also refers to the death of the soul when the soul is cut off or separated from God, [Ezk18:4…the soul that sins will die, Eph2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, Col2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,]. Paul is speaking to former carnal living persons, the flesh ruled, over a dead soul cut off or separated from God. Now Christian, the soul is alive no longer separated or cut off from God, the soul rules over the flesh, the human being now has eternal life by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The death of only the soul can leave the body alive, just as the death of the body can leave the soul alive. [1Tim 5:6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. [1Jn3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who DOES NOT LOVE REMAINS IN DEATH. 15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that NO MURDERED HAS ETERNAL LIFE IN HIM. Gn2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in THE DAY that THOU EATEST thereof THOU SHALT surely DIE.] Adam and Eve both died that day, to eternal life, yet lived bodily many more years, they were cut off and separated from the LIFE of God, dwelling within, the instant they sinned their soul died and the carnal body ruled. [Mt8:22 But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and LET THE DEAD BURY THEIR OWN DEAD.”] So when God says we die…we are DEAD, bodily or spiritually or BOTH, but it does not mean NO LIFE, as we see in many scriptures, especially Mt10:28 and Lk16:19-31. Continued:

 

[jlhargus]

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Those in the first resurrection will resurrect with a glorified body. They will have put on IMMORTALITY. (that’s because we don’t have it yet). That is why Scripture tell us…those in the first resurrection will not be affected by the SECOND DEATH.Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,…"

JL: No doubt about it the second death has no power over the blessed and holy. I also agree, human beings, BOTH soul and body, do not have immortality yet. But many human beings even now have eternal life, they posses the very life of God, which absolutely must begin here on earth, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in fact eternal life is, ONLY, given and received in this life, not after death. Eternal life and immortality are not quite the same. Good angels have both immortality and eternal life as they posses God. Satan and fallen angels have immortality, they do not die, yet they do not posses eternal life. They are separated, cut off, from the life of God and heirs to eternal punishment, immortal existence and all the chaos and mayhem separation from God entails. Their existence is called the second death, it is not a real death nor a real life, but existence. Their life is destroyed, just as substance abuse can literally destroy man’s body and life, to the point he is only existing, yet not bodily dead.

The body will put on IMMORTALITY at the resurrection, as the flesh is not yet immortal. The resurrected bodies, of the just and unjust, will have immortality, but only the just have eternal life along with a glorified body. [Jn5:29 …, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. Dan12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.] The unjust’s body will be the same body but changed to reflect the shame and contempt of their particular sins, some saints have said they are hideous animal forms. The God created spirit=soul is IMMORTAL by its very created nature. Just as angles, good or fallen, by their very created nature, are immortal, even though some, the fallen angels, do not have eternal life. Our Lord reveals in Mt10:28, only God can dispose of a soul. Man nor bodily death can kill the soul. You have often posted, Eccl 12:7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it… Is the spirit that goes back to God dead? Wouldn’t a dead spirit in your theology mean it is out of existence? How then could something dead, non existent, go back to God?
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In Luke 16:22-23…Jesus does not say the rich man is taken immediately to an eternally burning hell. He says the rich man dies and is buried. People are buried in a grave and covered with earth.

JL: Yes, bodies are buried in a grave covered with earth, usually not always, sometimes they are cremated, our Lord was buried, but not covered with earth. Lazarus a poor man’s body was probably buried in the ground. The rich man’s body was probably buried in an above ground tomb. Christ reveals in [Lk 16:22 So it was that the BEGGAR DIED, and WAS CARRIED BY THE ANGELS (did angels carry the beggar’s body to the grave, or his soul=spirit to Abraham’s bosom=Hades=Sheol=Hell?) TO ABRAHAM’S BOSOM. THE RICH MAN ALSO DIED AND WAS BURIED. (his body was buried) 23 AND (his soul=spirit) BEING IN TORMENTS IN HADES, (Could his dead body be in torments in a grave?) he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.] [CAPS and (remarks ), added]. We know they were both bodily dead, yet the rich man is in torment in Hades, just as Christ reveals, in Mt10:28, man can kill the body but not BOTH body and soul, only God can destroy BOTH in hell (Gehenna) and destroy does not mean annihilation. Destroyed; as sin or substance abuse can literally destroy one’s life and body, without the person being bodily dead and certainly not annihilated. Both Lazarus’ and the rich man’s bodies were buried in a grave, Lazarus’ soul was carried by angels to Hades, the chamber called Abraham’s bosom, the rich man’s soul descended into Hades, the chamber of torment.
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Hades (verse 23) is the Greek word for “grave.” The King James Version generically translates hades into “hell,” as it also does the Greek words tartarus (the present condition of darkness and restraint of the fallen angels or demons NOT humans ) and gehenna (a place at the bottom of a high ledge at the south end of Jerusalem where garbage and dead bodies were dumped and burned). Other Bible translations correctly distinguish the different meaning in these words. The rich man went to the same kind of place Jesus did when He died—“hell” (KJV) or “Hades” (NKJV)—but the Father did not leave Him there. Read…Acts 2:31-32

