Why do we pray to Saints?

[Brendan]

T.A.Stobie:

Please remember that most Catholics use pray to mean “communicate to” while many protestants use pray to mean “worship”.

While Catholics do communicate with the saints honoring them and asking for their intercession with God and help, we never worship them.

Yes, and most every one else to, including Websters

The verb ‘to pray’ means to entreat, to implore or to humbly request. It’s root is the Latin verb precari which means to implore.

You can even see it’s correct use in Shakespear

Hamlet Act I

Queen Gertrude to Hamlet

“I pray thee Hamlet, go not to Whittenburg”

She’s definitatly praying to Hamlet, but even a Protestant won’t say that Gertrude is worshipping Hamlet.

That’s what’s been lost in the modern Protestant mind, the true meaning of the verb. It has been replaced and somehow made into a synonym for “worship”.

At least Webster got it right

m-w.com/dictionary/pray

 

[Unexpected_Dawn]

Doh! Brendan, you beat me to it! Thanks! I guess this is repayment for all the times I told library patrons to “look it up” themselves.

How often we neglect our friend Webster!

 

[Ignatius]

hurst:

We do

The common understanding of the word pray in today’s vernacular is synonymous with latria, which is reserved for God alone, and is therefore emphatically not what we do.

 

[JimG]

Ignatius:

The common understanding of the word pray in today’s vernacular is synonymous with latria, which is reserved for God alone, and is therefore emphatically not what we do.

It’s not my common understanding, and never has been. And I don’t know many Catholics who equate prayer with worship. Rather, they equate prayer with communication.

It may be a common understanding among Protestants. If so, understanding the different usages of the term could go a long way toward better understanding of each other.

PS–I’m curious about something Daniel Marsh said. What does it mean to “agape” someone?

 

[Ignatius]

JimG:

It’s not my common understanding, and never has been.

It doesn’t have to do with “your” understanding. You may have a correct, or even perfect, understanding and still scandalize and drive away those seeking the Truth of the Catholic Church if you can’t communicate with them in their terms.

The usual meaning of the word pray in today’s vernacular is synonymous with latria, which is reserved for God alone, and is therefore emphatically not what we do.

 

[T.A.Stobie_SFO]

JimG:

PS–I’m curious about something Daniel Marsh said. What does it mean to “agape” someone?

I believe he is talking about to love someone like God does (agape form of love from the Greek).

 

[T.A.Stobie_SFO]

Ignatius:

The usual meaning of the word pray in today’s vernacular is synonymous with latria, which is reserved for God alone, and is therefore emphatically not what we do.

Actually pray gets it biggest use outside of religion in legal documents meaning to entreat used in the form

We, …, pray that the court grants …

 

[Brendan]

Ignatius:

The common understanding of the word pray in today’s vernacular is synonymous with latria, which is reserved for God alone, and is therefore emphatically not what we do.

Common to who??

If someone is confusing ‘pray’ with ‘latria’ then go ahead and correct them.

The word means ‘to ask’, not ‘to worship’, Webster’s knows it,

And precari still means to ask in Latin, so if I ‘precare *a Maria, Mater Eucharistica’ * is THAT latria? Or does the entire theology of the matter depend on the English defintion of the word?

 

[JimG]

I really think it may be more that the meaning of latria has been lost. It has the connotatation of complete, total, and willing submission to God, and complete adoration of Him as Creator by one of His creatures. Just speaking to God is not latria.

Perhaps the reason that people consider prayer as equal to worship is that they actually give God something less than true worship. If prayer is all He gets, then one naturally tends to consider prayer as worship, even while giving God something less than latria.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Go to any Protestant church and you will probably hear the minister ask the congregation to pray for someone who is sick or facing difficulties.

The minister is praying to the congregation! (“Pray” means “ask.”)

**And **he is praying them to intercede with God for the person who is sick or in difficulties!

That’s exactly what we do – although as believers in the Communion of Saints (the communion of all Christians, living and dead) we include those who, in Saint Paul’s words’ “have fallen asleep.”

 

[Sir_Knight]

The point of my question was that if Mary’s intercession is most effective and I have an hour to devote to prayer, wouldn’t it make sense to devote that hour of prayer asking for Mary’s intercession as opposed to praying to her for part of the hour and and devote the rest of the hour asking for the intercession of some other saints as well.

 

[hurst]

Sir Knight:

The point of my question was that if Mary’s intercession is most effective and I have an hour to devote to prayer, wouldn’t it make sense to devote that hour of prayer asking for Mary’s intercession as opposed to praying to her for part of the hour and and devote the rest of the hour asking for the intercession of some other saints as well.

I think the answer depends on your devotion and confidence in Mary, compared to your devotion and confidence in the other saints. I mean, it makes sense to ask who you are closer to.

In any case, we could certainly invite them to join with us in our petition to Mary.

hurst

 

[Runner1]

I strongly encourage devotion to St. Jude Thaddeus. He’s the patron of hopeless and desperate causes. I get very nervous and I do tend to panic so I’m glad to have St. Jude and Our Blessed Mother, and St. Therese of the Child Jesus and The Holy Face, and so many other friends helping me in my struggles.

 

[YinYangMom]

I kind of think of it as family.

Whenever I’m in need of emotional support I may turn to my mother first and foremost, but I also share my concerns with my brothers, sisters and friends.

Now it’s not like I expect every person I share my situation with to get me out of the situation. My mother might be able to help my father understand my situation so that he is more inclined to help me out, tangibly.

My brothers, sisters and friends are there for moral support while I’m wading through whatever it is I’m in. Some can help by keeping me distracted (shopping, dining out), others can help by listening, others by coming in to cook a meal or watch my kids or do my laundry so that I can have time to myself to reflect and pray or whatever.

