Why do we rarely hear hymns such as these, and can anything be done about it?

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At my parish - the music director, choir and any one interested in music decide on the music that is prayed during the Mass …

Some people just don’t sing - ever … 🤷

Some people only prefer the music they know, remember or are nostalgic for … even if they don’t sing … 🤷

Some people only like certain types of music … 🤷

Some people just do not like certain types of music … 🤷

Some complain the music is too high … or too low … too fast … too slow :rolleyes:

My parish has over 2000 families … at any given Mass [there are 5 each weekend - each Mass slightly different in regards to musc] you will probably get 100 different opinions of the music [good to bad] and 100 blank stares and 100 people to busy / distracted to care either way …

My suggestion to those who don’t think their parish’s music is going in the correct direction -
Volunteer to sing at your parish - get involved … After you have established yourself as a member of the music ministry - and you see how the process works in your parish, Earned some credibility for your skills and participation - Then - if you see a need for change - work towards that end … 👍 … Be involved …

If you merely want to complain and be unhappy - continue in your current path - because its working for you 😉

Vigil and Sunday 9:00am similar - small group - cantor
Sunday 7:30am little singing - cantor only
Sunday 11:00am - full choir
Sunday 6:00 PM - small group - Teen Mass - entirely different music selections from the other Masses of the weekend
 
liturgyluver said:
I have two observations to make. The first is that the hymns in the OP would not be at all unusual in an English parish as opposed to an American one. I used to post in the music list thread and noticed a significant divergence between the two.

The second is that almost all of the beautful hymns in the OP were penned by Anglicans not Catholics, and some parishes still have a lingering resistance to using non-catholic music in the liturgy. The problem with this is that traditional Catholic hymns for the mass does not exist as hymns were not sung at until relatively recently. The unintended consequence of this, therefore, is that those parishes that resist incorporation of the vast treasure of Amglican and Methodist hymnody will be those that sound less traditional, relient as they are on modern material which ironically their congregations wrongly identify as “protestant” when the truth is that most of the banal material familiar to Catholics would never see the light of day in a traditional protestant church!
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Yes, I would say Americans are very divided when it comes to hymns. Not to mention language as well. 🙂
 
liturgyluver said:
I have two observations to make. The first is that the hymns in the OP would not be at all unusual in an English parish as opposed to an American one. I used to post in the music list thread and noticed a significant divergence between the two.
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Thanks for the info! Here in Australia these hymns can be heard in some Cathedrals (including Adelaide), and a small number of parishes. Moreover, some parishes which once sang some of them (eg. Firmly I Believe and Truly) have stopped.
liturgyluver said:
The second is that almost all of the beautful hymns in the OP were penned by Anglicans not Catholics, and some parishes still have a lingering resistance to using non-catholic music in the liturgy. The problem with this is that traditional Catholic hymns for the mass does not exist as hymns were not sung at until relatively recently. The unintended consequence of this, therefore, is that those parishes that resist incorporation of the vast treasure of Amglican and Methodist hymnody will be those that sound less traditional, relient as they are on modern material which ironically their congregations wrongly identify as “protestant” when the truth is that most of the banal material familiar to Catholics would never see the light of day in a traditional protestant church!
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I recall that in a hymn thread a while ago someone posted that pre-Vatican II the priest would often lead their parish in an* a capella* hymn, and that the congregation knew a good selection of hymns (presumably from school).

I have also heard that some older Catholics rejected Protestant music in the past. This makes makes sense for, say, Allelulia, Sing to Jesus, but I’m still confused as to why some of the traditional Catholic hymns which I heard in the 80’s (Soul of My Saviour, Firmly I Believe and Truly) have been banished. I hear them in our Cathedral, but never in a parish. Come Down Oh Love Divine and Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence are based on Catholic sources, even though they were written by Protestants, and are more deserving of place in Catholic liturgy than most modern music.

Our organist will play the music for some of these hymns before Mass, and during the offertory or communion. And yet we never sing them!
 
Edmundus1581 said:
Come Down Oh Love Divine and Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence are based on Catholic sources, even though they were written by Protestants, and are more deserving of place in Catholic liturgy than most modern music.
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The same can be said for JS Bach’s Mass in B Minor. But I have yet to hear a Mass which used or uses it.
 
