Why do we need the Church? Not A Church, but THE Church.

[lizaanne]

This is awesome - I just love this priest, he really knows how to say it.

Shadow Priest

So - to those who are not Catholic, what do you think about this? Why do you think you can live just fine without the Catholic Church?

~Liza

 

[Eucharisted]

I’ll tell you what I told my Mormon friend, Jason:

Jesus Christ is God Incarnate. He has a Body. The Church is His Body (Col 1:18, 1 Cor 12:20-27). So if you don’t need the Church, than you don’t need Jesus.

 

[lizaanne]

Yeah - but you are Catholic. You KNOW that we need Christ’s Church. I’m wondering about those who have turned their back on the Truth - why do they think they can successfully and assuredly get to heaven via the “church of me”.

~Liza

 

[Louie1983]

Yeah - but you are Catholic. You KNOW that we need Christ’s Church. I’m wondering about those who have turned their back on the Truth - why do they think they can successfully and assuredly get to heaven via the “church of me”.

~Liza

Because they believe that the church is all man-made laws and that it’s fallible. Funny that, they won’t trust the holy magisterium of the catholic cburch because they believe they are fallible - but they will trust their own interpretations…hmmmm, doesn;t make sense to me.

 

[JonNC]

This is awesome - I just love this priest, he really knows how to say it.

Shadow Priest

So - to those who are not Catholic, what do you think about this? Why do you think you can live just fine without the Catholic Church?

~Liza

Liza,
I found the presentation to be a well done blend of Catholic apologetics and polemics, except for the disgusting “Chirst was a liar” polemics which can only be intended to drive wedges. Therefore, I saw nothing that would lead someone who might be inclined to look into the Catholic Church, to feel a warm invitation to look more deeply.
I just don’t see how dialogue with the hopes of reconciliation is advanced by polemics from either side.

Jon

 

[lizaanne]

Liza,
I found the presentation to be a well done blend of Catholic apologetics and polemics, except for the disgusting “Chirst was a liar” polemics which can only be intended to drive wedges. Therefore, I saw nothing that would lead someone who might be inclined to look into the Catholic Church, to feel a warm invitation to look more deeply.
I just don’t see how dialogue with the hopes of reconciliation is advanced by polemics from either side.

Jon

That’s ok - I totally understand that people will look for every little wedge of an excuse to avoid the Truth. I get that. Sad, but true. My response is GET OVER IT. Stop finding excuses for denying the Fullness of Truth.

~Liza

 

[JonNC]

That’s ok - I totally understand that people will look for every little wedge of an excuse to avoid the Truth. I get that. Sad, but true. My response is GET OVER IT. Stop finding excuses for denying the Fullness of Truth.

~Liza

Liza,
If you have viewed any of my posts here at CAF, you might know that I can easily overlook the little wedges. It is the huge wedges that are intended to divide, such as the one I mentioned, that bother me. They interfere with people of good will on both sides who are sincerely interested in reconciliation, and therefore Christ’s call that we be one.
Your shouted response of “Get over it” indicates to me that you might not understand that insulting someone’s current faith communion will not endear that person to your’s, that intentionally driving people apart with wedge polemics will not bring people together.

Jon

 

[lizaanne]

Your shouted response of “Get over it” indicates to me that you might not understand that insulting someone’s current faith communion will not endear that person to your’s, that intentionally driving people apart with wedge polemics will not bring people together.

Jon

Jon - this is not about making friends and feeling all fuzzy wuzzy. I don’t need to be your friend, but I absolutely DO want you to get to heaven. My concern is for your soul, and for the souls of all those who feel that just because they don’t get the warm and happy hug that the Truth is not worth it.

I’m not insulting anyone’s faith communion - this is not a personal assault. I’m just saying that there are many many out there who will find any and every little excuse to keep them away from the Fullness of Truth. And the only way that can possibly end is if they just get over the pettiness and get right with God and His One True Faith.

~Liza

 

[JonNC]

=lizaanne;5473656]
I’m not insulting anyone’s faith communion - this is not a personal assault. I’m just saying that there are many many out there who will find any and every little excuse to keep them away from the Fullness of Truth. And the only way that can possibly end is if they just get over the pettiness and get right with God and His One True Faith.

Not you, Liza. I was talking about the Shadow Priest’s comments.

