Why do we need Purgatory if our punishment has been erased?

[westcoast]

I thought the punishment for our sins was erased when Jesus on the cross. I thought that this torture and death he endured “made up” for our sins and took away our punishment. If this is true (or is it?), why do we still need to go to Purgatory? Why is there still the stain of sin on our souls (so we cannot go direct to Heaven) if Jesus died for our sins? I thought all of our debts were forgiven and forgotten…?? Why do we still have to “pay” for them? Thank you.

 

[mommyof4]

Here is a link to one of the many excellent articles that explains purgatory:

catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp

 

[VociMike]

Two questions:

Are you perfect now?

Will you be perfect when you enter heaven?

If you answered “no” and “yes”, what will have changed?

If you answered anything else, say what?!

 

[Genesis315]

All of our punishment was not taken away on the Cross–just our eternal punishment. Temporal punishment for sin remains.

Heb. 12:5 And you have forgotten the consolation, which speaketh to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord; neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him. 6 For whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? 8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. 9 Moreover we have had fathers of our flesh, for instructors, and we reverenced them: shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits, and live? 10 And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification. 11 Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield, to them that are exercised by it, the most peaceable fruit of justice.

 

[Windmill]

I’ve heard it explained like this:

If you swing a bat, hit a ball, and it goes through the neighbor’s window, you have caused damage. Let’s pretend you did this intentionally. However, you have a moment of conscience and you go to the neighbor, like a good Catholic, apologize and ask forgiveness. He says, “I forgive you.” You go to confession and confess your behavior. You are absolved. However, you are required to have a firm purpose of amendment which, in this case, means recompensation for inflicting unjust damages on your neighbor.

Your neighbor and God have forgiven you of the guilt (both temporal and eternal), Christ’s atonement on the Cross has forgiven you the eternal punishment of your sin (ie, the just deserving of Hell). However, temporal punishment remains. In this case, the temporal punishment would be the money you are out when you pay for the window to be fixed.

Imagine your neighbor’s response if, when he asks you to pay for the window, you say, “The Blood of the Cross has atoned for my sin.”

 

[westcoast]

Two questions:

Are you perfect now?
No, I am not. But didn’t Jesus die for my sins? and I’m forgiven if I’m sorry? and if I’m not, don’t I just go to hell?

Will you be perfect when you enter heaven? I thought all of our sins were erased so we were made perfect?

If you answered “no” and “yes”, what will have changed? What changed? God forgave me. Or is that wrong?

If you answered anything else, say what?!

I don’t know! That’s why I’m asking !

 

[westcoast]

I’ve heard it explained like this:

If you swing a bat, hit a ball, and it goes through the neighbor’s window, you have caused damage. Let’s pretend you did this intentionally. However, you have a moment of conscience and you go to the neighbor, like a good Catholic, apologize and ask forgiveness. He says, “I forgive you.” You go to confession and confess your behavior. You are absolved. However, you are required to have a firm purpose of amendment which, in this case, means recompensation for inflicting unjust damages on your neighbor.

Your neighbor and God have forgiven you of the guilt (both temporal and eternal), Christ’s atonement on the Cross has forgiven you the eternal punishment of your sin (ie, the just deserving of Hell). However, temporal punishment remains. In this case, the temporal punishment would be the money you are out when you pay for the window to be fixed.

Imagine your neighbor’s response if, when he asks you to pay for the window, you say, “The Blood of the Cross has atoned for my sin.”

Is there any Biblical reference for this response? Just checking.

 

[Fidelis]

Is there any Biblical reference for this response? Just checking.

You mean is baseball mentioned in the Bible? Nope.

If you mean, where do we find this principle in the Bible, here is one explanation from a Catholic Answers article about Purgatory:

Scripture indicates that even after repentance temporal consequences of sin remain.