YADA said:
Some people just don’t sing - ever … 🤷

Some people only prefer the music they know, remember or are nostalgic for … even if they don’t sing … 🤷

Some people only like certain types of music … 🤷

Some people just do not like certain types of music … 🤷

Some complain the music is too high … or too low … too fast … too slow :rolleyes:
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👍 Great observations

.
 
ProVobis said:
The same can be said for JS Bach’s Mass in B Minor. But I have yet to hear a Mass which used or uses it.
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Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence only requires an organ and could be introduced with just a decision from the music director. Instead of introducing a modern hymn over several weeks, as we do sometimes, how about we introduce a traditional hymn?

OTOH, the B Minor Mass would require a small orchestra, a larger choir, and professional soloists. 🙂

And, no, I am not going to suggest this (Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence) to the music director. As I’ve previously said, at only age 54, with twenty years in the parish, 10 years of work in the liturgy and choir (and a bit of everything else) I don’t have the seniority for such suggestions. But I have been around long enough to see how it works, and doesn’t work.

If my parish’s liturgists listened to suggestions we wouldn’t be here now. They decided long ago to block out feedback. Of course, they don’t have to respond to every “I want” from the congregation, but I’ve seen the inside stories on some of the serious ones. For a start, our choir sings too loud, and dominates the music rather than leads it. This has been commented on several times, and is ignored. For next… I could think of a few “next” serious suggestions which have been rejected out of hand, or get the old “That’s a good idea, we’ll think about it…”.

I am so encouraged by the information that many young Catholics are more receptive to traditional music than older Catholics are. This gives me some hope for the long term.

To me, it’s not just about “traditional” music. It’s about good music and good words. If the foundation of our liturgy is traditional music, from approved hymnals, then we have some sense of quality, and some foundation for the congregational singing. We can then introduce different hymns, slowly, and bring the parish with us. But if our foundation is modern songs, which may be nice but don’t stand up to the best of the traditional, then there’s nowhere to go. In this scenario Let All Mortal Flesh keep Silence does clang! I can think of some diet ananologies…
 
Hi Edmundus,
Sometimes I think that priests / music directors think that they are in some imaginary “coolness” competition, and if their parish is not “cool” enough, the parishioners and their envelopes will evaporate to some other more groovy parish. That’s why they chase after Haugen, Haas, allow bongos, electric guitar, etc. That’s the only way I can explain it in my own mind.
It makes no sense to me either, unless they are trying to undermine traditional Catholicism. Which I’m sure they’re not. :rolleyes:
 
27lw said:
Hi Edmundus,
Sometimes I think that priests / music directors think that they are in some imaginary “coolness” competition, and if their parish is not “cool” enough, the parishioners and their envelopes will evaporate to some other more groovy parish. That’s why they chase after Haugen, Haas, allow bongos, electric guitar, etc. That’s the only way I can explain it in my own mind.
It makes no sense to me either, unless they are trying to undermine traditional Catholicism. Which I’m sure they’re not. :rolleyes:
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And sometimes there is nobody to play piano or organ and a few of those who want to have a parish choir can strum a guitar so that’s what you make do with. When those few people also came of age in the early 70s, they tend to bring their nostalgia for the music of their teenaged years with them. They grew up with the first couple of thin volumes of Glory and Praise so we have to suffer.

As much as I don’t care for Haugen, I’ll gladly take some of his compositions if it means I never have to hear another Carey Landry song.
 
Phemie said:
And sometimes there is nobody to play piano or organ and a few of those who want to have a parish choir can strum a guitar so that’s what you make do with. When those few people also came of age in the early 70s, they tend to bring their nostalgia for the music of their teenaged years with them. They grew up with the first couple of thin volumes of Glory and Praise so we have to suffer.

As much as I don’t care for Haugen, I’ll gladly take some of his compositions if it means I never have to hear another Carey Landry song.
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:rotfl:

For what it’s worth…for each of us that have certain styles and songs we loathe…there are 50 people who “love” them. Srsly. I kid you not.
Some of the most awful stuff is beloved of people who only remember those songs, as you allude to.

