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Thomas_Dowd
Guest
This may seem a highly ignorant question, seeing is Mary is regarded as the Mother of God, and Holy Queen, but why does Mary get so much devotion, while Joseph doesn’t? Why does Joseph not hold similar titles?
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crazzeto
Guest
Mary was Jesus’s mother, and was conformed completely to his heart
She was born Immaculate
Free of personal sin
Was with him from birth to death
Is actually written about in the gosple beyond the opening few passages of gospel
Josheph was
A step father to Jesus
Did teach him what he needed to know to be a man in his day
Did teach him his trade of carpentry
however
Apparently died prior to the crusifixion
little is known about him
was not born Immaculate (there was no need for this, and there is no OT backup for this like there is for Mary)
Is not as conformed to Christ as Mary
has no direct role in the salvation of humaity, though a critical indirect one.
She was born Immaculate
Free of personal sin
Was with him from birth to death
Is actually written about in the gosple beyond the opening few passages of gospel
Josheph was
A step father to Jesus
Did teach him what he needed to know to be a man in his day
Did teach him his trade of carpentry
however
Apparently died prior to the crusifixion
little is known about him
was not born Immaculate (there was no need for this, and there is no OT backup for this like there is for Mary)
Is not as conformed to Christ as Mary
has no direct role in the salvation of humaity, though a critical indirect one.
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FickleFreckled
Guest
St. Joseph is overlooked a lot. However, he was St. Teresa of Avila’s special patron and a great help and consolation to her. Would Jesus be any less likely to respond to Joseph’s intercession than He would to Mary’s? I don’t think so. Jesus loved him as a father, a mentor and an example of patience, trust and faith. Jesus learned at his knee. He’s the perfect saint for anyone who’s lost their dad, never knew their dad or whose dad maybe wasn’t much of a father.
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
You would get some Catholic argument on all of your above points. Many believe (including Saints and Theologians) that St. Joseph was born immaculate. Likewise, his discipleship to Jesus can be assumed to be perfect. Lastly St. Joseph’s role in the Incarnation was indeed critical and necessary.
There are many very good reasons to explain the lesser attention that St. Joseph apparently receives.
One, as someone already said, is because there is scant mention of St. Joseph in the Bible.
Two, looking back on Church History, it took many centuries for the Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary to develop, due to the fear that it would distract from the main message of the Gospel. Even in our own time, the devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary remains subject to much suspicion and doubt. So naturally devotion to St. Joseph would be regarded with still more suspicion and doubt.
Three, The Blessed Virgin Mary was indeed blessed and endowed with a much greater dignity than St. Joseph, by her Bearing of God, our Savior. (Although Jesus makes it clear that it is her doing the Will of God that really is the source of her greatest merit --Luke 11: 27-28) St. Joseph thoroughly understood this, and was Mary’s first and most sublime devotee. We can be sure that St. Joseph would always be delighted with the extra devotion given to his holy spouse.
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crazzeto
Guest
There is some early christian writing to this regard, but it’s not dogmatic. I would guess that part of the reason for this is due to association with Mary and Christ. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn’t, the thing here is the Church does not now (or really has it ever dogmatically taught) this. Whether or not he was, it really doesn’t affect the story much. There was no specific reason for him to be Immaculate, there is also no scriptual support for this unlike Mary:You would get some Catholic argument on all of your above points. Many believe (including Saints and Theologians) that St. Joseph was born immaculate. Likewise, his discipleship to Jesus can be assumed to be perfect. Lastly St. Joseph’s role in the Incarnation was indeed critical and necessary.
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=3&l=15&f=s#x
Josheps role in the incarnation was to not have his wife stoned, not divorous her, and take care of her and Christ as a child. All of this is important, but nearly so much as carrying Christ, following him through his entire life etc.
As far as a perfect desipleship, the only way you get here is by accepting non-dogmatic early christian writing that he must have been born immaculate based on his association to Mary and Jesus. But did he need to be perfectly formed to Christ? I don’t know, as far as I know the Church doesn’t teach that he was. Ultimatly his job was to properly form Christ’s humanity.
Basically I’m not arguing your point per-se, what I am doing however is pointing how how you’ve exited the realm of solid theological ground and entered a little more into the realm of the unknown. I think this is why the Church doesn’t dogmatically teach the points you bring, because it’s difficult to build the case, in part because one can question “well, is any of that necessary?”.
