Why do we hold hands, have guitars, etc. in mass?

[benedictgal]

Fr. David:

What about the position that the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger took regarding the orans position? He seemed to advocate this as a posture for the laity to use. The references are found in pages 203-204. He notes that there is a historical precedent for this form of posture.

Don’t get me wrong. I agree with a great deal of what you have said. It’s just that the Holy Father made a good case for the adoption of this posture. I do not have the book with me because I lent it to my pastor so that he could look at other liturgical matters. That is why I could only print the page numbers because that is all I could find online.

Now, I do agree that the hand-holding issue has no precedent nor any organic development within the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[Chuy]

Chuy,
I’ve seen your posts elsewhere. Be glad you haven’t. I have. Drum set, in addition to an electric bass, with about three acoustic guitars. Granted, this is at a college Mass. But… it does exist.

Yeah, I am happy to have never seen a trap-set at my parish.

I do think we have to be careful about discounting certain instruments across the board. The guitar for instance. The late and great Andres Segovia showed us decades ago that the guitar has a place in the classical world. Given that it also has a place at Mass, if played correctly.

So while the pipe organ is afforded special respect within the Latin Rite of the Church, it’s not the only appropriate instrument that is played at Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

Yeah, I am happy to have never seen a trap-set at my parish.

I do think we have to be careful about discounting certain instruments across the board. The guitar for instance. The late and great Andres Segovia showed us decades ago that the guitar has a place in the classical world. Given that it also has a place at Mass, if played correctly.

So while the pipe organ is afforded special respect within the Latin Rite of the Church, it’s not the only appropriate instrument that is played at Mass.

However, where drums, keyboards and elecrtic guitars are concerned, perhaps we should keep in mind what Musicam Sacram notes:

1. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44

That is where the main bone of contention lies. Hey, it’s fine if you want to have a full set of drums, guitars and keyboards for a Jonas Brothers concert, but, not for the Mass. The two are diametrically opposed, in my opinion.

 

[FrDavid96]

On both recent issues:

Orans position: I don’t have my copy of the Pope’s book handy, nevertheless I can still offer some thoughts. Following the current liturgical laws, the orans position for the congregation isn’t acceptable. While there is historical precedent, the practice has fallen out of use. To bring back the practice would require the approval of the Holy See. While I personally would see this as a false anachronism, that would still be merely a personal opinion. It has been the constant practice of the Eastern Churches for everyone to assume the orans position during the Our Father, and this is their legitimate practice, but that does not hold for the Roman Church. None of the above changes the fact that no individual or group may make changes to the Mass which haven’t been approved by Rome. It is this most basic fact, one articulated quite clearly by Vatican II that too many “Catholics” choose to ignore. I can accept changes legitimately made to the Mass even if I disagree with them, but I cannot, and will not, accept changes which are not legitimately made (even if I do agree with them). It is one thing to say that the Holy Father has spoken favorably of the orans position, but it is another thing altogether to infer from that that the liturgical law has somehow changed. That’s not what you’re saying, Benedictgal, but it IS what some others are saying.

Of course, I do view the orans position as much less of a problem than the downright silly practice of holding hands. That one is totally unacceptable.

As for the use of the guitar: Aside from the primacy of place enjoyed by the pipe organ, there is nothing about any musical instrument that makes it either suitable or unsuitable for the Mass. The issue is twofold 1. How that instrument is seen in the context of the culture and 2. The suitability of the music itself. As for #1 the saxaphone is forbidden in the Mass in the US because of it has certain connotations in US society, and for that reason it’s inappropriate (of course, those connotations are subject to change as our cultural symbols change) The question of using a guitar at Mass has taken on a life of its own. The guitar has long been symbolic of the protestantizing of the Mass which we have unfortunately experienced in the last 40 years. That symbolism remains. It is no accident that we have the phrase “guitar Mass” which refers to a Mass in which everyone involved takes liberties. Someday that might change, but that day is a long way off. I am anticipating a response from posters to the effect that “well, let’s change that symbolism” or even “it has changed”. That leads us to #2. Regardless of what instrument is being used, we still MUST ask the question of whether or not the music itself (both the notes and the words) are suitable for the Mass. The fact remains that music that is written for the guitar, or which lends itself to the guitar, is actually not suitable for the Mass. Music written for the guitar which is suitable for the Mass remains a hypothetical possibility. When such music is written, and when the symbolism of the guitar is no more, I will be willing to revisit my views on the matter. Until that happens, I will remain of the opinion that a guitar should not be used at Mass.

