Why do we hold hands, have guitars, etc. in mass?

[otjm]

Hand holding is a practise that came from the Protestant churches and I do hope our Pope will end this soon. No practise should detract from the purpose of the Mass itself.

Actually, it came from Catholics in the Charismatic Movement. There are a whole lot of Protestants that don’t hold hands during the Our Father, and of those that do, some will trace it back to the Catholics doing so.

 

[otjm]

Chanting the Our Father or Nicene Creed is not the same as singing it–with full blown musical accompianments and hideous melodies no one can follow.

Have you ever heard a Baroque or Classic or Romantic setting of the Mass where the Creed is sung in a setting by the composer?

I have. Some of them are hideous. I go to Mass to pray, not to listen to a choir show off how polished they are in presenting a concert.

 

[otjm]

In our diocese the Our Father is not allowed to be sung. This decision was made last year( so I was told). The hand holding is not in the Church Rubrics. Every time a visiting missionary priest comes to visit, this is always pointed out by them. But people keep doing the hand holding!

You are right; hand holding is not in the rubrics. Neither is putting your hands together, palms touching, fingers interlaced, or palms together, figers ponting upward or outward.

In short, there are no rubrics for what to do with your hands.

 

[Sarabande]

I have. Some of them are hideous. I go to Mass to pray, not to listen to a choir show off how polished they are in presenting a concert.

What do you mean by hideous? Do you mean that you think it is too much or too secular-sounding for mass? Do you mean that the music composition itself (whether done in a secular concert or sacred concert or mass) is hideous in it of itself? Or do you mean that you don’t like well-trained musicians doing the music because of a true or perceived notion that they are presenting a concert?

Let me just note that I will be the first to say that there are some beautiful classical gems written for mass or using a mass format or just as a religious piece, which probably shouldn’t be done for mass. Sacred music concert - yes. So, I can see how someone would have the opinion that it was “hideous” in that sense.

I could also understand if a person just thought the music itself was hideous. Sometimes that’s the fault of the person(s) doing the music, though. I’ve heard some works at first which I was down-right atrocious, then heard another person perform it and was absolutely sublime.

I will also note that I know there will always be star-wannabes and ego maniacs from every style of music which will infiltrate the music programs for mass. Working in the music world, I’ve seen my share of it on the stage and in churches. But there are many well-trained musicians who are doing their job as musicians and nothing more, except loving what they do and offering it up as a prayer. They don’t give half-you-know what jobs. We wouldn’t want that of our priests or people of other professions. But for some reason I’ve noticed that if someone does do their job in music, it is immediately assumed that they mean to present a concert. And at the same time - those people are the same ones who will complain if the music at their church isn’t “good enough” or if the organist/guitarrist/pianist etc. doesn’t play the music the way they think it should go. (I’m not saying that was you. Just in general.)

I’m just asking you the above questions, because I wasn’t quite clear with what was hideous to you, and want to make clear that I’m not trying to be argumentative, or anything like that. Thanks!

 

[trokll]

I am a teenage boy and I personal like how life teen mass is often done (with rock music and hand holding) . I say this beacuse for a while I did not even go to mass or anything. I was born catholic but I was not raised to be a strong catholic. I recently became a strong catholic beacuse of life teen mass and beacuse of these very things. They give me a sense of commiunty. This thing lead (including getting strong catholic friends from meeting them at mass) me in a sense I would say this things help me become a strong catholic. I mean strong cathloic in that I striving to following the ten commadents and go to confession. I would say that if you all of sudden got rid of these things It would be you would be only hurting people who were like me in the past by making it hard to get into.

Though I would say I could do without all of it. I would not make me leave the chuirch or anything like that. I only say that it can help people who might not be toatlly into church get into church

Also Jeasus is Super asome

 

[otjm]

What do you mean by hideous?

I was referring to a groups of extremely polished singers who were singing a Mass from Pallistrina (and excuse me if I mis-spelled his name). It went on and on… and on… and on. I am old enough to have been to a number of sung Masses well before Vatican 2, so it is not as if I have no perspective.

