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Walking_Home
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Our unity with the Church is made via our unity with our Lord----Not by grabbing each others hands.
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Our unity with the Church is made via our unity with our Lord----Not by grabbing each others hands.
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Lisa44
Guest
You haven’t disproved my theory. You haven’t proved anything except that Charismatics hold hands during Mass. You have side-stepped the entire debate.It is personal opinion, and disparages Charismatic worship. This is not what the Catechism teaches.
Our obligation is to form a right conscience and correct understanding. This is not the case with your theory.
Please be sure of authentic spiritual direction. Your soul depends on it.
Lux
You don’t know my soul. Again, please lets not condescend to personal insults. Lets remember that many prominant Catholics including Pope Benedict are not in love with the liturgical changes made to the Mass and prefer to celebrate the older forms of Mass.
There is no need to imply that my soul is lost or anything of that nature.
If it is an argument you want lets just stop at once. If you want to discuss why liturgical changes like ‘holding hands’ may or may not be proper liturgical form, then lets do so in a respectful manner.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
again…personal opinion.
Our unity with the Church is made via our unity with our Lord----Not by grabbing each others hands.
And I would watch the wording----it is disguising your charitable nature.
Lux
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
(The Ratzinger Report, San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1985, pp. 43-44, 151-153)You haven’t disproved my theory. You haven’t proved anything except that Charismatics hold hands during Mass. You have side-stepped the entire debate.
You don’t know my soul. Again, please lets not condescend to personal insults. Lets remember that many prominant Catholics including Pope Benedict are not in love with the liturgical changes made to the Mass and prefer to celebrate the older forms of Mass.
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What is hopeful at the level of the universal Church - and what is happening right in the heart of the crisis of the Church in the Western world - is the rise of new movements which nobody had planned and which nobody has called into being, but which have sprung spontaneously from the inner vitality of the faith itself. What is manifested in them - albeit subdued - is something like a pentecostal season in the Church. I am thinking, say, of the charismatic movement, of the Cursillos, . .
Yes, respect for all authentic Catholic worship.If it is an argument you want lets just stop at once. If you want to discuss why liturgical changes like ‘holding hands’ may or may not be proper liturgical form, then lets do so in a respectful manner
Lux
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otjm
Guest
No, what we have is people doing what they were doing before Vatican 2, but were then in much more isolated circumstances and not widely practiced - they were holding hands. On occasion. With family members.Therein lies the heart of the problem. Beginning sometime in the 1960s people who wanted to make all sorts of changes to the Mass, entirely on their ownn authority, have been claiming an “outpouring of the Holy Spirit” to justify their own personal tastes. Let’s face some reality here: most of the liturgical abuses we see today originated with the so-called “Catholic Pentecostals” who now call themselves “Charismatics” since they’ve realized that the original name more accurately reflects their protestantizing tendancies. Anything that conflicts with the liturgical laws of the Church is labeled as “inspired by the Holy Spirit,” and anyone who opposes such innovations is labeled as “opposing the Spirit.” This is a bunch of hogwash (to put it mildly).
Do we have 2 different “Holy Spirits?” One Who inspires the Magesterium and has inspired it for 2000 years, and one who inspires the Charismatic movement? It seems we do…
And it became much more widespread when those who met in charismatic prayer groups reached out to hold hands with their neighbor during the Our Father at Mass.
Hand position was not regulated prior to the changes in the Mass. It was not regulated subsequently, but a posture other than palms together became popular.
You may call it an abuse, but in general the term “abuse” has been relegated to times where there was a clear direction and the priest chose to do something different; a prime example is the direction that the priest is to give the homily, and as we have seen, lay people have in some parishes been invited to do so.
That is clearly an abuse. It would appear that you do not like people holding hands, but we’ve been this route and Rome has specifically not addressed the issue, your quoted documents to the contrary.
