Why Do We Primarily Attend Mass?

[ethelzguy]

What does that have to do with anything? There have been false churches – i.e. heretical “churches” – since the birth of the one true Church.

What I’m saying is, that with scads of churches out there, all preaching that THEIR church is the one true way to Salvation, how would having priests thundering the same statements from the pulpits change anything? They would sound the same as all the other pulpit thunder.

And, wouldn’t such thunder be in conflict with the ecumenism spoken of by recent Popes?

 

[Our_Refuge]

=ethelzguy;3842205]Catholics do not live in a bubble. We live in the real world. The rogue tradtionalist crowd likes to insist that the Church went down the toilet after Vatican II, while others can see that sticking the Church’s head in the sand regarding what goes on around it would have been folley.

Sorry but I’m not sure if I understand your post. Yes we live in the real world. But the world should conform to the Church, right?
I do not believe that the Church ‘went down the toilet’ but teaching the faith has been severely lacking. The vast majority of Catholics do no know what the Church teaches.

The truth is, neither side will ever REALLY know, now, will they?

Know what?

Many churches preach that THEY are the only path to Salvation now, don’t they?

But only one can be right. Your point is…?

 

[ethelzguy]

Know what?

Whether the results of Vatican II harmed or helped the Church. We can debate it forever, but we’ll never really know for sure.

But only one can be right. Your point is…?

I think I answered that in post 40

 

[japhy]

What I’m saying is, that with scads of churches out there, all preaching that THEIR church is the one true way to Salvation, how would having priests thundering the same statements from the pulpits change anything? They would sound the same as all the other pulpit thunder.

Other Christian pastors preach against sin. Should Catholic priests avoid doing so? When the Mass “sounds the same” as a Protestant service, something is DREADFULLY wrong.

And, wouldn’t such thunder be in conflict with the ecumenism spoken of by recent Popes?

Not if you understand the ecumenism spoken of by recent Popes. The only real churches in the world are those with apostolic succession (and valid holy orders) and the Eucharist. Most Christian denominations aren’t “churches”.

And while there are elements of the true Church and of the true faith (those are the one Church Jesus established on Peter and the Catholic faith) in various denominations of Christianity, which can be means of grace, they belong by nature to the Catholic Church and are ordered unto Her. Meaning, the elements of the Church that are found in (for example) Baptist congregations are not meant to be self-sufficient, but are meant to lead those Baptists to the Catholic Church.

Ecumenism is not about talking about differences, coming to grips with them, and signing a document with a smile and a handshake. It’s about coming home to the Catholic Church. It’s about unity of faith in a diversity of Rites (not sects or denominations, but Rites) under the Bishop of Rome. It’s about conversion to the true Catholic faith.

Or… how do you understand ecumenism?

 

[ethelzguy]

Other Christian pastors preach against sin. Should Catholic priests avoid doing so? When the Mass “sounds the same” as a Protestant service, something is DREADFULLY wrong.

Japhy,

I am not saying that our priests should not preach on sin or the Catholic Church as the path to Salvation.

My post was in response to the claim that a lack thereof was a cause of Church downfall, and that more thereof would have stopped/corrected this.

We can’t know this to be true.

To preach on sin and the Church is, in essence saying the same things that other preachers are saying as well. How would doing the same thing that they are doing put us on a higher plane than they? It just makes us the same as them (perhaps not in OUR minds) but likely in theirs.

And yes, I am fully aware of our views on ecumenism. However it has been said that honey attracts more flies than vinegar.

 

[japhy]

My post was in response to the claim that a lack thereof was a cause of Church downfall, and that more thereof would have stopped/corrected this. We can’t know this to be true.

Well, is it too late to try it now? It might very well be coincidence that as the qualities of homilies degraded there just also happened to be a weakening of the Catholic faith in Her members. Or it could be correlative.

To preach on sin and the Church is, in essence saying the same things that other preachers are saying as well. How would doing the same thing that they are doing put us on a higher plane than they?

It’s not happening much in the Church, from what I hear. And whatever place it’s preached from, if the message is taken seriously, that place would likely accrue new members (and the existing members would clean up their acts). So if the place preaching it is, in fact, the true Church of Jesus Christ, that’s the best place possible to preach it from.

What good is it to have priests (or worse, laypeople) preaching at Mass in a way that leads to complacency about the Catholic faith?

And yes, I am fully aware of our views on ecumenism. However it has been said that honey attracts more flies than vinegar.

It’d better be genuine honey; that is, building upon the seeds of the Gospel and the Catholic faith that exist in that person’s denomination and life, and working to remove that which is heterodox. Not just agreeing to disagree; not settling for a lowest common denominator. None of this “I’m ok, you’re ok” claptrap, the likes of which Scott Hahn received from a Catholic priest prior to his conversion to the Catholic faith:
One of them actually said, “Are you thinking of converting? No, you don’t want to do that. Ever since Vatican II we discourage that. The best thing you can do for the Church is just be a good Presbyterian minister.” I said, “Wait a second, Father…” “No, just call me Mike.” I said, “OK, Mike. I’m not asking you to break my arm and force me in. I think God is calling me.” He said, “Well, if you want help from me, you’ve come to the wrong man.”