Dont get me wrong, I feel for Joseph, I’m just here pointing out why he gets “the short end of the stick”.
This isn’t true, by the thrid generation of christdom the church all over the world had already developed the devotion to Mary… The theology of the second Eve was well entrenched in Palistine, Rome & Asia Minor, after just 3 generations! I’ll post specifics after lunch, I need to pick up my “Second Eve” book written by John Henry Numan. Taking into account the wide geographic range of the beliefs, one must assume that the beliefs were not developed in the 2nd century but rather are based upon pre-existing belief.
I suggest this book to you:
amazon.com/Mary-Second-Henry-Cardinal-Newman/dp/0895551810/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256743490&sr=8-1
Well we agree here.Three, The Blessed Virgin Mary was indeed blessed and endowed with a much greater dignity than St. Joseph, by her Bearing of God, our Savior. (Although Jesus makes it clear that it is her doing the Will of God that really is the source of her greatest merit --Luke 11: 27-28) St. Joseph thoroughly understood this, and was Mary’s first and most sublime devotee. We can be sure that St. Joseph would always be delighted with the extra devotion given to his holy spouse.
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
We actually agree pretty much entirely. I was only pointing out Church teaching that contradicts certain assumptions you made. True, it is not dogmatic Church teaching, but that doesn’t nullify the fact that it is still Church teaching.
As for the early regard held for the Blessed Virgin Mary, that is not something we disagree on either. My statements were referring to devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, as we understand it now. Devotion to, and the Dignity of, the Blessed Virgin Mary are two different subjects.
But the main point I was making is that there is much ancient and continuous church teaching regarding St. Joseph, even if it is not dogmatically defined. For example, the church taught that the Pope was infallible long, long before it was dogmatically defined at the first Vatican Council. So it is unhelpful to wave away teachings that are not currently dogmatically defined. Of course that means you may hold other opinions in the meantime, and that is fine. I just wouldn’t want anyone to equate non-dogmatic church teachings with erroneous or non-existent church teachings.
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Thomas_Dowd
Guest
So is it plausible that in the future we will be celebrating the Immaculate Conception of Joseph?
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
We don’t celebrate the immaculate birth of St. John the Baptist, so I don’t think we would celebrate St. Joseph’s either. When discussing theological issues, it is very important to pay attention to the words.
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Robbinson
Guest
I dont’ see how - The catechism indicates that Mary’s exemption from original sin was a “singular grace” (meaning unique).
**"491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin."
Blessings,
Brian
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FCEGM
Guest
St. Joseph has been a dear patron since my childhood. He is also the great favorite of my husband. From the Litany to St. Joseph:
Illustrious Son of David
Splendor of Patriarchs
Spouse of the Mother of God
Chaste protector of the Virgin.
Foster-father of the Son of God
Zealous defender of Christ
Head of the Holy Family
Joseph most just
Joseph most pure
Joseph most prudent
Joseph most courageous
Joseph most obedient
Joseph most faithful
Mirror of patience
Lover of poverty
Model of workmen
Glory of domestic life.
Guardian of virgins
Mainstay of families
Comfort of the afflicted
Hope of the sick
Patron of the dying
Terror of demons
Protector of the Holy Church
acfp2000.com/St.%20Joseph/St.%20Joseph%20-%20Perfect%20Adorer.html
catholictradition.org/Joseph/joseph25.htm#2
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
Note that on June 24 we celebrate the Birth of John the Baptist as a Solemnity - the highest grade of feast.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Because Joseph was nothing more than an incubator…oh, wait…never mind.
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Mark77
Guest
Because Mary said Yes and was the only human being to be with Jesus from conception to His death on the Cross, His Resurrection and His Ascension to Heaven!
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!
mark
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!
mark
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puzzleannie
Guest
because Mary is the Mother of God and Queen of Heaven and Earth, and Joseph is not. He is the earthly husband of Mary and foster father of Jesus. He receives the devotion due him for this role. He is one of the most honored saints in the canon, but no, he was not immaculately conceived and not the Ark of the Covenant that held the Redeemer. He is justly honored for his role in salvation history, and is content with that.
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The_Way
Guest
That it so beautiful!!
I read somewhere that St Joseph was the only saint who had the honour of being called “father” by the Son of God.
God bless,
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crazzeto
Guest
lol, good answerBecause Joseph was nothing more than an incubator…oh, wait…never mind.