Given that Rome has seen fit to issue a rule as isolated as not using the name Yahweh in song, it may be that Rome will finally address the issue of hand holding; on the other hand, the comment by Rome that they did not intend to regulate posture strictly, in reference to the directive that all should stand (receiving Communion, and the question if they had to remain standing untill all had received) would militate in the opposite direction - or to put it another way, Rome could just as easily continue to ignore a 40+ year common occurance.
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benedictgal
Guest
No, it is not. We do not need to hold hands to express a unity that is going to happen a nano-second later during the Kiss of Peace and which will be express more profoundly and more deeply in the reception of Holy Communion. Were the hand-holding to the case, the Church would have placed that within the rubrics, but, she did not. Thus, it has no place within the context of the Mass. Why? There is no tradition for it in the liturgy of the Church nor is there basis for any organic development.That is exactly the purpose of hand-holding.
As John said…do what you choose, but your personal opinion, with personal interpretations prove nothing.
Lux
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benedictgal
Guest
Actually, the Holy Father is not delving into liturgy when he is discussing movements. Please do not take his words out of context. He is discussing movements like Focolare, Communion and Liberation, Communio and Opus Dei, not liturgical actions.(The Ratzinger Report, San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1985, pp. 43-44, 151-153)
Yes, respect for all authentic Catholic worship.
Lux
He has written extensively about misguided attempts at making the community more important than the Lord when it comes to worship. By the way, I, too have that book. It is at home.
It is ironic that you defend the notion of standing for communion because it is a norm (and we have all agreed that it is established as the uniform posture, but we digress becuase kneeling is valid), but, when it comes to something that is not bonafide and has no basis in liturgical Tradition nor in the rubrics, you are quick to defend that as legitimate. Sorry, but, with all due respect, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot defend something that is really indefensible because it has no basis in Tradition and it is pretty much tacked on as the idiosyncracy of an individual or a group.
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pnewton
Guest
Actually he is right on the money on the first part.again…personal opinion.
‘Our unity with the Church is made via our unity with our Lord’
We become menbers of the Body of Christ only through the baptism which we received. It is an objective reality that we become member of the Church through the Sacraments that we receive from the Lord, those of initiation.
On the other hand, if we are unified with the Lord, then we are also unified with His body and all its members. The two elements are inseparable, both in the Mass and as a theological reality.
The big joke about modern Catholics is that they hold hands and sing Kum Ba Yah, but song or not, hands or not, the reality exists.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
No, it is not. We do not need to hold hands to express a unity that is going to happen a nano-second later during the Kiss of Peace and which will be express more profoundly and more deeply in the reception of Holy Communion. Were the hand-holding to the case, the Church would have placed that within the rubrics, but, she did not. Thus, it has no place within the context of the Mass. Why? There is no tradition for it in the liturgy of the Church nor is there basis for any organic development.
This is your personal opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it.
However many disagree.
Lux
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Walking_Home
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home
Our unity with the Church is made via our unity with our Lord----Not by grabbing each others hands.
again…personal opinion.
And I would watch the wording----it is disguising your charitable nature.
Lux
Take our unity with our Lord via Holy Communion out of the picture — and we become protestants — holding hands.
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Frosty
Guest
As a child growing up in the 1950’s and 60’s, it always bothered me that the congregation did not recite the Pater Noster aloud along with the priest. I vaguely understood that the priest was praying in the name of the entire congregation but, since I had been taught that the Pater Noster was THE prayer handed down to us from Jesus Himself, it didn’t make sense to me that when we gathered together as a community to worship Him in the Mass we weren’t all saying it aloud as one voice rather than the priest basically doing the job for us. The fact that we now can all say the Pater Noster aloud is one aspect of the Pauline Mass that I appreciate the most. From the beginning of the use of the Pauline Mass, even before the vernacular became the most commonly used form, it has been my experience that when it comes time to pray the Pater Noster the congregation doesn’t mumble quietly as is often the case with many of the other responses and prayers, but speaks loudly and clearly.Of course it doesn’t have a “traditional basis” as before the Pauline Mass the priest recited the Pater Noster without the people. Since the inception of the people praying it in the vernacular however this custom has existed, making it likely just as legitimate a “custom” as folding one’s hands was in the days before the people prayed the prayer. Of course I never heard anyone complain in those days because someone held their child’s hand or put their hands on the back of the pew.