JL: You say: “Hades (Luke verse 23) is the Greek word for “grave.” [Lk16:23 IN HELL, WHERE HE WAS IN TORMENT, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.] Can a dead decaying body in a grave be in torment? No, but a soul can. In verse 23 hell is the English for Hades, while I admit it can have a connotation of grave, not where a body is placed, but where spirits go. The Greek word, for grave, where a body is placed would be mnemeion. You say the KJV generically translates hades into ‘hell’’, I see no problem with that. The problem I see is your always generically translating Sheol, Hades, Hell as a grave, where a body is placed. You often quote Eccl 9:4-6, 10, in support of your theology the,THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING, and there is no KNOWLEDGE in the grave. Tell me how could a dead body in the grave, which has no knowledge and knows not anything, know he is in torment? Answer a dead body can’t, but a living soul in Hell can.

 

[jlhargus]

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The rich man went to the same kind of place Jesus did when He died—“hell” (KJV) or “Hades” (NKJV)—but the Father did not leave Him there. Read…Acts 2:31-32

JL: Yes THE RICH MAN, Lk16:19-31, AND CHRIST, 1Pt3:18-19, both bodily dead, yet both fully conscious and aware, in their spirit=soul went to Hell=English, Hates=Greek, Sheol=Hebrew --[Acts 2:31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that HIS SOUL was NOT LEFT IN HADES, …]-- Christ, along with the thief, whom Christ promised would be with him that day in paradise, descended into Abraham’s Bosom, the paradise chamber of Hell, where Lazarus was comforted, Lk16:25. The rich man descended into the torment chamber of Hell, and conversed with bodily dead Abraham. Christ preached to the spirits 1Pt3:19&1Pt4:6, in Hell=English, Hades=Greek, Sheol=Hebrew, the world of the dead. Both bodies were placed in a tomb=sepulchre=grave=English, mnemeion=Greek or qeber=Hebrew. [mnemeion, qeber from Strongs Exhaustive Condcordance of the Bible]

JL: You say to Read…Acts 2:31-32. I did [Acts 2:31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that HIS SOULD WAS NOT LEFT IN HADES, NOR did HIS FLESH SEE CORRUPTION. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.] If the soul is the body=flesh and Hades the grave, there would be no need to distinguish between either, but the scripture does distinguish saying his soul NOR his flesh, it could have easily said, “his soul was not left in Hades nor saw corruption, that would clearly show they are one and the same. Instead the scriptures show two components, soul and flesh. We also see, only flesh decays not the soul. Acts 2:31-32 reminds me of Mt10:28, BOTH soul AND body, Acts 2:31 says, his soul NOR his flesh, BOTH components forming one nature of a living HUMAN BEING=man. Christ’s soul was not left in Hades, where he preached to the spirits of the bodily dead, Pt3:19 & 1Pt4:6, and took them to heaven when he ascended, Eph4:8. NOR did his flesh=body see corruption in the tomb=grave=mnemeion=qeber. If Sheol=Hades=Hell are only a grave, where a dead body is placed, was Christ buried in a grave so deep as to be in the lower part of the earth? [Eph 4:9 In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that HE had ALSO DESCENDED INTO THE LOWER PART OF THE EARTH?] Could a dead body=corps descend to the lower part of the earth? A dead body=corps could not descend, but could only be lowered into a grave, especially a grave so deep as the lower part of the earth. It was the soul that descended, to the lower part of the earth. I know no one, who has buried a body in a grave, to the lower part of the earth, do you? We know Christ’s body was placed in a tomb, above ground, his body did not descend into that tomb, it was placed there. If a body is removed from a grave or tomb, and abandoned on the ground, is it then removed from Sheol=Hades=Hell? If I remove a body from a grave or tomb, and abandon that body on the ground, then the body is no longer in the grave or tomb, is it?