The technical aspects were very well done. This choir had travelled internationally and were (exceedingly?) quick to let everyone know how well they had been received. The Mass took
on the appearance of a concert.

I am not a musiciain and do not pretend to be a music critic. I go to Mass to worship, not to be entertained, or amazed at the technical proficiency of the choir; nor do I go to hear what I consider to be concert music presented in what seems to be a concert fashion.

I am sure others will disgagree with me. They are certainly welcome to. I love Gregorian music well done; and I would note that the only time I participated in one exceedingly well done, we were being recorded (I was in the seminary at the time). But it causes me pain to no end to hear Gregorian chant slaughtered, and most parishes don’t know enough about it to do it even approaching moderately well.

I would note that I have been going to Mass occasionally over the last 40 years to the local Traqppist monestary; they used to be able to do chant in a well-done but certainly not concert fashion. As they are aging to a great degree, it is almost painful to listen to them now.

In short, when a piece of music takes longer to get through (I chose not to say perform) than the average homily, I begin to wonder how proportional it is to the rest of the Mass.

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

I would guess that it is to attract the younger crowd, but as far as I know that is not what the church did traditionally.

Personally (and I know I am different than most kids my age), I prefer more traditional masses with organs rather than guitars/drumsets.

At mass this past weekend, I witnessed something I never have before. The Nicene Creed was sang. I couldn’t believe it. I had trouble following the singing, so I tried to say it in my head, but since it is a profession, I feel like I should say it aloud.

The holding hands thing during the Our Father really gets to me, more than the music. I actually asked my brother (who is a priest) about this, and he said that we shouldn’t hold hands because it is supposed to be a time between the individual and God, not the individual, God, and the individuals next to him/her.

So why do we hold hands, have rock instruments, and try and turn everything (including the Our Father) into a song?

Given what I’ve seen, you aren’t alone/different from kids your age. More traditional Catholics are young, because we/they see the **** that has been shoved down our throat is not the entirety of the Faith.

And, we do all that garbage because aging hippies feel that it is the only way to bring people to Mass. Because, ya know, the Church had a problem with that for 1960 years…

 

[Sarabande]

…
The technical aspects were very well done. This choir had travelled internationally and were (exceedingly?) quick to let everyone know how well they had been received. The Mass took
on the appearance of a concert.
…
I am not a musiciain and do not pretend to be a music critic. I go to Mass to worship, not to be entertained, or amazed at the technical proficiency of the choir; nor do I go to hear what I consider to be concert music presented in what seems to be a concert fashion.
…
In short, when a piece of music takes longer to get through (I chose not to say perform) than the average homily, I begin to wonder how proportional it is to the rest of the Mass.

Thanks for your explanation. To be sure, there are people who are like those you described in all styles of music, so I can understand being turned off by anyone who blatantly “perform” the duties of a musician for his/her own glory and to showcase his/her talents. I do not abide by that either as I can’t stand huge egos. And as a musician, I’ve been around all kinds - especially the female (sometimes male) singers who like to play head games with other singers in order to make them feel better about themselves and make their colleagues feel like dirt.

At the same time, if the musician’s intent is not that and it’s obvious that is the case, to me, I am very open to it as I believe sacred music is integral to worship and heightened spirituality, especially in terms of the Church’s high favor of sacred music for liturgy such as in chant and polyphony.

I also have to remember that most of these pieces of music which are sometimes likened to concert pieces - were only recently put to the concert hall and in the past were usually reserved only for mass. This has given people the idea that these pieces are concert works, when in reality they never were.

I think people today forget that sacred music is integral to mass - especially the organic kind instead of just sticking in a hymn here and there (I like hymns too, so not putting them down). We are all so eager to get out of mass right on the hour or even less, that if we have to chant the Gloria or other parts parts of the mass and mass lasts an hour and 15 minutes, it makes them think it is a performance, when really they are doing what people at mass were doing for centuries before. But that is just how I look at things.

I do appreciate your outlook on it, though, as you obviously had a bad experience with it, which is understandable why you would feel that way. We unfortunately do not live in a perfect world. I sometimes wish we did.