There are certainly folks who will not overlook anything to enter into dialogue, and try to come together. On that we agree. I would also contend to you that there are many (most) in Protestant faith communions that couldn’t care less about anyone else’s claim to Fullness of Truth. Their fervent faith in Christ is where it is, and others - you, me, anyone - are irrelevant. In short, they don’t need excuses, as they simply have never considered other viewpoints.

Jon - this is not about making friends and feeling all fuzzy wuzzy. I don’t need to be your friend, but I absolutely DO want you to get to heaven. My concern is for your soul, and for the souls of all those who feel that just because they don’t get the warm and happy hug that the Truth is not worth it.

Well, fuzzy wuzzy is clearly better than hostility. And being a friend is more influential than being an antagonist.

I appreciate your concern for my salvation. Please know the feelings are mutual.

Jon

 

[Departed_Light]

Jon - this is not about making friends and feeling all fuzzy wuzzy. I don’t need to be your friend, but I absolutely DO want you to get to heaven. My concern is for your soul, and for the souls of all those who feel that just because they don’t get the warm and happy hug that the Truth is not worth it.

I’m not insulting anyone’s faith communion - this is not a personal assault. I’m just saying that there are many many out there who will find any and every little excuse to keep them away from the Fullness of Truth. And the only way that can possibly end is if they just get over the pettiness and get right with God and His One True Faith.

~Liza

I can’t view the link, streaming video is blocked at my location.

JonNC has “Lutheran” indicated as his religious affiliation and you’re worried that he may not get to heaven because he’s not a self described Catholic? And this is the fullness of the Truth? I don’t buy into that at all.

I think it’s very possible to see the fruits of the Spirit in believers of all walks of life. Where the fruit of the Spirit is there must be an indwelling and a cultivation of that same Spirit within the individual no matter what label he wears or what label others want him to wear. And where the Spirit of Truth dwells, how can there be condemnation?

The Trinity is relational. God has worked with and through mankind in covenant relationships. Jesus called his closest flowers his friends and brothers. I do think there is lots of room to be friends within the various Christian communities. To throw that out due to a misplaced concern over someone’s soul is really missing the point of some of the deepest ideals within Christianity.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I think it’s very possible to see the fruits of the Spirit in believers of all walks of life.

The Catholic Church agrees with you. There are wounds to our unity and I don’t wish to down play these but Catholics and Lutherans are brothers and sisters in Christ.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

818 …All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.

Furthermore the Church recognizes that the Lutheran Church, and other non-Catholic Christian churches, are used as a means of salvation:

819…Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation…

As such I have no hesitation calling Jon or any other Lutheran a brother in Christ.

If you want to read what the entire Catechism says about it:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#I

God bless you

 

[LutheranDK]

This is awesome - I just love this priest, he really knows how to say it.

Shadow Priest

So - to those who are not Catholic, what do you think about this? Why do you think you can live just fine without the Catholic Church?

~Liza

A variation over the
“Jesus established the RC church, and we know that because that’s the way the Church interprets the Scriptures”-circular reasoning.

…nothing new under the sun.

 

[JonNC]

A variation over the
“Jesus established the RC church, and we know that because that’s the way the Church interprets the Scriptures”-circular reasoning.

…nothing new under the sun.

Hi, my Lutheran brother,
It is a thousand years old, this approach, and hasn’t worked to reconcile anyone yet. I don’t care if the Catholic Church believes this to be true. Obviously, you and I believe Lutheranism best teaches the truth, and Orthodox believe they do. But telling each other “you’re wrong, we’re right” doesn’t answer Christ’s call. It only perpetuates our divisions.

Time for a new approach!!
Jon

 

[lizaanne]

A variation over the
“Jesus established the RC church, and we know that because that’s the way the Church interprets the Scriptures”-circular reasoning.

…nothing new under the sun.

You are kidding, right? You do realize that it was the Catholic Church who wrote the NT and assembled the Bible, and that Luther didn’t even show on the scene until 1,500 years later. You do know this right? I’m not trying to be nasty, there are actually people out there who think Luther wrote the Bible.

But telling each other “you’re wrong, we’re right” doesn’t answer Christ’s call. It only perpetuates our divisions.