 

[Digitonomy]

The fact remains that music that is written for the guitar, or which lends itself to the guitar, is actually not suitable for the Mass.

Like “Silent Night”?

 

[otjm]

First of all, “we” (i.e. Catholics) do NOT hold hands during the Our Father. No offense to the original poster, but the very phrasing of the question expresses a serious problem in the Church today–that certain practices which have no place in the Mass have become so widespread that many Catholics do not even understand that these are unacceptable. The prayer itself is addressed to the Father–and it is TO the Father that our attention should be focused at that moment. Holding hands with those next to us, detract from the very heart of the prayer and distract us to concentrate on each other rather than on God. The next problem is that it is a gesture which in itself has no place in the Mass. Over the centuries, the gestures and actions of the Mass have developed organically. The things that we do, properly speaking, are integral parts of the Mass, and they “belong” there. For example, we make crosses on our foreheads, lips, and heart just before the Gospel. This gesture appropriately expresses the sentiment that we should have at that moment; namely, that the Gospel be in our minds, hearts, and lips. Holding hands during the Our Father has no legitimate purpose, no meaningful symbolism, and in fact runs completely contrary to the prayer.
Holding hands during the Our Father is a complete violation of the Second Vatican Council, which stated clearly in SC that no one, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the Sacred Liturgy. (that’s not a direct quote, but from memory) No change in the Liturgy which has not been approved by the Holy See is acceptable. Period.
As for what one should do when others try to hold hands with you at that time, I suggest that you place your hands in front of you folded in prayer, or fingers upward in the traditiona gesture of prayer, and simply ignore the offender. If someone were pulling on your ear during Mass, what would you do? Would you tolerate it? Would you pull the other person’s ear? Respond with kindness and charity, but do not participate. Remember that no one has any right to force you to do something in the Mass which is unacceptable, nor to disturb you or anyone else with childish gestures.
While I’m on my soapbox, the same holds true for the recent practice of waving at the priest (or deacon) when he says “the Lord be with you”. The opening/closing of the hands is a priestly gesture (similar to a blessing) and is done only by the priest. As evidence of this, note that the priest does NOT do this gesture before he procaims the Gospel, since at that moment, he is functioning as a deacon.

 

[FrDavid96]

Like “Silent Night”?

A fine example of exactly what I mean. Yes, Silent Night might (and I mean MIGHT) work if accompanied by a guitar. That still doesn’t take away all the symbolic baggage accompanying the guitar. Until that goes away, no, I would not allow Silent Night by guitar at Mass. Christmas carrolling, yes, but not Mass.
Any response?

 

[otjm]

PNEWTON:
You bring up an excellent point. Hands folded in prayer is not in the GIRM but is acceptable. Neither orans nor holding hands is in the GIRM, but is not acceptable. What is the difference?

Hands folded is a time-honored gesture of prayer that has been accepted by the Church from time immemorial. It is “custom” of the Church. Custom enjoys the favor of the law unless it contradicts the law. Custom must develop organically within (and not in contradiction to) the whole of the Sacred Liturgy. On a practical note, we must do something with our hands (even if that means putting them in our pockets). The proper way then, is to assume the posture of prayer that Catholics know with certainty is acceptable.