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

• I never seen a drumset at Mass. Not ever. Sounds like urban legend more than anything else.
• The entire Mass may be licitly sung/chanted for great solemnity. “They who sing pray twice” – St. Augustine.

*Holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer is in no way prohibited.

Chuy,
I’ve seen your posts elsewhere. Be glad you haven’t. I have. Drum set, in addition to an electric bass, with about three acoustic guitars. Granted, this is at a college Mass. But… it does exist.

 

[BSHoop96]

Hm, interesting. I knew about the Our Father, but I didn’t know the Creed was sung in chant. Either way, I think we can agree that when sung today, these are much different than when they used to be sung. It seems today that it is more for a “rock effect”, which has no place in the Church IMO.

I have one particular non-denominational Christian friend who says that the Catholic mass is “boring, and in some ways, scary.” I assume this is because the mass is not as “upbeat” as he would like. He also says that the traditional method of worship (organs, chants, etc.) is outdated and has no place in the church anymore. How would you reply to him?

I would tell him that he obviously does not understand that the Mass is the unbloody re-presentation of the sacrifice at calvary but that doesn’t make it scary. That does, however, make it an unsuitable occasion for “upbeat” and that the organ, chants are far more suitable.

 

[BSHoop96]

Third, the hand-holding issue has been discussed ad nauseum in these threads. The fact of the matter remains that there is nothing in the rubrics that indicates that this is an appropriate posture. In my opinion, it is a misguided attempt at forming community and making the faithful the subject of the prayer rather than God, the Father. Just because something isn’t in the rubrics, that doesn’t mean that we are free to insert things as we see fit. In fact, one pastor in my diocese has taken it upon himself to instruct the faithful in his parish to not hold hands during the Pater Noster. The orans posture is fine, just don’t extend your hands out too much to the point that your fingers are grabbing on to someone else’s.

Benedictgal, can you expand on this a little? I thought the orans was a big no-no for the laity as it is a gesture for the priest. Don’t the rubrics even state that the deacon is not to do it? I know you are knowledgeable about this stuff so thought I would ask your opinion.

 

[benedictgal]

Benedictgal, can you expand on this a little? I thought the orans was a big no-no for the laity as it is a gesture for the priest. Don’t the rubrics even state that the deacon is not to do it? I know you are knowledgeable about this stuff so thought I would ask your opinion.

Pope Benedict XVI, in his book, the Spirit of the Liturgy, viewed the orans position in a positive light. Unfortunately, I’ll have to dig up the quote because my pastor still has the book. It would be nice to use the orans posture; however, in my neck of the woods, some folks would see it as an automatic invitatino to hold hands.

Now, I think that there are certain postures one should not take while up there with the celebrant. The best rule of thumb is to observe what the ministers do at a Papal Mass. If you notice, the only ones who extend their hands in the orans posture are the Holy Father and his main concelebrants. The deacons do not. Msgr. Guido Marini, who is the Papal MC, does not. He and his co-MC keep their hands folded. Even the seminarians who are assisting him keep their hands folded as well. Now, the rest of the cardinals, if they are vested for Mass, will either adopt the orans posture or keep their hands folded.

I’ll have to double check on the rubrics, but, I think that the stipulation would apply if you are serving at the altar. I could be wrong.

 

[BSHoop96]

Pope Benedict XVI, in his book, the Spirit of the Liturgy, viewed the orans position in a positive light. Unfortunately, I’ll have to dig up the quote because my pastor still has the book. It would be nice to use the orans posture; however, in my neck of the woods, some folks would see it as an automatic invitatino to hold hands.

Now, I think that there are certain postures one should not take while up there with the celebrant. The best rule of thumb is to observe what the ministers do at a Papal Mass. If you notice, the only ones who extend their hands in the orans posture are the Holy Father and his main concelebrants. The deacons do not. Msgr. Guido Marini, who is the Papal MC, does not. He and his co-MC keep their hands folded. Even the seminarians who are assisting him keep their hands folded as well. Now, the rest of the cardinals, if they are vested for Mass, will either adopt the orans posture or keep their hands folded.