 

[Our_Refuge]

=ethelzguy;3842363]What I’m saying is, that with scads of churches out there,** all preaching that THEIR church is the one true way to Salvation, **how would having priests thundering the same statements from the pulpits change anything? They would sound the same as all the other pulpit thunder

.
From the pulpit priests need to teach the faith. Forget all of these feel good homilies. The difference in “THEIR” church and ours is simple. Our faith is true, theirs is false. It needs to be pointed out without ambiguity.
I would be willing to bet that 75% of those at Church on Sunday know nothing about the true significance of “thou art Peter…”
If you were to ask Catholics " is the bible or the Church the pillar and foundation of truth" they would answer " the bible".

And, wouldn’t such thunder be in conflict with the ecumenism spoken of by recent Popes

How does ecumenism come to play. The audience at Mass is Catholic. We need to be taught the faith so that we can understand the need for true ecumenism of the return.

 

[japhy]

How does ecumenism come to play. The audience at Mass is Catholic. We need to be taught the faith so that we can understand the need for true ecumenism of the return.

Not always: non-Catholics attend Mass often, sometimes out of curiosity, sometimes because they are invited, etc. How sad it is when a non-Catholic attends a Mass at which a homily is given that equates membership in the Catholic Church with membership in any of the thousands of Protestants communions.

 

[palmas85]

What I’m saying is, that with scads of churches out there, all preaching that THEIR church is the one true way to Salvation, how would having priests thundering the same statements from the pulpits change anything? They would sound the same as all the other pulpit thunder.

And, wouldn’t such thunder be in conflict with the ecumenism spoken of by recent Popes?

I certainly hope that you are not implying that the Catholic Church is equivalent to the Tabernacle of the Most High Roaring Lion of Judea Evangelical Apostleship Fubdamentalist Church or the same as any of the other myriad of protestant communities floating around out there.

They can peach error all they want and they do. Error has been around since the beginning of the Church. Anyone who has taken the time to study knows that very well. Error and heresies almost wrecked Christianity until the Catholic Church pulled things together, They didn’t pull things together by preaching that all religions were equal and that all had value and that all could save,

No they taught that the Catholic Church was the one true Church. They were not afraid to tell the truth for fear of offending someone, They were not afraid to attack heresy in all of its forms, no matter how bright and pretty a picture thay painted of themselves. They stood for the truth and accepted no less.

And now what do we see? Heresies once condemned by the Church openly practiced and adhered to by millions. They are all back. Liberal Christianity has resurrected them and sold them to the people, who not having the Church stand up and say you’re wrong, think that they are all right in believing that Christ was just a good man or the Virgin Birth is a myth or the Holy Trinity doesn’t really exist or that we are all Gods or there is no God or that salvation comes not from the sacrifice of Christ but in the ethical upbringing of society, etc etc ad nauseum.

The problem is as I see it, somewhere along the road we got sidetracked. We lost sight of what the truth is. We became infected by the ills of relativistic thought and theories. Ecumenism, acceptance and being non confrontational at all costs, became our driving force, not a bad thing, if it is true ecumenism and not the watered down close to heretical thing that we call ecumenism where no matter what anyone believes it is all right, acceptable and pleasing to God. I wasn’t taught that, and I really don’t think the Church teaches it today either. But plenty in the Church, laity and clergy alike, believe it…

The Catholic Church needs to once again stand for truth, publically, as the Holy Father has tried to do on several occasions… Remember the public outcry, the indignation that swelled up when he stated that the protestant communities were not true churches?? Both from within and outside the Church? What did the naysayers say, the Church is sticking its head back into the sane. Modern man cannot accept such bigoted thoughts, etc etc. But it was the truth, and in the end, a great many religious leaders, protestants Jews and others dedlared that while they didn’t accept the statement thay could certainly undersatnd and appeciate it because it showed one thing above al else.

The Holy Father deeply believes in Catholic theology and thought and genuinely believes his statement to be true. They could accept that. And more than that, they respected the Holy Father greatly for what he said and for having the courage to stand up and say what would surely bring criticism upon him. For the truth, unlike what the relativists say is not relative to each person group or time frame. The truth is the truth. The Church, sad to say since Vatican II, has taken very little action to stop the spread of the error that recognizes the truth as being relative.

I have included and interesting link on that subject.
jewishpress.com/displayContent_new.cfm?mode=a&sectionid=56&contentid=22275&contentname=The%20Pope’s20%Got%20A%20Point

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed. Thank you all.