Using either the orans position or holding hands specifically contradicts the Liturgical Law of the Church. Only the priest (and perhaps concelebrants) employs the orans position during the Our Father–to extend that to anyone else is a violation of the Lit. law. As for holding hands, this likewise violates the law because it specifically adds a gesture that is not present in the liturgical law AND is not to be found in any legitimate custom. Holding hands did not develop organically out of existing liturgical practices. It is an innovation which has been imposed on people specifically as a way of certain people saying, essentially, “I know better than the Church what should be done at Mass”. Holding hands constitutes a change in the liturgical practice precisely because it becomes a “group gesture” It would be one thing if, by coincidence, everyone at Mass had his hands in his pockets at that time, but quite another thing if people were told “you must put your hands in your pockets at this time, or I will put them in there for you” (which is the attitude adopted by people who insist on holding hands and grabbing the hands of neighbors).

“Custom” does not merely mean that people in a given place have decided to so something. The principle of custom applies only when the gesture is in harmony with the faith and practices which have been handed-down to us, and which do not run contrary to existing lit. laws. Therefore, holding hands does not enjoy the privilege of being called a “custom”.

Thank you for the opportunity to expound on the difference between a legitimate custom and a violation of the the spirit and law of the Liturgy.

Again, I would note that Archbishop Chaput sees this most differently than you do; and Rome has been innundated for decades now with complaints that have included hand holding during the Our Father. Chaput’s anser is that it (the position of the hands) is not regulated; perhaps he was reflecting on the fact that Rome has pointely ignored the issue each and every time they hav issued either a revision of the rules, or a correction of abuses. The Germanic approach to law is “wahtever is not allowed is forbidden” while the Mediterranian approach to law is “whatever is not prohibited is allowed”.

Last time I checked, Rome was considered to be in the Med. With a Germanic pope, if I am not mistaken… and the points you make have been made as long ago as 41 years. So it is not as if you have found some new answer to the issue. More ink, more angst, more time has been spilt on this issue than it is worth. We are whacking over a million babies a year through abortion. Estimates put the number of young first time marrieds at something between 80% and 90% who have had sexual experience prior to marriage - which is one of the reasons, a prime one I would suggest, that we have so many abortions; sex is the leading cause of pregnancy. I really don’t give a rat’s patootie whether people hold hands or not during the Our Father. I do care about finding a way to stop the abortion debacle. Maybe, just maybe, if we put as much effort into doing something about abortions and the sexual license that leads to them - prayer comes to mind as a starting point - as we do into long-winded dissertations about the legality of holding hands, something might change.

Or we can continue to fiddle while Rome burns.

There really is a hierarchy of issues. Holding hands just isn’t on the radar.

 

[Digitonomy]

A fine example of exactly what I mean. Yes, Silent Night might (and I mean MIGHT) work if accompanied by a guitar. That still doesn’t take away all the symbolic baggage accompanying the guitar. Until that goes away, no, I would not allow Silent Night by guitar at Mass. Christmas carrolling, yes, but not Mass.
Any response?

You said music written specifically for guitar is not suitable for mass. So you don’t think Silent Night is ever suitable for mass?

 

[FrDavid96]

Do you have a point, or are you just going to keep repeating the words “Silent Night”???

I believe that if you read the paragraph you keep quoting, you will see precisely what I mean and what I intended.

If you have an intelligent, reasonable response to what I wrote, please share it with us.

 

[FrDavid96]

OTJM
Yes, abortion and sexual licentiousness are real problems. Yes, they are bigger problems than holding hands at the Our Father. Yes, we must do more to end them. Absolutely.

No, we should not ignore liturgical abuses because we have other, more important issues to deal with.

It is just that attitude of “liturgical norms don’t matter” that got us into the mess we’re in now. In my experiences that attitude of “more important things” is realy just an excuse for people to grant themselves a license to do whatever they want liturgically. It is similar to someone saying “why worry about changing sexual norms when we have more important things to deal with like nuclear proliferation.” It just doesn’t hold water.

People know that they have no legitimate authority to change the Mass, so they try to change the subject instead. This attitude is particularly problematic among priests.