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To get back to the topic: Personally, I have never seen people holding hands during the Pater Noster at any parish I have belonged to, it appears to be more of an American practice. Where it has become the custom, I don’t see anything wrong with it and I can understand why there are many who prefer to do so… I’ve read all the arguments on this and many other threads from those who dislike the practice . . . . pagan worship, fear of germs, horizontal prayer, touchy feely mushiness, not in the GIRM, etc, etc, etc. . . .and so far I have not been impressed, to say the least. If or when, the appropriate Church authority comes out with a statement giving theological reasons why the practice should be banned then those opposed to it will have a legitimate leg to stand on, rather than personal opinion.
I know this isn’t on topic but it does have something to do with holding hands during prayer. When my family all gets together, instead of each one sitting isolated in our chairs during the Blessings before and after meals, we join hands around the table to pray. We do this as a family to give thanks to the Lord for all the blessings He has bestowed upon us, not just individually but as a whole group. Would the poster who thinks that holding hands is a pagan or wiccan practice believe that is so in this instance as well?
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Lisa44
Guest
Your meanness is apparent.(The Ratzinger Report, San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1985, pp. 43-44, 151-153)
Yes, respect for all authentic Catholic worship.
Lux
In debate, we criticize ideas not people, yet you continue to insult me.
This thread is not about the charismatic movement.
If you make one more slight against my person, or accuse me of something I did not do, then I will complain to the moderators. I don’t like to do that, but you are being remarkably uncharitable to me.
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otjm
Guest
I don’t recall that I made any insult. Post hoc ergo propter hoc is the logical fallacy that if something occurs after something else (post hoc) it is therefore (ergo) caused by it (propter hoc). Witches have most likely been holding hands for centuries. That does not mean that anyone else who holds hands is doing so because witches did so. I have read your arguement; I have also answered it because I was around when the hand holding started, and I am aware that the charismatic Catholics were doing so in prayer groups, and that it spread rapidly from there as they started reaching out to neighbors to hold hands during the Our Father in Mass.I’m not going to answer you, because it appears you haven’t read or even tried to comprehend my argument.
Pnewton disagreed with my argument, but at least he/she read my argument and offered a criticism that was valid.
Resorting to insults is not called for.
In short, it had, and continues to have, absolutely no connection to witches, pagans, New Age, or any of their ilk.
Nothing was said to insult. Many people presume post hoc indicates causation. It doesn’t, in and of itself.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
It is you who are inconsistant. You ignore a written norm, but try to enforce an opinion as norm.Actually, the Holy Father is not delving into liturgy when he is discussing movements. Please do not take his words out of context. He is discussing movements like Focolare, Communion and Liberation, Communio and Opus Dei, not liturgical actions.
He has written extensively about misguided attempts at making the community more important than the Lord when it comes to worship. By the way, I, too have that book. It is at home.
It is ironic that you defend the notion of standing for communion because it is a norm (and we have all agreed that it is established as the uniform posture, but we digress becuase kneeling is valid), but, when it comes to something that is not bonafide and has no basis in liturgical Tradition nor in the rubrics, you are quick to defend that as legitimate. Sorry, but, with all due respect, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot defend something that is really indefensible because it has no basis in Tradition and it is pretty much tacked on as the idiosyncracy of an individual or a group.
Lux
O
otjm
Guest
There are a number of posts throughout these fora which indicate that holding hands during the Our Father is not a Protestant issue - and the posts are form former Protestants.
Take our unity with our Lord via Holy Communion out of the picture — and we become protestants — holding hands.