“I Believe in the Sun, even when it isn’t shining…”

uh. yeah. okaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

:p:p:p
 
Since recently coming to the Catholic Church and being confirmed late in life (48) I have be wowed by the beautiful music especially the traditional hymns , I also stand in as organist and feel privileged to play from a wide repertoire including plain chant but we also mix some lovely contemporary music. The music book we use contains all the traditional standards and is titled Liturgical Hymns Old & New published by Kevinmayhew.com It also has complete mass compilations for all sections of the liturgy. The musicians/choir book is over a 1000 pages and includes as previous poster said suggestions for different times of the year/ different types of services, the congregation get a pared down version of the book which contains the lyrics only.

I went to an ecumenical service the other day and although they started with a couple of traditional ones all the rest were a happy clappy contemporary sounding a bit like pop music not my cup of tea though the lyrics were fine, I am I guess a bit conservative in my musical tastes
 
There are some really beautiful Catholic hymns but I rarely hear them either. Christmas season had beautiful hymns. I attended all the masses I could then because it was so beautiful to hear and sing those hymns.

But the rest of year, not so great. In fact, its pretty bad really. :ouch: Its the only thing I miss about the Pentecostal church I used to go to. We had such great music. It just filled you up! :extrahappy: I realize its an entirely different style but it sure had a great effect on us. Music is sooo very important and I hate to say it but the Catholic church music is the only thing that disappointed me. Kinda wish something like happened in that movie Sister Act would happen to liven them up a bit. 😃

My home parish plays Gregorian music and other beautiful music before mass starts and that makes up for when the choir brings out the choir book and starts the routine hymns.
 
As a teenage musician who loves the traditional hymns I find this conversation quite interesting. 🙂

What are some hymns that are easy to sing and can be used during Ordinary Time? I am trying to keep away from the ones that use the “wrong person context” (i.e., "I, the Lord of sea and sky, etc) 😛
 
Hi again Edmundus,

I am sorry that I didn’t realize that you were already in choir. Somehow I missed that. That is really too bad, regarding the music.

I would have hoped that your Music Director would be open to hearing from the choir members about what types of hymns that they would like to sing.

I guess that I was lucky then, with our Music Director. She was new to our parish and she was open to ideas and suggestions, and she brought new ideas to us, too. I had a really fun time while I was in choir.

The only reason that I stopped being in choir was that I was taking care of a relative and it began to take up more and more of my time, so that became my focus then, back at the time.
 
Edmundus1581 said:
In the Music Leader Thread one parish’s hymn list for yesterday was:


  1. ]Entrance: Alleluia! Sing to Jesus
    ]Offertory: What Wondrous Love Is This?
    ]Communion 1: Veni, Jesu, Amor Mi
    ]Communion 2:     Come Down, O Love Divine
    *]Communion 3: O God of Loveliness
    *]Closing: Crown Him With Many Crowns

    snip
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  1. I don’t know the three Communion hymns, but two of the three others are actually of Protestant origin, not that this is necessarily a Bad Thing.

    The original stanzas of “Crown Him” were written by a former Anglican who followed Newman into the Catholic Church, and he wrote the hymn about 3 years after his conversion. Later an Anglican got upset that so many Protestants were singing a hymn with Catholic theology, so he wrote six stanzas that were more reflective of Anglican theology. The various versions in modern hymnals are mixtures.

    sharefaith.com/guide/Christian-Music/hymns-the-songs-and-the-stories/crown-him-with-many-crowns-the-song-and-the-story.html

    “Wondrous Love” is an anonymously written American “white spiritual” written in the early 19th century. It first appeared with music in Southern Harmony in the 1830s or '40s (the precise edition is in dispute). That version had the melody and two lines of harmony (bass and treble), so when it was adapted for Sacred Harp use, my great-grandfather, Seaborn M. Denson, wrote the alto line. The harmonization sounds very strange to those of us who are used to I-IV-V-I harmonies, but the haunting sound has prompted its use in many different settings and arrangements.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Wondrous_Love_Is_This

    “Alleluia! Sing to Jesus!” was written by William Chatterton Dix, an Anglican (as far as I can tell) and was first published in 1866. It is usually set to “Hyfrydol,” a very popular hymn tune to which a number of other hymns are sung.

    hymnary.org/text/alleluia_sing_to_jesus_his_the_scepter

    (In case no one noticed, I love hymnology 😃 )
 
DaveBj said:
I don’t know the three Communion hymns, but two of the three others are actually of Protestant origin, not that this is necessarily a Bad Thing.

