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Walking_Home
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As should we all FrDavid96----especially since the Church has bound us all to do our part.
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As should we all FrDavid96----especially since the Church has bound us all to do our part.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
Hi again,
The Mass is community worship–it’s us and God, not me & God.
I had asked–
Is there anything wrong with praying the rosary during Mass? I would certainly find this more distracting, than hand holding, and definitely decreasing the amount of participation.
as I said–
The actions of the congregation are distractions, but certainly not liturgical abuses.
When people are allowed and even encouraged to ignore a stated liturgical norm such as posture for Holy Communion, why would you expect them to feel bound by some vague instruction about other postures?
Lux
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Aramis
Guest
With all due respect, Rev. Fr., I think you are too personally upset to see the lack of actual societal baggage. Long gone are the days where the guitar was for “Cowboys and Drifters,” or worse, derisively associated with latinos.
Seriously, the so-called “baggage” attached to the guitar is most properly pegged on the electric, and the rest is dated.
Classical and Acoustic guitars play chords well, are readily sung with, are inexpensive, and when played well, even if only strummed chords (which is about the shifting block chords some “organists” crank out), or the explicit 17th century Papal ban on the Piano-Forte (now commonly called just the Piano).
A good guitarist on a good guitar can play in a continuo style, nearly indistinguishable from a harp or harpsichord continuo.
Just about anything in 4 part chorale format can easily be done in melody plus block chords; such pieces ALL adapt well to any chordal instrument, including guitar, ukelele, mandolin, banjo, lute, dobro, harp, or guitaron.
I’ve heard the Ave Maria done beautifully as a communal hymn accompanied by acoustic guitar. I’ve also heard A Mighty Fortress, and the entire St. Louis Jesuit Mass setting done with guitar, and done nicely by a 12-string player with arpegiated block chord approach. It supported the congregational singing, and did not overtake it, and yet was memorable since it did nicely compliment the sung music.
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pnewton
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Absolutely not. And for the large part we are. This is not the issue. The issue is, what is an abuse? You will find not fan of absurdity in Mass here. Indeed, we pretty much all believe in following the GIRM as closely as possible. Do you notice the passage does not elucidate what specific abuses? JPII had a a few priests even dressing up like clowns. He had priests gathering all the children around the altar. There were priest using the TLM without an indult. He had priest changing the words to a gender neutral format.
What I am saying is that in the context of this thread, the above quote only begs the question of what is and is not and abuse, and what is observing the norms with fidelity.
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pnewton
Guest
Let me add O Sanctissima is also wonderfully suited to guitar (not strummed, though).
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Sarabande
Guest
Just to clarify regarding the piano. The early version of the modern-day piano didn’t come out until about 1700. Some sources say the late 1690s, although they are not held very strongly as true.
The Forte-piano (also known as the piano-forte) is often times today used to distinguish what we know as the “piano” today from the piano of the 18th and early 19th centuries. They did not have the same sound as the piano although it could do many of the same things. Bach never composed for it (thus his keyboard works were usually for the harpsichord) because he didn’t like the sound. If you listen to a fortepiano it does have a “tinnier” sound. It’s not as beautiful. What we know as a “Piano” came about in the 19th century. That’s when people like Chopin, Liszt, Brahms, Schumann, etc. did more compositions for either just the piano alone or for voice and piano.
So basically, the ban on the instrument was for a different sounding one than what we are thinking of today.
But to me, although I prefer the organ or just the voice alone, I also know that it is how the instrument is played. I’ve been to churches where they don’t have the money to fix their organ or are in the middle of replacing one (which can take years if they don’t have the currency) so they use a piano. Some never owned a real piano, so in the interim, they use an electric one. I don’t like electric pianos, but at the ones where they are truly using them in the interim, they musician will use a regular piano setting or an organ setting (if it’s a decent electric piano). Nothing beats a real instrument though. I’ve been to masses that used the electric and they played everything honkey-tonk. It was so laughable, my sister and I (we were kids/pre-teens at the time) couldn’t control our laughter every time the pianist played.
For the most part, unless it’s absolutely necessary, I don’t like electric instruments, but if a real instrument can be played well by a well-trained classical musician and with reverence I don’t mind it - especially if the place does not have the means to purchase an organ or anyone to actually play the organ.