I’ll have to double check on the rubrics, but, I think that the stipulation would apply if you are serving at the altar. I could be wrong.

Thanks for the info. I personally don’t care for the laity using the orans position. It seems a bit showy to me. I am willing to admit that may be just a quirk I have.

Also I thought that the priest uses the orans position when he is praying “on behalf of the congregation” which we do not do.

This is probably a different twist on it and I know this is picky and I try to not focus on it but it does bother me when the laity responds to the priest with “and also with you” and include the palms flashed up at him in response.

 

[benedictgal]

This is probably a different twist on it and I know this is picky and I try to not focus on it but it does bother me when the laity responds to the priest with “and also with you” and include the palms flashed up at him in response.

Yes, that is a bit of a strange thing. I’ve seen it happen a lot down here. I almost thought it was a deep South Texas thing until you mentioned it. In fact, it happened at the funeral Mass for my friend’s mother, which occured earlier today.

It necer ceases to amaze me, though. At funerals (and weddings, for that matter), people may not know the responses (as was the case today), but, boy, when the Pater Noster starts, the hands start joining and rising. Of course, after the Ecce Agnus Dei invocation, the responses fell flat. Go figure.

 

[FrDavid96]

First of all, “we” (i.e. Catholics) do NOT hold hands during the Our Father. No offense to the original poster, but the very phrasing of the question expresses a serious problem in the Church today–that certain practices which have no place in the Mass have become so widespread that many Catholics do not even understand that these are unacceptable. The prayer itself is addressed to the Father–and it is TO the Father that our attention should be focused at that moment. Holding hands with those next to us, detract from the very heart of the prayer and distract us to concentrate on each other rather than on God. The next problem is that it is a gesture which in itself has no place in the Mass. Over the centuries, the gestures and actions of the Mass have developed organically. The things that we do, properly speaking, are integral parts of the Mass, and they “belong” there. For example, we make crosses on our foreheads, lips, and heart just before the Gospel. This gesture appropriately expresses the sentiment that we should have at that moment; namely, that the Gospel be in our minds, hearts, and lips. Holding hands during the Our Father has no legitimate purpose, no meaningful symbolism, and in fact runs completely contrary to the prayer.
Holding hands during the Our Father is a complete violation of the Second Vatican Council, which stated clearly in SC that no one, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the Sacred Liturgy. (that’s not a direct quote, but from memory) No change in the Liturgy which has not been approved by the Holy See is acceptable. Period.
As for what one should do when others try to hold hands with you at that time, I suggest that you place your hands in front of you folded in prayer, or fingers upward in the traditiona gesture of prayer, and simply ignore the offender. If someone were pulling on your ear during Mass, what would you do? Would you tolerate it? Would you pull the other person’s ear? Respond with kindness and charity, but do not participate. Remember that no one has any right to force you to do something in the Mass which is unacceptable, nor to disturb you or anyone else with childish gestures.
While I’m on my soapbox, the same holds true for the recent practice of waving at the priest (or deacon) when he says “the Lord be with you”. The opening/closing of the hands is a priestly gesture (similar to a blessing) and is done only by the priest. As evidence of this, note that the priest does NOT do this gesture before he procaims the Gospel, since at that moment, he is functioning as a deacon.

 

[FrDavid96]

Ok folks, I’m new here and posted a reply to the original without reading the whole thread; so, continuing with the messages towards the end…

There is a distinction between the “orans” position which the priest uses in certain prayers and the “opening and closing of the hands” which we usually see when the priest says “the Lord be with you” (or similar).
While it’s true that ancient Catholics used the orans position at prayer, that practice has fallen out of use. To try to bring it back is a false anachronism. 'nuff said.

When the priest says “the Lord be with you”, NO it is NOT proper to mirror that gesture back to the priest. The deacon does not do this, and in fact even a priest does not do this when he functions as a deacon in proclaiming the Gospel at Mass. That’s the strongest evidence for why this should not be done. If a priest isn’t supposed to do it unless he’s presiding, then neither should anyone else.