[Acts2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also MY FLESH shall rest IN HOPE: 27 BECAUSE thou wilt not leave MY SOUL in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.]
In Gn37:12-36 when Jacob was told his youngest son Joseph was killed by a wild animal, [Gn37:35 All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted, and said, “No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.”] [RSVCE bold print added]. Jacob thought Joseph’s body was devoured by an animal (Gn37:33) not buried. Therefore, Jacob could not have thought Joseph’s body was in a grave, or Hades=Sheol=Hell as you say, where a dead body is placed. If Jacob thought Sheol was only a grave, where a body is placed, how could Jacob say he will go down to Sheol to his son, knowing his son was not buried in a grave? Only in soul=spirit could he go down to his son in Sheol, where all souls went after death, before the ascension, as our Lord reveals in Lk16:19-31 Lazarus and the rich man. All that Joseph’s brothers brought back was Joseph’s coat, soaked in blood, Jacob didn’t say take me to the place you buried his remains, or go look for his remains, that we may bury them. Jacob nor anyone mentioned bodily burial, even as an option, yet Jacob said he would go down to Sheol to his son, obviously he did not mean a GRAVE for a body, because his son was not buried.

[Gn 49:33 When Jacob had finished giving instructions to his sons, he drew his feet up into the bed, BREATHED HIS LAST AND WAS GATHERED TO HIS PEOPLE.]

Joseph, Jacob’s son, had Jacob’s body embalmed, Gn50:2-3, that took forty days, then the body was taken from Egypt to Canaan for burial in a cave where Abraham had been buried, but Jacob was gathered to his people when he died. Yet he was only finally, bodily, buried in a grave, at lest two months later. Joseph said in Gn50:5 My father made me swear, saying, Lo, I die: in my GRAVE (QEBER 6913 Hebrew, burying place, grave, sepulchre) which I HAVE DIGGED for me in the land of Canaan, there shalt thou BURY (QABAR=Hebrew, bury, 6912) me. Now therefore let me go up, I pray thee, and BURY (QABAR=bury, 6912) my father, and I will come again. [6913/6012 Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, also Death and the Afterlife, by Dr. Robert A. Morey, Bethany House Publishers. I added CAPS and (remarks)].

CONTINUED

 

[jlhargus]

2Sam 3:32 And they BURIED (QABAR=bury, 6912) Abner in Hebron: and the king lifted up his voice, and wept at the GRAVE (QEBER=burying place, grave, sepulchre, 6913), of Abner; and all the people wept. [Sheol can be translated GRAVE, but it is in reference to the spiritual world of the dead, while qeber=grave, tomb, sepulchre is in reference to the body, the earthly grave. I can visit an earthly grave, I cannot visit Sheol. I can bury anyone in an earthly grave, I cannot bury anyone in Sheol=Hades=Hell. I can remove anyone from an earthly grave, I cannot remove anyone from Sheol=Hades=Hell.] Dt 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest HELL, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. Strong #7585 HELL=SHEOL; from 7592: hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), incl. Its accessories and inmates:–grave, hell, pit.] [CAPS added]
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JOHN 11:11-14. “These things said he (Jesus): and after that he said unto them (the disciples), Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I might awaken him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death; but they thought he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. The said Jesus unto them plainly, LAZARUS IS DEAD.”