For example, 2 Samuel tells us of the remaining consequence of David’s adultery and murder even after his repentance: “David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ And Nathan said to David, ‘The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die’” (2 Sam. 12:13–14). David lost his child as a consequence of sins that he had already repented.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains such consequences this way:

*Sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified. . . . This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin *(CCC 1472).
catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0602btb.asp

 

[Nita]

I thought the punishment for our sins was erased when Jesus on the cross. I thought that this torture and death he endured “made up” for our sins and took away our punishment. If this is true (or is it?), why do we still need to go to Purgatory? Why is there still the stain of sin on our souls (so we cannot go direct to Heaven) if Jesus died for our sins? I thought all of our debts were forgiven and forgotten…?? Why do we still have to “pay” for them? Thank you.

Hi westcoast and welcome to CAF,

The punishment DUE our sins was taken away. What is “due” us is eternity in hell. This we do not have to undergo (assuming we have repented).

Windmill has explained temporal punishment.

Keep in mind, when we sin we have to seek God’s forgiveness. And when we do, He does forgive us. Yet, some of the underlying causes that led us to that sin may still remain in us. (eg. greed, envy, avarice, etc.) We often die before all of that is totally cleansed from our hearts and minds. Before we can enter heaven, we need to be “purged” of all sinfulness. Hence the name “purgatory” was given to identify this after death stage of our cleansing.

*Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. *
(John is speaking of who can enter heaven.)

Nita

 

[VociMike]

I don’t know! That’s why I’m asking !

Well, I expect that you know if you’re perfect now. I’ll assume you said “no”.

And I expect that you know if you’ll be perfect in heaven. I’ll assume you said “yes”.

So, how does one go from imperfect to perfect, from impure to pure, from sinful to sinless, from inclination towards sin to no inclination towards sin? Simple answer: God does it. And the process of God transforming us is called purgatory.

It’s not about punishment in the common sense. It’s about breaking the hold that sin has over us. That will be painful, will cause suffering, and the more so the more of a hold that sin has over us. But it is simply the pain of ejecting the evil that still lives within us.

Could God perform this transformation on us without any suffering, any pain? I’m not sure He could without violating our free will, but I’ll leave that for others to discuss.

 

[Lillith]

I was once able to explain the Doctrine of purgatory to my SIL (who is a baptist) in the most simple, straightforward way possible…The conversation went like this…

I started off by saying…We all have our difficulties with attachment to sin…some eat too much…others gossip or lie…ect…ect… but we all agree that these behaviors will not happen once we are in the presence of God…I asked My sil how this happens…and she said “God miraculously changes our human nature…he cleanses us”…I said, well, we Catholics call that process Purgatory…

I noticed you want Bible quotes…so here’s one

Passage 1 Corinthians 3:13-15:
13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

To me…Purgatory is the easiest Doctrine to find Biblical support of…there it is in bold…

 

[Fidelis]

I was once able to explain the Doctrine of purgatory to my SIL (who is a baptist) in the most simple, straightforward way possible…The conversation went like this…

I started off by saying…We all have our difficulties with attachment to sin…some eat too much…others gossip or lie…ect…ect… but we all agree that these behaviors will not happen once we are in the presence of God…I asked My sil how this happens…and she said “God miraculously changes our human nature…he cleanses us”…I said, well, we Catholics call that process Purgatory…

That is exactly the approach I use, and one that seems to resonate well with non-Catholic Christians. I usually preface it with the passage Nita cited in Post #9 (Revelation 21:27) as well as the verse in Hebrews that says we must “strive for that holiness without which one will not see God” (Hebrews 12:14).

Once you can help someone see, in a personal manner, the necessity of some kind of purgation before we enter God’s presence-- and how it is actually a manifestation of the Divine Mercy-- the other details (terminology, nature, duration, etc.) seem almost secondary.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You mean is baseball mentioned in the Bible? Nope.