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pnewton
Guest
This is a true statement. Holding hands at church service was something we never did. I always thought it was more of a Catholic thing when I first saw it.There are a number of posts throughout these fora which indicate that holding hands during the Our Father is not a Protestant issue - and the posts are form former Protestants.
edit: from Walking Home
I apologize if I jumped on a red herring. I never could resist a fish dinner.I was not addressing whether hand holding is a protestant issue. I was pointing out that our unity is via our Lord. He is our unity and thru Him we are united to the Church.
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Walking_Home
Guest
There are a number of posts throughout these fora which indicate that holding hands during the Our Father is not a Protestant issue - and the posts are form former Protestants.
I was not addressing whether hand holding is a protestant issue. I was pointing out that our unity is via our Lord. He is our unity and thru Him we are united to the Church. Without this unity with our Lord --we might as well be protestant holding hands.
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ncjohn
Guest
Yes, there is a tradition. A 40 year tradition that according to canon law qualifies as a “custom”. Rubrics are not necessary to create a custom. Customs can also occur through long-time unabrogated use of the faithful. That is one form of organic development.Actually, the term “misguided” isn’t uncharitable at all. The fact remains that there is no tradition for hand-holding in the liturgy. The Pater Noster is directed towards God the Father not at each other. We are not the focus of the Pater Noster; the Father is.
Inasmuch as there are seven petitions that we direct towards the Father, the point is that they are directed towards Him not towards us.
Now, communion is mult-layred. Not only are we uniting ourselves with Jesus in a profound way, we are also uniting ourselves with the Church (who is the Body of Christ). That is why, for example, those who support abortion rights (as is the case with certain politicians who call themselves Catholics) are denied Holy Communion because they are not in Communion with the Church. Furthermore, the Kiss of Peace before the Fraction Rite establishes and reinforces genunine community, if you will, because we reconcile ourselves with each other prior to receiving Our Lord, which is more profound and more meaningful than a hand-holding gesture.
To say that hand-holding finds its “tradition” to the Pauline Mass is a misnomer because it is not found anywhere in the rubrics nor in the GIRM. I have a Roman Missal from 1969 and no such rubric exists. There is no hand-holding posture. The hand-holding gesture is a personal idiosyncracy that someone or some group inserted into the Mass on their own initiative and is not part of the organic development of the Mass.
One last thing: in his book, “The Spirit of the Liturgy”, the Holy Father refers to such attempts at introducing a false sense of community as “misguided”. He uses that term. Francis Cardinal Arinze uses the term idiosyncracies a lot in his addresses and writings.
There is nothing about holding hands that makes it less directed toward God, or makes it directed at each other. It is simply a sign like other signs. You may find the sign of peace adequate as a substitute. The Vatican specifically said the two cannot be substituted as they are not the same thing.
Again, you may not like it. The Church however has taken no such position in all the decades it has been around. So again, please leave the condescension and judgment at the door. It is not your place any more than it would be for me to make judgments on your preferred signs of piety.
Peace,
B
benedictgal
Guest
Lux, please be so kind as to demonstrate where the justification lies, using official Church documents, for this posture? There is none, as far as I can tell. While there is justification for kneeling to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion, because it is a universal posture, there is nothing in any version of the GIRM that allows for hand-holding during the Pater Noster, absolutely nothing.
This is your personal opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it.
However many disagree.
Lux
Now, this is very off-topic, but, it is very important. This thread has turned highly polemical, but, there is one thing that I believe all of us can agree on:
CAF needs our help. Whether we are on any particular side of the fence, or no side, I think that we need to be on the CAF side and help the cause. I didn’t realize how bad things were until I read the sticky. I think that we can call a small truce, band together and help keep these forums going.
Now, back to the battle.
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Lisa44
Guest
bringing in a stray comment about witches and pagans does nothing to enhance the discussion. .
I don’t recall that I made any insult. .
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