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patrick457
Guest
The others have given very well and solid answers so I won’t waste words by repeating themselves here, but there might also be a historical precedent for this:
Even in the early ages of Christian history, we already find Mary being well-known and held in high regard by the followers of her Son - many hymns were sung, many icons were painted, many churches were dedicated, and many debates were fought concerning the most holy, pure, blessed and glorious Godbearer. In contrast, St. Joseph is pretty much Mr. Invisible Guy Who Literally Gets Pushed Off Into The Background. The Gospels mention Mary more than Joseph, who just appears in the infancy narratives and goes out of its pages without having a dialogue of his own - as if he never existed (the only thing that keeps us aware of this Joseph guy is the complaint of the people of Nazareth: “Is this not the son of the workman/carpenter?”). Mary fared better than him in that she at least gets some cameo appearances well into her Son’s adulthood.
He gets no listing of his own in Migne’s well-known Patrologiae Latina, a 221-volume collection of Church writings in Latin up to 1216, is literally either pushed off the side in one corner, ignored, or made to do menial tasks in Christian art, given less-than-flattering portrayals in apocryphal literature, and even played the subordinate old man to Mary in medieval plays! No feastday, no icon of his own, no hymn, and no church did St. Joseph have for about 1000 years of Christian history (the cult of St. Joseph only caught up some steam in the medieval period, finally flourishing in the Counter-Reformation). Before Pope John XXIII inserted his name in the Roman Canon, his name does not even show up in the propers of the Mass; even today, St. Joseph is not mentioned in the Divine Liturgy, and probably, in OF Masses (no “Joseph” in Eucharistic Prayer II, III or IV). He was simply the Rodney Dangerfield in the Communion of Saints.
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2373/josepho.jpg
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Mary is honored more as Mater Dei, but Joseph is honored a lot. In our church we have a statue of Mary with the infant Christ in one apse, and one of Joseph holding the lily in the other. Each is on either side of the altar so they get equal billing.
There are many, many Catholic churches named St. Joseph.
Joseph was part of the Holy family. He is always present in the creche scenes at Christmas.
I agree that Mary receives more prayers from pentitents, but Joseph is very honored.
There are many, many Catholic churches named St. Joseph.
Joseph was part of the Holy family. He is always present in the creche scenes at Christmas.
I agree that Mary receives more prayers from pentitents, but Joseph is very honored.
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Mintaka
Guest
First of all, let’s remember that probably most of the disciples and apostles never met St. Joseph, because he seems to have died before Jesus’ public life began. (Unlike Mary, who was apparently a pillar of the early Church and lived in John’s house like his mom.) To the apostles and disciples who were related to Mary or to Joseph, he probably would have been a respected figure; but one from the previous generation, and who was off in Egypt for a good chunk of time.
Mostly, though, I think he was just a quiet hardworking guy and a just man. He wasn’t some great charismatic figure of a prince of the House of David; he was a quiet strength in the background who just did the right thing and got the job done. He probably let his craft speak for him. Mary may have done a lot of the talking, as when she spoke to Jesus at the Finding in the Temple.
So if you ask me why Joseph didn’t get devotion, I’d say it was because he didn’t want it.
You did sometimes see him referenced for a happy death (like the apocryphal story about him) or in scenes of Christ harrowing hell, and joyfully bringing out John the Baptist and Joseph along with the patriarchs and Adam and Eve.
Now, when everything started getting messed up as the modern world began, that’s when we see St. Joseph stepping up to give more open help and be more openly honored. If there’s a need, he’s there. He’s a very kindly saint.
But he likes the background best, I think.
Mostly, though, I think he was just a quiet hardworking guy and a just man. He wasn’t some great charismatic figure of a prince of the House of David; he was a quiet strength in the background who just did the right thing and got the job done. He probably let his craft speak for him. Mary may have done a lot of the talking, as when she spoke to Jesus at the Finding in the Temple.
So if you ask me why Joseph didn’t get devotion, I’d say it was because he didn’t want it.
You did sometimes see him referenced for a happy death (like the apocryphal story about him) or in scenes of Christ harrowing hell, and joyfully bringing out John the Baptist and Joseph along with the patriarchs and Adam and Eve.
Now, when everything started getting messed up as the modern world began, that’s when we see St. Joseph stepping up to give more open help and be more openly honored. If there’s a need, he’s there. He’s a very kindly saint.
But he likes the background best, I think.
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
Do note that Saint Joseph is Patron of the Universal Church. As he was the protector of Jesus, he is now protector of His Bride.
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