JL: No argument there, Lazarus was indeed dead, he was not sleeping, there is no such thing as soul sleep. Lazarus laid down his tabernacle, as Peter refered to his own body. Lazarus’ soul went out of him, as James reveals, the body without the spirit is dead. he ceased to be, as a LIVING HUMAN BEING, as his soul went out of his body, and we know per Mt10:28 BOTH, soul AND body, make up a LIVING HUMAN BEING. [Lk8:54 But taking her by the hand he called, saying, Child, arise. 55 And HER SPIRIT RETURNED, (4151 pneuma=spirit) and she got up at once; and he directed that something should be given her to eat. 1Kgs 17:21 Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to the Lord, O Lord my God, let this child’s SOUL (NEPHESH) come into him again. 23 And the Lord listened to the voice of Elijah; and the SOUL (NEPHESH) of the child came into him again, and he revived. Gn35:18 And as HER SOUL (NEPHESH) WAS DEPARTING (for she died), she called his name Ben-o’ni; but his father called his name Benjamin, all CAPS added.]
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The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man shows the resurrection from the dead, not an instantaneous going to heaven or hell. It is a resurrection from death, NOT FROM LIFE. It depicts mortals who die and are dead, NOT IMMORTALS who never lose consciousness and live forever under punishment in a fiery hell.

JL: You make the statement, “The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man shows the resurrection from the dead,” I notice you did not post any scripture as evidence, just a statement, in reference to Lazarus and the rich man, why, no scripture? [Lk 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 "But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 "He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 "Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 " ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 "He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’] If after the resurrection, what would be the purpose of the rich man asking Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers? If after the resurrection Lazarus would not be dead, so how could the rich man say If someone from the dead goes to them? If after the resurrection there would be no dead, to send. If after resurrection would there be any to warn? If after the resurrection, why would Abraham, say they have Moses and the Prophets, let them listen to them? If after the resurrection shouldn’t Abraham have said; they were not convinced even though one rose from the dead? Christ our Lord. Continued:

 

[jlhargus]

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The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man shows the resurrection from the dead, not an instantaneous going to heaven or hell.

JL: I don’t recall anyone saying Lazarus, instantaneously went to heaven. [Hb10:1 THE LAW is only A SHADOW of the good things that are coming—NOT THE REALITIES THEMSELVES. For this reason it CAN NEVER, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, MAKE PERFECT those who draw near to worship. …2…3… 4 because IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for the BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS to TAKE AWAY SINS.] No one went to heaven before the resurrection and ascension of our Lord. Because only the atoning blood of Christ can take away sin and make just men perfect. All spirits=disembodied=souls, just or unjust, were captives in Sheol=Hades=Hell, before the ascension. They went to one of the chambers of Sheol=Hades=Hell, before the resurrection and ascension of our Lord, who opened heaven for the just spirits when he descended to Hell, Hades, Sheol and preached to them,1Pt3:18 that he might bring us to God, 1Pt3:18-19 & 1Pt4:6 When he ascended, he led a host of captives, the great cloud of witnesses Hb11:1-12-1, [Acts1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a CLOUD hid him from their sight.] Christ took the just spirits, disembodied, souls, in Sheol=Hades=Hell into heaven, now made perfect by the blood of Christ, that cleanses and takes away sin [Eph 4:8…WHEN HE ASCENDED on high HE LED A HOST OF CAPTIVES,… Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and THE SPIRIT SHALL RETURN UNTO GOD who gave it.] The body=dust returns to the earth and the spirit=soul goes back to God who gave it, for immediate personal judgement. [Hb 9:27 as it is appointed for men to die once and after that comes judgment. Hb12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion…the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,…23 … TO A JUDGE who is GOD of all, AND the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT… ] We know all spirits return to God who gave it. After the ascention we see in Hb9:23, the spirits of just men made perfect, with our Lord in heaven, the evil spirits are still in Sheol, Hades, Hell, the chamber of torment until the resurrection. After the last judgement at the end of the age Sheol, Hades, Hell AND DEATH, along with demons and evil human beings, body and soul, will be cast alive into the lake of fire, where they die no more, because the lake of fire IS the second death. [Rv20:14 Then DEATH and HADES were THROWN INTO the lake of fire. The lake of fire IS the second death. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.] In the lake of fire death will have already been swallowed up, as it is thrown in first, even first or last makes no difference, death will have no more power, just as Satan will be swallowed up and have no more power in the lake of fire. Those in the lake of fire do not have a life, but only exist to experience, especially experience what they have inflicted on others. [Hb 9:27 as it is appointed for men to DIE ONCE.] Not a second time as the lake of fire IS the second death, after resurrection. [Mk 9:48 where THEIR worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] Some may be under the impression, “Mk 9:48 their worm does not die,” should not be in the bible, which is not the case, It was taken out of Mk 9:44 & 46 in most new translations, but not Mk9:48, some translations still have all three verses in Mk, such as the KJV & NKJV. It is also found in [Isa66:24 “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”] and [Judith16:17 Woe to the nations that rise up against my people! The Lord Almighty will take vengeance on them in the day of judgment; fire and worms he will give to their flesh; they shall weep in pain for ever.] CONTINUED:

 

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tartarus (the present condition of darkness and restraint of the fallen angels or demons NOT humans

JL: Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, 5020; TARTARUS, from tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades). Scripture reveals, the eternal Lake of Fire, was prepared for the devil and his angels, but cursed resurrected man will also share their fate. [Mt25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS.] If both share the same fate after resurrection, there is no reason to think they wouldn’t share the same fate before resurrection. Especially since scripture, Lk16:19-31, 1Pt3:18-20, etc., reveals all souls went to sheol, hades, hell, before the ascension of our Lord to heaven. Tartarus being the deepest pit, of shoel=hades=hell, where the spirits of the fallen angels are found. [2Pt2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be FALSE TEACHERS among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—BRINGING SWIFT DESTRUCTION ON THEMSELVES. … 4 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE ANGELS when they sinned, but SENT them TO HELL, (tartarus, the deepest abyss of hades) putting them into GLOOMY DUNGEONS TO BE HELD FOR JUDGMENT; 5 IF HE DID NOT APARE THE ANCIENT WORLD when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;… 9 if this is so, then THE LORD KNOWS HOW to rescue godly men from trials and TO HOLD THE UNRIGHTEOUS FOR the day of JUDGMENT, while CONTINUING THEIR PUNISHMENT. … 17 THESE MEN are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. BLACKEST DARKNESS IS RESERVED FOR THEM. Jude1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath RESERVED IN EVERLASTING CHAINS UNDER DARKNESS UNTO THE JUDGMENT of the great day.] Peter nor Jude say, only fallen angels are in tartarus, the deepest, pit of hades, but that fallen angels are in tartarus, the deepest pit. That doesn’t exclude, the spirits, of the most evil fallen men being in tartarus, in fact both Peter and Jude seem to indicate false teachers share the same fate of fallen angels. The first chapter of Jude goes on, speaking of false teachers, [Jud1:12 THESE MEN are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—TWICE DEAD. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, FOR WHOM BLACKEST DARKNESS HAS BEEN RESERVED FOREVER.] Also, [Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE LORD SHALL PUNISH the host of THE HIGH ONES (fallen angels) that are on high, AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH upon the earth. 22 And THEY SHALL BE GATHERED TOGETHER, as PRISONERS are gathered IN THE PIT, and shall be SHUT UP IN PRISON, and AFTER MANY DAYS SHALL THE BE VISITED.] [added, (tartarus, deepest abyss of hades) (fallen angels) and CAPS.]

 

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So…to answer your question the answer is NO! We do not know anything after death. Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

JL: Notice also Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, NEITHER have they ANY more a REWARD. So if Solomon is speaking of eternal things after death instead of things UNDER THE SUN, he would be saying NEITHER is there ANY more REWARD after death. Yet we know there is reward and souls are aware, after death, as Christ, the LIGHT of the world, has revealed, see Lk16:19-31. The OT can only be interpreted and understood in the LIGHT of the NT, as revealed by the LIGHT of the world, our Lord Jesus Christ. [Lk24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” 45 Then HE OPENED THEIR MINDS SO THEY COULD UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES.] That would be OT as there was no NT yet. CAPS added.