The original stanzas of “Crown Him” were written by a former Anglican who followed Newman into the Catholic Church, and he wrote the hymn about 3 years after his conversion. Later an Anglican got upset that so many Protestants were singing a hymn with Catholic theology, so he wrote six stanzas that were more reflective of Anglican theology. The various versions in modern hymnals are mixtures.

sharefaith.com/guide/Christian-Music/hymns-the-songs-and-the-stories/crown-him-with-many-crowns-the-song-and-the-story.html

“Wondrous Love” is an anonymously written American “white spiritual” written in the early 19th century. It first appeared with music in Southern Harmony in the 1830s or '40s (the precise edition is in dispute). That version had the melody and two lines of harmony (bass and treble), so when it was adapted for Sacred Harp use, my great-grandfather, Seaborn M. Denson, wrote the alto line. The harmonization sounds very strange to those of us who are used to I-IV-V-I harmonies, but the haunting sound has prompted its use in many different settings and arrangements.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Wondrous_Love_Is_This

“Alleluia! Sing to Jesus!” was written by William Chatterton Dix, an Anglican (as far as I can tell) and was first published in 1866. It is usually set to “Hyfrydol,” a very popular hymn tune to which a number of other hymns are sung.

hymnary.org/text/alleluia_sing_to_jesus_his_the_scepter

(In case no one noticed, I love hymnology 😃 )
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I love the history of hymnody too. You are right that William Chatterton Dix was an Anglican. As were Richard Littledale and Ralph Vaughan Williams who wrote the words and music to the truly wonderful Come Down, O Divine youtube.com/watch?v=6HPKL1wOVXk
 
I don’t feel too bad with the list. In the OP, I use four in the first list and six in the second. That’s not bad since I use a limited number of songs (between 100 and 150). I will not use unfamiliar material.

I love the old hymns. They are my favorites. However, even the ever prolific Haugen, Haas and Schutte each have at least one song I like and use a lot, though I think they over-compose, meaning, for the sake of being a staff composer, too much mediocre music is used in hymnals. At least the past greats, like the Protestant Fanny Crosby were prolific for their talent, not for the sake of a contract.
 
I was just listening to a version of the creed by Bach. It is so beautiful.
 
Come Down O Love Divine has a lovely tune, and I’m sure that Bianco da Sena wrote the original words in a place of deep spiritual yearning, but I cannot think that weeping with self-loathing is, in fact, “true lowliness of heart”. I think it is a dangerous hymn to include in the general repertoire, as someone who has spent some years genuinely weeping from self-loathing.

But that’s really where most of us are coming from, isn’t it? We know that the hymns chosen matter, because people remember the words and take them to heart, as well as using them to worship God. Hymns are one of the main sources of catechesis for a lot of people, as sad as that might seem. This means that we have to be very careful that they contain accurate teaching, in a way that can be understood by most of the parish at least after repeated use, and include some more ‘meaty’ offerings in the mix.

And of course we also need to make sure the hymns are dignified, singable, and suited to worship, but that isn’t the only concern. When you’re also trying to match the liturgical calendar, and the place in the Mass, on top of everything else, it gets complicated. We all have our own preferences and tastes as well (my choir master got told off for including too much Wesley!), and I always have to catch myself from judging hymns that are not in my preferred style. Sometimes they win me over: “Christ be our light” actually had me choked up last week, although it annoyed me a lot when first introduced to our parish.
 
QNDNNDQDCE said:
Yeah, it’s great. Just not during mass…

youtu.be/ax8ea4KL5-0
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As I understand it, a Catholic prince specifically employed JS Bach to compose pieces that would be played at Mass. This Credo is only one of them. Quite appropriate for special occasions such as Christmas or Easter if not more regularly IMO. There is no reason why one can’t join in at least with lip singing.
 
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