Time for a new approach!!
Jon

But there is, and can only be ONE truth. There can not be many truths. Answering Christ’s call is to follow what He tells us we must do, and this comes down to the (REAL) Eucharist, only found in the Catholic Church.

The new approach needs to be the putting aside of the issues Protestants have with the Truth and accepting the fact that “the church of man-made religion” is not where the fullness of that Truth lies.

~Liza

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

But there is, and can only be ONE truth.

I don’t believe Jon would deny that there is one Truth. Nor do I believe he would deny that there is only one Church. What Jon is suggesting is that the method we have been using (you’re wrong, we’re right) to prove that the one Church is the Catholic Church has left things to be desired. To put it mildly What I believe Jon is asking is that, if we believe he is wrong, not to be told he is wrong, but shown.

God bless you

 

[lizaanne]

I don’t believe Jon would deny that there is one Truth. Nor do I believe he would deny that there is only one Church. What Jon is suggesting is that the method we have been using (you’re wrong, we’re right) to prove that the one Church is the Catholic Church has left things to be desired. To put it mildly What I believe Jon is asking is that, if we believe he is wrong, not to be told he is wrong, but shown.

God bless you

How kind of you to speak for him!

The problem is that they are told, and told, and told, and told - and then when they are told again, they say we are being divisive. There comes a point where flat refusal to accept the Truth is nothing more than personal pride and arrogance. And I say again - get over it, and get right with God!

~Liza

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

How kind of you to speak for him!

I know how he feels, you should as well. How many times have you been told this or that is wrong about the Catholic faith by people who are not Catholic? So I guess in that regard I speak more for myself than for Jon. He just gave me a platform

God bless you Liza

 

[LutheranDK]

You are kidding, right? You do realize that it was the Catholic Church who wrote the NT and assembled the Bible, and that Luther didn’t even show on the scene until 1,500 years later. You do know this right? I’m not trying to be nasty, there are actually people out there who think Luther wrote the Bible.
~Liza

Nego maiorem!
The argument “The RC Church wrote the Bible” rests on the premise that it was the RC Church which Jesus established, which is (part of) what’s in dispute.
Luther did not write the Bible, and stop insulting me by insinuating that’s what I believe (although you’re “not trying to be nasty…” ) Unless you want “You worship Mary, therefore you are idolators” thrown back at you…

 

[LutheranDK]

How kind of you to speak for him!

The problem is that they are told, and told, and told, and told - and then when they are told again, they say we are being divisive. There comes a point where flat refusal to accept the Truth is nothing more than personal pride and arrogance. And I say again - get over it, and get right with God!

~Liza

“There comes a point where flat refusal to accept the Truth is nothing more than personal pride and arrogance. And I say again - get over it, and get right with God!”

And I say: Right back at ya!

Did you notice the word “SHOWN” in the reply?
That means not just being subjected to “You’re wrong, you’re wrong, you’re wrong”, or its variant “You’re wrong because the Church says so, You’re wrong because the Church says so, You’re wrong because the Church says so”, but instead goes something like this:

“I believe you’re wrong, and here are my reasons”, followed by clear, sound, reasonable (as in intelligable and logical) arguments, and **CONTEXTUAL ** use of Scripture.
I have met many people in these forums. Some good people, but a lot of arrogant (to put it mildly) people as well, but no one has yet been able to do the latter.

Can you?

And yes, that WAS a challenge…

PS: If you decide on taking it, please don’t waste my time with simple copy-pasting from whatever source you choose, and then say “There you have it!” That’s a double insult!

 

[klh24]

You know, these arguments are ridiculous. Why dont people look at the ultimate reality - God. God is so vast that He is not limited by an individual Church. God works with what you give Him, whether you are Catholic, Lutheran, Muslim, Jewish or pretty much any other religion. There are numerous reasons why people embrace different faiths. Your upbringing plays a role, as do your artistic tastes (e.g. chant vs. contemporary music) as do numerous other things. For me, it is a matter of rejoicing that someone has taken an honest look inside their heart and has chosen a faith or even no faith. I believe that most people are honest with themselves. Therefore most members of faith communities are there for a reason - they believe it to be the truth. To deny this is an insult. As for me? Well - I believe that absolute truth exists but it is so big and extensive that it cannot be imprisoned by creeds and dogmas.