Paul was a Jewish scholar and student of Gamiel one of the best OT scholars. Yet Paul did not understand the OT correctly, until Christ’s revelations to him, on the way to Damascus, where he was going to imprison Christ’s followers. Then Paul went to the desert of Arabia for three years, probably to rethink his OT theology in the LIGHT OF CHRIST’s revelation. Remember the Jewish BEREANS, the only scriptures around in their time was the Old Testament. The Bereans already knew the OT very well, as most Jews did, but they only understood the OT, after Paul preached, in the LIGHT of what Christ revealed. Then they searched the scriptures (OT) in the LIGHT of the Gospel, to see if those things, not seen or understood before, were so. God did not reveal everything at once, but over centuries, gradually unveiling a deeper understanding of those trues, giving a more clear picture, with the final revelations thru Christ. The interpretative remarks of the Amplified Bible buts is very well, [Hb1:1 IN MANY separate revelations [each of which set forth a portion of the Truth] and in different ways God spoke of old to [our] forefathers in and by the prophets, 2 [But] in the last of these days He has spoken to us in [the person of a] Son,…] The early fathers of the Church say, the NT is hidden in the OT and the OT is revealed in the NT. [Eph3:3 How that BY REVELATION HE MADE KNOWN UNTO ME THE MYSTERY; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which IN OTHER AGES WAS NOT MADE KNOWN unto the sons of men, as IT IS NOW REVEALED unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH THE MANIFOLD WISDOM OF GOD, 11 According to the eternal purpose WHICH HE PURPOSED IN CHRIST JESUS our Lord:]

Our Lord reveals in the NT the souls of the bodily dead are conscious and aware, read Lk16:19-31 Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man, bodily dead, is in torment, Lazarus is comforted. Our Lord when bodily dead, Eph 4:8-10, descended in spirit and preached to the spirits of the bodily dead, and those spirits he took to heaven when he ascended. Hb12:22-23 bodily dead spirits of just men made perfect. Rv4:4 the twenty four elders of bodily dead men in heaven. Rv6:9-11 souls of martyrs, slain for the word of God, bodily dead, speak to our Lord and are given white robes. Mk9:4 bodily dead, Moses appeared with Elias speaking to Jesus, at the transfiguration. 2Cor5:8 For Paul to be bodily dead, was to be away from the body and be home with the Lord. Our Lord tells us in Mt10:28 man cannot kill the soul, it lives after bodily death and God alone has judgment over the disposition of the soul. CONTINUED:

 

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As for knowledge passing away, again I think the interpretative remarks of the Amplified Bible puts it very well. 1Cor13:8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for KNOWLEDGE, IT WILL PASS AWAY [it will LOSE ITS VALUE and be SUPERSEDED BY TRUTH]. [Amplified Bible, CAPS for emphasis added]. 1Cor3:8 says KNOWLEDGE WILL PASS AWAY. Does KNOWLEDGE pass away when Christ returns, in the sense a person is not aware? – No, that would make the resurrected nothing more than zombies.-- Nor does KNOWLEDGE in Sheol pass away, in the sense the soul is not aware. We have irrefutable evidence in the words of Christ, the LIGHT of the world, Lk16:19-31, two dead men, Abraham and the rich man, in Sheol conversing. After one’s earthly pilgrimage, KNOWLEDGE has no value to decrease or increase reward or man’s fate. It is superseded by the truth, in the stark reality, what one sowed UNDER THE SUN is now IRREVERSIBLY reaped, good or bad. KNOWLEDGE has value only under the sun were work, device, knowledge and wisdom can be employed, thru service to God and man, adding value and increase to one’s eternal reward. Jn9:4 As long AS IT IS DAY, we must do the WORK of him who sent me. NIGHT IS COMING, when NO ONE CAN WORK.] [Eccl9:10 whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might for there is no work, nor device, nor KNOWLEDGE, nor wisdom In the grave (SHEOL) whither thou goest]. What man knows and does with knowledge, under the sun, seals his fate, knowledge or wisdom after death can’t help.

 

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GEN 3:19. “In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou RETURN UNTO THE GROUND; for out of it was thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”

JL: Yes one component, the body of man, was formed from the dust of the earth and to dust that body component will return. That body of dust was not a HUMAN BEING, was it? Until God breathed into his nostrils giving life or spirit, the other component of man. BOTH components, soul AND body, forming the one nature of a HUMAN BEING. Christ reveals to us, in Mt10:28, man is BOTH, soul AND body, and the soul does not die, God alone has judgment over the disposition of the soul. CONTINUED:
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ECCLES 3:19-20. “For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth BEASTS: even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man HATH NO PRE-EMINENCE ABOVE A BEAST; for all is vanity. ALL GO UNTO ONE PLACE; all are of the dust and all turn to dust again.”