The problem is not that people like me insist on “wasting time” talking about these issues–the problem is that others feel that they know better than the Church what should be the liturgical laws.

Allow me to re-phrase what I said in an earlier post: The problem with holding hands at the Our Father is that it becomes a corporate gesture. You are correct in saying that the position of the hands is not regulated. Why, then, do certain groups regulate it? When a priest asks the congregation to hold hands, he is “regulating” it; which he cannot do. When people reach across to literally grab the hands of those next to them, whether they want to do so or not, they are regulating it. I have been in situations where people literally grab my hands pull them against my will during the Our Father. Is that acceptable? It happens.

When holding hands becomes something that the entire congregation does, and feels compelled to do, then it is being regulated.

None of what you said changes the fact that adding a gesture that is not part of the Mass and making it into a corporate gesture is indeed a violation of the liturgical norms of the Church. Romes ambiguous answer that it is “not regulated” is certainly not the same thing as saying that it is acceptable. One does not necessarily follow from the other. As far as I know, there is no “regulation” against talking on a cell phone during Mass, but that doesn’t mean that we can expand that to say that Rome has said it’s prefectly fine to talk on a cell during Mass. Of course not, that would be absurd. And its equally absurd to draw the conclusion that “not regulated” is the same thing as “acceptable.”

 

[mullenpm]

I have not been in a church in decades where a guitar or drums were used. Good Heavens!! In my parish we have a choir (excellent) at many Masses and at some just a cantor (also excellent). The music is proper Catholic church hymns – definitely not rock. I don’t think our choir or cantor would know how to sing rock.

We also do not hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer and I am sure I would not do that, even if it was a practice in any church I visited.

I would much rather be in touch with God than a person in my pew.

:knight2:

 

[Frosty]

I’ve attended Mass at many churches in many countries and I have never seen anyone holding hands during the Our Father. Is this a regional practice? Also, the only time I’ve seen someone holding their hands in the orans position was at this years’ Good Friday Services. It was the man sitting next to me, who was visiting from North Carolina.
Neither have I belonged to a parish that has used any instruments other than the organ. I do admit that some of the choirs have been hit or miss but the one in my present parish is very good and the choir at the Cathedral is outstanding.

 

[mullenpm]

All I can say is that when I was a teen the good Sisters did not much care if we were bored.

We went to Mass every morning before school and we sang when we were supposed to; made the responses in Latin; and kept quiet when we were supposed to.

And I now thank them for playing according to the rules.

 

[I_Believe]

Does anyone see what is happening here ?

All this discussion about what is acceptable and what isn’t. “Our parish does this” “Our priest says this is ok”. On, and on, and on. And when this thread dies and fades to the second, third, and lower pages of threads, another one will pop up.

Even with Fr David chiming in, we hear, But this", and "but that ". But But But. “Another priest says this” “Another says that”.

There is something very obvious here. The Ordinary Form of the Mass has become a basic outline for a diverse array of “build your own Mass”. Go to 10 Novus Ordo Masses in any given metro area, and you’ll be hard pressed to find two that match. Go to a parish this Sunday that you have never been to before and you will most likely encounter something you have never encountered before. And it will seem odd.

Is that unity ? Not in any way, shape or FORM.

Why is this ? What happened that enabled this mess ? If my memory serves me right, this sort of thing was supposed to have been straightened out a long time ago in a place called Trent.

 

[Cinette]

Regarding guitars and holding hands at Mass, allow a granny to comment.

Don’t forget that the guitar is older than the organ and was used in Spain and other countries centuries before the organ. Would that we had John Williams and Narcisio Yeppes in our Parishes. The Jews of Jesus’ time used to clap their hands, use tamborines and David even danced naked before the Ark of the Covenant :extrahappy: :extrahappy:

If you read the Psalms they are full of this joyful worship :harp: I dare say they also held hands and danced. St Paul tells the early Christians to give each other a kiss - what would you if that occurred at your liturgy? No doubt guitars and clapping (a sign of joy) are good to keep youngsters in the Church. In fact, they are leaving because of dreary choirs singing Latin only - for them at least! Though Catholic liturgical music including Gregorian chant is one of the high points of Western Civilization.