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BSHoop96
Guest
Once again…here’s a quote that actually speaks to what I think Fr.David96is trying to say.
*Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum.
The argument from silence is not very strong, however, because while there is no particular difficulty in a couple, family or a small group spontaneously holding hands during the Our Father, a problem arises when the entire assembly is expected or obliged to do so.
The use of this practice during the Our Father could *detract and distract from the prayer’s God-directed sense of adoration and petition, as explained in Nos. 2777-2865 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in favor of a more horizontal ** and merely human meaning.
Not that this is the worst abuse out there or anything…but why would one want to continue a practice started spontaneously by the laity?
Anyway, this is just going to go on and on like so many of the hand-holding, blessing in communion line threads with people justifying what has never been introduced by the Church…so, I am going to try to stop now.
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pnewton
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Like praying the roasary during Mass? Was this not also something spontaneously started by laity?
I do not care if it continues or not, but I do so wish it would be addressed specifically and by name so we can all get on the same page.
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Walking_Home
Guest
The difference between the two---- is that the rosary has a God-directed sense of adoration and petition — while the hand holding has a horizontal sense.
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otjm
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I agree with JP2’s request thaqt the norms be observed; I have no desire to see the Blood fractioned after the Consecration; I have no desire to sit and listen to a lay person give the homily. I will point out again that there is no regulation concerning hand psoture during the Our Father. I would further point out that Archbishop Chaput has been publicly vocal about this particular issue, and from my observation of him - granted from Oregon rather than in his Archdiocese in Colorado - I find him to be very much a John Paul 2 bishop - and for the record, very much a Benedict 16 bishop. You have failed to acknowledge what the Archbishop has said other than to say I am putting words in his mouth. It is my humble impression that the bishop may have a slightly better grasp of both the liturgical law and practice, and the seriousness or lack thereof of the specific issue of hand holding. In short, I think he “gets it”. It appears you don’t think so, but then, it also appears you have not read what he wrote. I would again invite you to find the article and read it.
And one more time - I don’t prefer hand holding; if it went away tomorrow that would be just fine. If it were imposed as a “must do” tomorrow, I would have no problem complying with the law. I agree whole-heartedly with the bishop that no one should impose hand holding on anyone who does not wish to do so, and there has been all too many instances of people insisiting you hold their hands. That there has been a lack of charity on the part of some of those who do not want to hold hands should not be any surprise; it is all too eaasy for people to elevate the issue far beyond any charitible response. But again, I agree with the bishop - no one should impose it on another, no one should condemn it as wrong.
And as to this constant harping on “horiznotal worship”, I have yet to find anyone saying the Our Father who, if asked would not respond that they were praying to God. Not their Neighbor, but God. The Father. Our Father.
Oh, and by the way - holding hands is not a doctrinal issue, just in case you threw the second comment in there because of some perception that itmight have something, somewhere, somehow, to do with an expression of dissent from Catholic Doctrine. The last time I checked, doctrine still had God as Father (as well as Son and Spirit), and God was still our Father, as we were his children (see St Paul). So an act that shows to many people a sign of unity - Our Father - is hardly outside the confines of docrinal submission to the Church. To say that what many people see as a sign of unity is a sign of horzontal worship is simply to throw an unsubstantiated personal opinion at the issue in hopes of finding some sort of traction for one’s dislike.
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otjm
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You say it has a horzontal sense; then St Paul must have had some horzontal theology, since he repeatedly talks about the Body of Christ, and our interrelationship with one another.
the Church itself speak of Mass as a communal sacrifice; does that mean that we are horizontal in our theology? What nonsense. It is simply a code word to “I don’t like this, so I am going to snear at it”.
The Rosary has its place in our prayer life; but the Mass is the liturgy we are to participate in together. Saying a Rosary while the Mass is going on is ignoring what is going on in favor of a personal devotion - much loved an respected by the Church for centuries - but a personal devotion.
Let’s put it another way. The Rosary is a personal devotion, not an offical liturgy of the Church. It makes as much sense to say the Rosary during Mass as it does to say the Divine Office during Mass - neither have their place while Mass is being said.