Actually, the Bible begins, “In the big inning…”

 

[Fidelis]

Actually, the Bible begins, “In the big inning…”

uch:

 

[Todd_Easton]

I thought the punishment for our sins was erased when Jesus on the cross. I thought that this torture and death he endured “made up” for our sins and took away our punishment. If this is true (or is it?), why do we still need to go to Purgatory? Why is there still the stain of sin on our souls (so we cannot go direct to Heaven) if Jesus died for our sins? I thought all of our debts were forgiven and forgotten…?? Why do we still have to “pay” for them? Thank you.

In the Sacrament of Baptism, all punishment due to past sins is forgiven because it is a full participation in the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

Since there is only “one Baptism” (Ephesians 4:5), sins committed after Baptism are dealt with in the Sacrament of Confession. In the Sacrament of Confession, all eternal punishment due to sins committed after Baptism is forgiven but some temporal punishment may remain because Confession is only a partial participation in the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

The temporal punishment for sins remaining after Confession is forgiven though penance in this life and/or Purgatory in the next life.

 

[Hellisreal]

I thought the punishment for our sins was erased when Jesus on the cross. I thought that this torture and death he endured “made up” for our sins and took away our punishment. If this is true (or is it?), why do we still need to go to Purgatory? Why is there still the stain of sin on our souls (so we cannot go direct to Heaven) if Jesus died for our sins? I thought all of our debts were forgiven and forgotten…?? Why do we still have to “pay” for them? Thank you.

Past debts or current debts or future debts?

Is your belief that Christianity is like getting cable without any monthly fees?

I dont have any doubts about what Jesus did on the Cross and am offended you think I do. considering many faiths out there today cant even seem to stand the sight of a Crucifix.

Irony.

 

[kell0618]

Your kid breaks a window while throwing stones in a field by a neighbor’s house. You make the child apologize to the neighbor (confession). Then you make your child work off the money needed to pay for the repairs (purgatory).

It is a doormat upon which we wipe our feet before we enter the house of our Lord.

 

[tptram]

it is a furnace to forge and purify our souls as brilliant as pure silver.

In the Book of the Prophet Zechariah, the Lord spoke, “I will bring the one third through fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and I will test them as gold is tested” (13:9)

Tak

 

[Vincent]

When we are baptized, we “are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, joint heirs with Christ; so that there is nothing whatever to hinder [our] entrance into heaven” (Cf. Council of Trent, Session 5, Canon 5).

But what happens if we sin *after *baptism?

Sin, by its very nature, causes us to dis-integrate, to fall out of order, and thus, suffer. There is thus a sort of “punishment” that’s built into sin.

And the punishment that concerns us here, which follows from the very nature of sin, is this:"[E]very sin. . .entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1472).
So, if we sin after baptism, we will suffer from this unhealthy attachment to creatures, especially, I would speculate, the “Number 1” creature: me! Sin entails disordered self-love, in other words.

Since in baptism we are reborn as adopted sons and daughters in the Son of the God who is Love, the life of total self-giving and receptivity is our orientation, too. Sin, however, is when our love implodes, turns inward, sinking into the self instead of radiating outwards to God, as it’s meant to be. And so, sin, the failure of love, entails the unhealthy attachment to creatures- -love gone awry --, and its built right into the very nature of sin itself.

The God who is Love is absolutely just. From the perspective of justice, this unhealthy attachment “serves us right”: because of what sin is, it’s a “punishment” we deserve. The injustice of sin means that we “pay” for it, and paying for it involves suffering.

But it’s helpful to keep in mind, as the *Catechism *notes, that this punishment is “not a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without…” Rather, the punishment of sin that is the unhealthy attachment to creatures follows from “the very nature of sin”.

To use an analogy, suffering a burnt hand is a sort of “punishment” for playing with fire: if you stick your hand into fire, you’ll get burned. Why? Because, that’s the very nature of fire: it burns.

The “unhealthy attachment to creatures” is thus a punishment due to sin. It’s called the *temporal *punishment of sin, to distinguish it from the eternal punishment of sin, which is Hell.

 

[Dakota_Maverick]

take a look at Divine Mercy Sunday - you can remove all your punishment time.