Mary intercedes on our behalf.
The saints can too (haven’t your brothers or sisters ever appealed to your parents on your behalf, playing the numbers game, so to speak? “Dad may say no to you or mom, but he can’t say no to all of us together.”)
But the saints can also help you out in other ways to get through whatever trials you are enduring.

Another thing to consider:
As a godmother to a child, how would you feel if you found out from another source that your godchild was struggling with depression or lack of faith, or drugs and no one came to you to ask you for your support and prayers over the child?

As a confirmed Catholic you already have a couple of saints in your corner - the one whose name you took on at baptism and the one at confirmation. Then as you had children you expanded your list of saints when you named them. And let’s not forget our guardian angels…There are many souls in heaven who care very much about you and your family. I believe we honor them every time we acknowledge them - either with a ‘good morning’, a petition, or a ‘good night’. I would imagine it pleases them to be remembered and to be called upon to help.

 

[StCsDavid]

Sir Knight:

I’ve been explaining to non-Catholics why we pray to saints for years. Then it suddenly hit it – since Mary’s prayers before God are most powerful, why do we pray to the OTHER saints? Why not just pray to Mary for her intercession?

Personal example: My dog is under-going treatment for cancer and I was advised to pray to St Francis of Assisi, Blessed Anna-Maria Taigi, St Anthony of Padua, etc.; and my family was doing that in addition to saying the rosary when it suddenly hit us – if Mary’s prayers are most effectively before the throne of God, wouldn’t it make sense to direct our petitions to her? And if that is the case, then why do we pray to the other saints?

I wish I had a stronger relationship with Mary, but unfotunately, that part of my faith hasn’t fully developed yet. Most likely because of my childhood, I don’t really have a point of reference on what a Mother/Son relationship is supposed to be like. I love Mary as best I can, but that bond that so many have just isn’t there, yet. Maybe someday. So for me, St. Anthony is my brother in Christ who prays for me, and I truly believe whops me upside the head when I start to go wrong…or maybe he asks my guardian angel to give me a good thump.

 

[Ignatius]

Brendan:

If someone is confusing ‘pray’ with ‘latria’ then go ahead and correct them.

The word means ‘to ask’, not ‘to worship’,

Let me restate what I said previously. It does not have to do with your understanding. You may have a correct, or even a perfect, understanding and still scandalize and drive away those seeking the Truth of the Catholic Church if you can’t communicate with them in their terms. We must meet them where they are.

 

[hurst]

Ignatius:

You may have a correct, or even a perfect, understanding and still scandalize and drive away those seeking the Truth of the Catholic Church if you can’t communicate with them in their terms.

Sometimes you have to allow them to be scandalized, especially when you are introducing a new concept that they have no vocabulary for. Case in point is Jesus telling them they must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood to have life. Faith goes beyond what we understand on our own terms.

Ignatius:

We must meet them where they are.

This is definitely true. But we must draw them out from there. So while we realize they think “pray” means worship, and that “worship” is restricted to God, we can thus be sensitive to the need to bridge this gap of misunderstanding by sharing the Catholic understanding of the distinction between prayer and worship and latria etc.

But to accept their terms as final, and say “we don’t worship saints” or “we don’t pray to saints” is dishonest. We should at least also say “the way you think we do”. They need to realize there is a broader understanding of those terms.

But not only that, you do them a disservice if you have the opportunity to lead them out of error and don’t. For the fact is, they generally have no concept of true worship of God. How can they when they have no sacrifice of the Mass to offer? Their concept of God is faulty because they do not recognize the Creator’s work of having given us the duty of being secondary causes in this world and thus subject to praise or reproach. For we not only pray directly to saints, but we also praise them directly and honor them directly and petition them directly - as secondary causes created by God to have a real effect in the world. We do the same to God, except with the addition of adoration and as the Primary Cause of all. To not pray to saints would be to deny God’s work and weaken our relationship with Him.

Thus, we should not be agreeing with our erring brethren simply to avoid “scandalizing” them. It is they who are the scandal to the Faith on this point. More specifically, they are a scandal to Charity, on account of dividing the Body of Christ both visibly on earth and invisibly in the Communion of Saints. If they are truly sincere, then they would not be offended to be instructed in this matter, even if they don’t understand.

hurst

 

[imroc]

It is reassuring that God hears our prayers. “The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much” (James 5:16).

God listens to the righteous.
The Psalmist wrote: “Come and hear, all you who fear God, and I will declare what He has done for my soul. I cried to Him with my mouth, and He was extolled with my tongue. If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear. But certainly God has heard *me; *He has attended to the voice of my prayer. Blessed be God, who has not turned away my prayer, nor His mercy from me!” (Psalm 66:16-20).

Quoted from a web page:

oldpaths.com/Archive/Davison/Roy/Allen/1940/prayer.html

I’m not sure what this web site stands for or what it’s belief is, but I thought it was helpful in the above quote!

 

[LilyM]

Ignatius:

Let me restate what I said previously. It does not have to do with your understanding. You may have a correct, or even a perfect, understanding and still scandalize and drive away those seeking the Truth of the Catholic Church if you can’t communicate with them in their terms. We must meet them where they are.

There’s a difference between

a) saying (as I do to my Protestant friends all the time) ‘you have a different understanding of ‘worship’ than we do’ or ‘you have a different understanding of ‘mediator’ than we do’ and explaining the differences and

b) refusing to use the terms at all because you know they aren’t understood in the same way.

If you’re talking to an even marginally intelligent person then they can accept that such words are used in varying ways. I don’t think washing over the differences in terminology or use of terms does anyone any favours, because the fact is they ARE used in different ways - better get the differences sorted out in the beginning.