Hand holding has a communal sense; that does not make it horizontal. Horizontal inmplies we are not paying attention to the words we are saying - parroting them only - simply because we hold hands as opposed to not holding hands while saying the words. I have yet to find anyone who was praying the Our Father and not paying attention to the prayer simply because they held hands with the person next to them. That bit about “horizontal” is simply a means of snearing at the issue. Let’s get real; no one by holding hands is worshiping, or even paying any significant attention to, the person next to them.
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pnewton
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And the commonality is that they both started by the laity spontaneously, even though they are not mentioned in the GIRM. (which was the issue on this thread) Don’t tell me we are going to have another exception to rule here. If we get too many of these it then the traditionalist start sounding like the innovators, who also shotgun justifications.
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Walking_Home
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I was just pointing out that while both were initiated by the laity --one is God centered while the other is not.
Ps. I am not promoting the recitation of rosary during Mass.
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Lisa44
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I just wanted to say that I agree with FrDavid on this issue.
I think FrDavid has clearly shown how it is a liturgical abuse. I don’t see how you all can continue to argue with that.
(Oh, sorry, a poster here mentioned that getting a blessing was also a liturgical abuse? Is that true? (i’m a new convert). I was taught in RCIA to go and get a blessing and that NO ONE should be left sitting in the pews. Is this correct/incorrect? Please.
I think FrDavid has clearly shown how it is a liturgical abuse. I don’t see how you all can continue to argue with that.
(Oh, sorry, a poster here mentioned that getting a blessing was also a liturgical abuse? Is that true? (i’m a new convert). I was taught in RCIA to go and get a blessing and that NO ONE should be left sitting in the pews. Is this correct/incorrect? Please.
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BayernAnhaenger
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Getting a blessing from a PRIEST is not an abuse. Getting one from an EMHC is.I just wanted to say that I agree with FrDavid on this issue.
I think FrDavid has clearly shown how it is a liturgical abuse. I don’t see how you all can continue to argue with that.
(Oh, sorry, a poster here mentioned that getting a blessing was also a liturgical abuse? Is that true? (i’m a new convert). I was taught in RCIA to go and get a blessing and that NO ONE should be left sitting in the pews. Is this correct/incorrect? Please.
But, the idea that the pews must be empty during the Communion Rite is false. It is perfectly legitimate to stay in the pew, and make a spiritual communion, especially if you are in a state of mortal sin.
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Lisa44
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What is a EMHC?
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Walking_Home
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I have yet to find anyone who was praying the Our Father and not paying attention to the prayer simply because they held hands with the person next to them. That bit about “horizontal” is simply a means of snearing at the issue. Let’s get real; no one by holding hands is worshiping, or even paying any significant attention to, the person next to them.
The Body of Christ is formed by our relationship to Christ—with Him and only thru Him. Without this relationship — there is no Body. The Mass is God centered —therefore introducing elements geared toward the human as in hand holding --does interfere with the God centeredness of the Mass.It may be towards your advantage --if before you make claim as to what horizontal implies ----you check into how is understood in reference to the Mass.
fides.org/aree/news/newsdet.php?idnews=8608&lan=eng
atican City (Fides Service) - We give below an address given by Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments at a Colloquium to celebrate the Golden Jubilee of the Institut Superieur de Liturgie of the Institut Catholique de Paris, 26 October 2006. The discourse is important for the relevance of the questions treated.
Many abuses in matters liturgical are based, not on bad will but on ignorance, because they involve a rejection of those elements whose deeper meaning is not understood and whose antiquity is not recognized" (Redemptionis Sacramentum 9). Thus some abuses are due to an undue place given to spontaneity, or creativity, or to a wrong idea of freedom, or to the error of horizontalism which places man at the centre of a liturgical celebration instead of vertically focusing on Christ and his mysteries.
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BayernAnhaenger
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Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. They are the laypeople who distribute the Body and Blood of Christ with the priest.
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BSHoop96
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Well that didn’t last long did it? Trying to exit this thread I mean.
When was the last time you looked around and saw a bunch of people praying the Rosary during the Mass?
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BSHoop96
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And you have simply ignored when people post others quoting to the contrary such as the quote I have listed twice by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum. I believe he would be someone that actually teaches liturgy so I would think his opinion would be just as knowledgeable.
That’s why this is an endless argument until the magisterium speaks. We can continue to quote different people endlessly.
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