The orans position with hands extended can be seen in most catacomb paintings. Pope Benedict has also suggested we return to the ancient practice of having our altars facing east with a great west door. Will we have to break down our Churches facing the wrong way?? If we have a vital relationship with Jesus that is all that matters - these little points are not centre stage in our Christianity.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Is that unity ? Not in any way, shape or FORM.

Why is this ? What happened that enabled this mess ? If my memory serves me right, this sort of thing was supposed to have been straightened out a long time ago in a place called Trent.

What happened? Personally, I believe this is just a general attitude of permissivness everywhere—(the sexual promiscuity is probably the most evidence of this.) People are more free in general. Look at dress codes, and even rules of greeting and other etiquette.

If people ignore rules in general, why would they feel compelled to be bound by general instructions which do not address posture of the laity?

And music? the GIRM says in the last option “any other hymn approved by the Bishop” (and when have you ever heard of a Bishop telling a Pastor to change his music?)

Is there anything wrong with praying the rosary during Mass? I would certainly find this more distracting, than the orans position, and definitely decreasing the amount of participation.

The actions of the congregation are distractions, but certainly not liturgical abuses.

When people are allowed and even encouraged to ignore a stated liturgical norm such as posture for Holy Communion, why would you expect them to feel bound by some vague instruction about other postures?

Lux

 

[I_Believe]

What happened? Personally, I believe this is just a general attitude of permissivness everywhere—(the sexual promiscuity is probably the most evidence of this.) People are more free in general. Look at dress codes, and even rules of greeting and other etiquette.

If people ignore rules in general, why would they feel compelled to be bound by general instructions which do not address posture of the laity?

And music? the GIRM says in the last option “any other hymn approved by the Bishop” (and when have you ever heard of a Bishop telling a Pastor to change his music?)

Is there anything wrong with praying the rosary during Mass? I would certainly find this more distracting, than the orans position, and definitely decreasing the amount of participation.

The actions of the congregation are distractions, but certainly not liturgical abuses.

When people are allowed and even encouraged to ignore a stated liturgical norm such as posture for Holy Communion, why would you expect them to feel bound by some vague instruction about other postures?

Lux

lol It’s a virtual cornucopia aint it ?

 

[I_Believe]

Regarding guitars and holding hands at Mass, allow a granny to comment.

Don’t forget that the guitar is older than the organ and was used in Spain and other countries centuries before the organ. Would that we had John Williams and Narcisio Yeppes in our Parishes. The Jews of Jesus’ time used to clap their hands, use tamborines and David even danced naked before the Ark of the Covenant :extrahappy: :extrahappy:

If you read the Psalms they are full of this joyful worship :harp: I dare say they also held hands and danced. St Paul tells the early Christians to give each other a kiss - what would you if that occurred at your liturgy? No doubt guitars and clapping (a sign of joy) are good to keep youngsters in the Church. In fact, they are leaving because of dreary choirs singing Latin only - for them at least! Though Catholic liturgical music including Gregorian chant is one of the high points of Western Civilization.

The orans position with hands extended can be seen in most catacomb paintings. Pope Benedict has also suggested we return to the ancient practice of having our altars facing east with a great west door. Will we have to break down our Churches facing the wrong way?? If we have a vital relationship with Jesus that is all that matters - these little points are not centre stage in our Christianity.

There you have it. Take our cues from the Jews, and shake them dreary Latin blues.
:extrahappy: :dancing: :extrahappy:

What’s that Sheryl Crow song ? let’s see, how’s it go… “if it makes you happy, it can’t be that baa aa aad”

I feel so liberated now :bounce:

 

[ProVobis]

I didn’t know the Creed was sung in chant.

Yes, in the EF, the Nicene Creed chant is very effective in remembering the words.