JL: Yes the BODY of man and beast share the same fate, both go to one place and return to dust. You shouldn’t have stopped with verse 20, but continued reading verses 21&22, Eccl 3:21 WHO KNOWS whether THE SPIRIT OF MAN GOES UPWARD and THE SPIRIT OF THE BEAST GOES DOWN TO THE EARTH? 22 So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should enjoy his work, for that is his lot; WHO CAN BRING HIM TO SEE WHAT WILL BE AFTER HIM? [Solomon, although he says he doesn’t know, has expressed a belief in the possibility of a difference between the spirit of man and beast, who knows he says, whether the spirit of man goes up and the spirit of beasts goes down to earth. Solomon is more sure, where the spirit of man goes, when he writes later in Eccl12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Point is he doesn’t know and he says so, while expressing a belief in a difference. In OT times, they had an unclear understanding of life after death, as the writer clearly states, “WHO KNOWS”, WHO CAN BRING HIM TO SEE WHAT WILL BE AFTER HIM?’.
We now know, who can bring him to see what will be after him. THE SAVIOR AND LIGHT OF THE WORLD, our Lord Jesus Christ, who alone could reveal it. The OT can only be understood in the LIGHT of the NT. Christ our LIGHT revealed more clearly what happens after death. Still, even now we see poorly and know in part, [1Cor13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known]. In Ecclesiastes the writer is speaking pessimistically, “all is vanity”, from an earthly view, as he says, “WHO KNOWS?” clearly showing the writer does not have a clear understanding of what happens after death. After Christ’s revelations we do know man’s lot is more than doing whatever pleases him under the sun, for man will give an account for his deeds done under the sun. After Christ’s revelations we do know, ALL DO NOT GO TO ONE PLACE. After Christ’s revelations we do know MAN HATH PRE-EMINENCE ABOVE A BEAST; for all is not vanity, what man does on earth has eternal consequences, what a beast does is of no eternal consequence.

 

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ECCLES 9:4-6,10. “For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope; for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die ; BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING……also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished……Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor KNOWLEDGE, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.”

JL: I notice verses 5 & 6 of Eccl you cut short, why? [Eccl 5 FOR THE LIVING KNOW THAT THEY SHALL DIE; BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING…… (you left out) AND THEY HAVE NO MORE REWARD; BUT THE MEMORY OF THEM IS LOST.] So if Solomon is speaking of eternal things after death instead of things UNDER THE SUN, he is saying they have no more reward after death and God will have no memory of the dead. That would mean no resurrection, no more reward. Yet we know, by the LIGHT of the world, Jesus Christ, after death the dead do KNOW, read Lk16:19-31 the souls of bodily dead men one being comforted and one beinging in torment. We also know there is remembrance by God of the dead and more reward, the resurrection, as Christ our LIGHT has irrefutably revealed. You can’t have it both ways changing meaning in mid stream, to fit your theology. You have the same inconsistency, trying to have it BOTH WAYS with [Mt 25:46 Then they will go away to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous to ETERNAL LIFE.] You want Mt 25:46 to read, “then they will go away to FINAL punishment, but the righteous to ETERNAL life.” Changing the meaning, of ETERNAL, in mid sentence, the same Greek word, same context, so it fits your theology. What Greek or English rule do you use to justify the change in meaning.

1Cor13:8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for KNOWLEDGE, it WILL PASS AWAY [IT WILL LOSE ITS VALUE and be SUPERSEDED BY TRUTH]. [Amlified Bible, CAPS added]. I think the interpretative remarks of the Amlified Bible puts it very well. In 1Cor3:8, it says KNOWLEDGE WILL PASS AWAY. Does KNOWLEDGE pass away when Christ returns, in the sense a person is not aware? --No, that would make the resurrected nothing more than zombies.-- Nor does KNOWLEDGE in Sheol pass away, in the sense the soul is not aware. We have irrefutable evidence given by the LIGHT of the world, Christ’s own words, Lk16:19-31, two bodily dead men, one comforted and one in torment, in Sheol. After one’s earthly pilgrimage, KNOWLEDGE has no value to decrease or increase reward or man’s fate. It is superseded by the truth, in the reality, what one sowed UNDER THE SUN is now irreversibly reaped, good or bad. KNOWLEDGE has value only UNDER THE SUN were work, device, knowledge and wisdom can be employed, thru service to God and man, adding value and increase to one’s eternal reward. [Jn9:4 AS LONG AS IT IS DAY, we must do the WORK of him who sent me. NIGHT IS COMING, when NO ONE CAN WORK.] [Eccl9:10 whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might for there is no work, nor device, nor KNOWLEDGE, nor wisdom In the grave (SHEOL) whither thou goest]. What man knows and does with that knowledge, under the sun seals his fate, after death.
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JOB 3:17. “There (the grave) the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.”