 

[pnewton]

This thread is difficult to respond to because of the high number of issues. It is a shotgunning of issues of which some are related, some or not. The reasons for any single issue may vary from one place to another.

For example, I can answer the reason we use a guitar in Mass. We have no other instrumentalist in the parish, despite having 1000 families. No organist, no pianist, nada. We have found that singing is more lackluster when there is nothing to help maintain pitch or rhythm.

In reference to the orans-ish action accompanying the address to the priest, this action is not in the GIRM, as any action during the Our Father. Yet I have seen many people pray with hands folded in prayer, also not in the GIRM.

 

[BSHoop96]

Ok folks, I’m new here and posted a reply to the original without reading the whole thread; **so, continuing with the messages towards the end…**There is a distinction between the “orans” position which the priest uses in certain prayers and the “opening and closing of the hands” which we usually see when the priest says “the Lord be with you” (or similar).
While it’s true that ancient Catholics used the orans position at prayer, that practice has fallen out of use. To try to bring it back is a false anachronism. 'nuff said.

When the priest says “the Lord be with you”, NO it is NOT proper to mirror that gesture back to the priest. The deacon does not do this, and in fact even a priest does not do this when he functions as a deacon in proclaiming the Gospel at Mass. That’s the strongest evidence for why this should not be done. If a priest isn’t supposed to do it unless he’s presiding, then neither should anyone else.

Well Benedictgal and I are the last two before you…and in that case…you’re preachin’ to the choir.

 

[BSHoop96]

This thread is difficult to respond to because of the high number of issues. It is a shotgunning of issues of which some are related, some or not. The reasons for any single issue may vary from one place to another.

For example, I can answer the reason we use a guitar in Mass. We have no other instrumentalist in the parish, despite having 1000 families. No organist, no pianist, nada. We have found that singing is more lackluster when there is nothing to help maintain pitch or rhythm.

In reference to the orans-ish action accompanying the address to the priest, this action is not in the GIRM, as any action during the Our Father. Yet I have seen many people pray with hands folded in prayer, also not in the GIRM.

oh goodness…that’s really reaching. Why would they speak of something that is universally so standard a position for people to use while praying and has been forever. That’s not something that has been added in the last decades for who knows what reason. Not to mention that it is not a position exclusively for the priest.

 

[FrDavid96]

PNEWTON:
You bring up an excellent point. Hands folded in prayer is not in the GIRM but is acceptable. Neither orans nor holding hands is in the GIRM, but is not acceptable. What is the difference?

Hands folded is a time-honored gesture of prayer that has been accepted by the Church from time immemorial. It is “custom” of the Church. Custom enjoys the favor of the law unless it contradicts the law. Custom must develop organically within (and not in contradiction to) the whole of the Sacred Liturgy. On a practical note, we must do something with our hands (even if that means putting them in our pockets). The proper way then, is to assume the posture of prayer that Catholics know with certainty is acceptable.

Using either the orans position or holding hands specifically contradicts the Liturgical Law of the Church. Only the priest (and perhaps concelebrants) employs the orans position during the Our Father–to extend that to anyone else is a violation of the Lit. law. As for holding hands, this likewise violates the law because it specifically adds a gesture that is not present in the liturgical law AND is not to be found in any legitimate custom. Holding hands did not develop organically out of existing liturgical practices. It is an innovation which has been imposed on people specifically as a way of certain people saying, essentially, “I know better than the Church what should be done at Mass”. Holding hands constitutes a change in the liturgical practice precisely because it becomes a “group gesture” It would be one thing if, by coincidence, everyone at Mass had his hands in his pockets at that time, but quite another thing if people were told “you must put your hands in your pockets at this time, or I will put them in there for you” (which is the attitude adopted by people who insist on holding hands and grabbing the hands of neighbors).

“Custom” does not merely mean that people in a given place have decided to so something. The principle of custom applies only when the gesture is in harmony with the faith and practices which have been handed-down to us, and which do not run contrary to existing lit. laws. Therefore, holding hands does not enjoy the privilege of being called a “custom”.

Thank you for the opportunity to expound on the difference between a legitimate custom and a violation of the the spirit and law of the Liturgy.