JL: First the word Sheol does not appear in chapters one, two, three, four, five or six. Unless I over looked it, the first time I find Sheol in Job is 7:9. The word QEBER=GRAVE does appear in chapters 3:22 and 5:26. Qeber is one of the Hebrew words for grave, where a body is placed, not Sheol where the soul goes. Job is speaking of qeber=grave in chapter three, which you reference. Of course in the grave=qeber, the decaying body of the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest. Even in Sheol, the spirits of the wicked cease from troubling as they are captives in the chamber of torment and have no access to the earth. The weary or just are at rest, comforted, in the chamber of Abraham’s Bosom , see Lk16:19-31 Lazarus and the rich man.

 

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PSALM 6:5. “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?”

JL: The following taken from: enduringword.com/commentaries/19006.htm

David is not certain of the after life, but he is certain while in the body he can remember and give thanks. Ps 6:5 In death there is no remembrance of You: It would be wrong to take these agonized words of David as evidence that there is no life beyond this life. The Old Testament has a shadowy understanding of the world beyond. Sometimes it shows a clear confidence (Job 19:25), and sometimes it has the uncertainty David shows here.
The understanding of the after-life was murky at best in the Old Testament; but Jesus let us know more about heaven and hell than anyone else could. Jesus could do this because He had first-hand knowledge of the world beyond.

David’s point isn’t to present a comprehensive theology of the world beyond. He is in agony, fearing for his life, and he knows he can remember God and give Him thanks now. He doesn’t have the same certainty about the world beyond, so he asks God to act according to his certainty.
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All of these passages of Scripture show that death results in man going to the grave and NOT to heaven.

JL: No one went to heaven before the ascension of Christ. the OT scriptures show bodies going into qebers=graves, where a dead body is placed and returns to dust. Their spirits go back to God for judgement and then are sent to one of the chambers in Sheol, the spiritual grave, see Lk16:19-31 Lazarus and the rich man.
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Nor are there any references of any part of the person going to heaven except the breath of life ( Hebrew: ruwach—breath, air life), which is given to man at birth. It ‘goes back to God who gave it’ (Eccles. 12:7).

JL: Ruwach (Hebrew, OT) or pneuma (Greek, NT) used in Hb12:23 for spirits of men, is given to man at conception, as that is when HUMAN LIFE begins. RUWACH is also used for the Spirit of God in the OT, Gn1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the SPIRIT of God was hovering over the waters. According to your theology, Eccl12:7 good and evil spirits are in heaven, even before the ascension of Christ. I see only evidence for just spirits made perfect, only after the ascension being with God in heaven. Hb9:27 Just as man is destined to die ONCE, and after that to face judgment, Hb12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion…THE CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, the heavenly Jerusalem,…23 … TO A JUDGE WHO IS GOD of all, AND the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, 24 and TO JESUS THE MEDIATOR of a new covenant… ]. What happens when man kills man? yet cannot kill the soul. If man can’t kill both, soul and body, the spirit must be alive, after the body is killed, as Mt10:28 reveals to us. Where does that living spirit go? The soul that only God has power over. Does ruwach, breath, air, life, go back to God as dead air or as life? It goes back as life, for judgement. Bad breath (pun intended) goes into Sheol the chamber of torment, good breath before the ascension went into Sheol, the chamber of Abraham’s Bosom, after the ascension Christ opened heaven for good breath made perfect, good breath not yet perfect goes into purgatory. [Eph 4:8…WHEN HE ASCENDED on high HE LED A HOST OF CAPTIVES,…] as Paul reveals of himself in [2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be AWAY FROM the BODY and at HOME WITH THE LORD.] We now see, after the ascension of Christ, those spirits of just men made perfect in heaven Hb12:23 and we see unjust souls are in Sheol, Hades, Hell in torment per Christ in Lk16:18-31 the rich man. [Strongs Dictionary 7307: from ‘ruwach’ (7306); wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):–air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y). 7307]