Why do we rarely hear hymns such as these, and can anything be done about it?

[QNDNNDQDCE]

The Bach Credo is very long and showy. It is stupendous music, but I don’t think it is desirable to turn the mass into a concert hall, where the music overshadows the sacrifice of the mass. I also doubt most Catholics would be able to stand it if the mass were over three hours.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Thanks everyone for the ongoing discussion, and for the information about the origins of hymns.

I am so happy for those parishes where there is traditional music, or a mixture of the traditional and modern. It can be done!

I have been reading and thinking about this.

One thing I’ve noticed is that no-one is saying “I love the new hymns”. It’s as if we put up with, or welcome them as a change, but could do without them.

I asked this question because it is not just about my own parish. I have observed the removal of traditional hymns from a majority of parishes in Australia (assuming that my random sample of city and country parishes is representative). Traditional hymns come in a couple of styles, which I’ll classify as “high” and “popular”. “High” hymns, such as Godhead Here in Hiding will probably never be heard much in Catholic parishes, but what has caused me such distress is the the “popular” hymns, such as Soul of My Saviour and Breath on Me Breath of God have also been banished, to make way for music which is “nice” at best, but never inspiring, and never containing strong Catholic theology.

As a teenage musician who loves the traditional hymns I find this conversation quite interesting.

That’s some of the good news I’ve got from this!

What are some hymns that are easy to sing and can be used during Ordinary Time? I am trying to keep away from the ones that use the “wrong person context” (i.e., "I, the Lord of sea and sky, etc)

Check the Music Leaders thread I referenced in my OP.

Come Down O Love Divine has a lovely tune, and I’m sure that Bianco da Sena wrote the original words in a place of deep spiritual yearning, but I cannot think that weeping with self-loathing is, in fact, “true lowliness of heart”. I think it is a dangerous hymn to include in the general repertoire, as someone who has spent some years genuinely weeping from self-loathing.

A fascinating personal story! I’ve never had trouble with “O’er it’s own shortcomings weeps with loathing” - but then I have never literally wept like that! If I may direct this thought to our topic, there is no modern jingle which ever brings me to tears, or even causes a lump in my throat. Or has words which I think about outside Mass.

**Hymns are one of the main sources of catechesis for a lot of people, as sad as that might seem. This means that we have to be very careful that they contain accurate teaching, in a way that can be understood by most of the parish at least after repeated use, and include some more ‘meaty’ offerings in the mix. **

That is such an important point. Music has a deep impact (“He who sings, prays twice”, etc…) and the theology in good hymns stays with us. Also, remembering that “the media is the message”, how we sing and raise our voices to God is theology in itself.

Returning to the topic of how this came about, thanks for these insights (and apologies for any I’ve missed)

And sometimes there is nobody to play piano or organ and a few of those who want to have a parish choir can strum a guitar so that’s what you make do with. **When those few people also came of age in the early 70s, they tend to bring their nostalgia for the music of their teenaged years with them. They grew up with the first couple of thin volumes of Glory and Praise so we have to suffer. **

**Sometimes I think that priests / music directors think that they are in some imaginary “coolness” competition, and if their parish is not “cool” enough, the parishioners and their envelopes will evaporate to some other more groovy parish. **That’s why they chase after Haugen, Haas, allow bongos, electric guitar, etc. That’s the only way I can explain it in my own mind.
It makes no sense to me either, unless they are trying to undermine traditional Catholicism. Which I’m sure they’re not.

(ditto… I’m sure they wouldn’t be doing that…)

As some us have observed, the resistance to traditional music seems to be strongest in the over 50’s.

There’s also the practical impact of organs being expensive and organists being rare, while guitars are cheap and guitarists are plentiful.

And then, on to what can be done about it…

I think there is little chance of directly changing the mind of a musical director who has a contempt for traditional music. I also suspect that there’s little point in “bargaining” to have a traditional hymn included from time to time. If they don’t want it, they will undermine it.

I note particularly that the parish (with good music) which prompted this thread was once without music, and then the priest steered the development of the music in the parish. This suggests to me that a “clean start” in the best way. If there is a Mass without music, then start a traditional choir for that Mass. Get the backing of your priest, if possible.

I would also like to use whatever influence I have in my parish to see that our organist is paid and to foster the learning of organ amongst our youth.

It is very important to support the music that is there! I sing with every hymn regardless of my feelings about it, and I keep singing in my choir. If ever there is a chance to influence the direction of music in my parish, then I will be in the front.

Finally, being musically qualified has immense power! Naturally, those who are able to sing, play instruments and conduct choirs have the most influence (if not total control!).

Thanks again to all, including those I have not mentioned directly!

~ Edmundus

 

[Edmundus1581]

Hi again Edmundus,

I am sorry that I didn’t realize that you were already in choir. Somehow I missed that. That is really too bad, regarding the music.
…
I guess that I was lucky then, with our Music Director. She was new to our parish and she was open to ideas and suggestions, and she brought new ideas to us, too. I had a really fun time while I was in choir.

Not a problem.

If that worked for you, then I can understand why you would encourage others to do the same! Well done, and I’m glad that you had a fun time in your choir.

“I Believe in the Sun, even when it isn’t shining…”

We’ve introduced that recently. . It must be trending in Catholic parishes.

It’s not that awful, but, puhleease… can we have this, and it’s like, as a variation, and not the main fare?

How about, for every modern hymn we introduce we also introduce, or bring back, a traditional hymn?

 

[pianistclare]

Thanks everyone for the ongoing discussion, and for the information about the origins of hymns.

I am so happy for those parishes where there is traditional music, or a mixture of the traditional and modern. It can be done!

I have been reading and thinking about this.

One thing I’ve noticed is that no-one is saying “I love the new hymns”. It’s as if we put up with, or welcome them as a change, but could do without them.

I asked this question because it is not just about my own parish. I have observed the removal of traditional hymns from a majority of parishes in Australia (assuming that my random sample of city and country parishes is representative). Traditional hymns come in a couple of styles, which I’ll classify as “high” and “popular”. “High” hymns, such as Godhead Here in Hiding will probably never be heard much in Catholic parishes, but what has caused me such distress is the the “popular” hymns, such as Soul of My Saviour and Breath on Me Breath of God have also been banished, to make way for music which is “nice” at best, but never inspiring, and never containing strong Catholic theology.

That’s some of the good news I’ve got from this!

Check the Music Leaders thread I referenced in my OP.

A fascinating personal story! I’ve never had trouble with “O’er it’s own shortcomings weeps with loathing” - but then I have never literally wept like that! If I may direct this thought to our topic, there is no modern jingle which ever brings me to tears, or even causes a lump in my throat. Or has words which I think about outside Mass.

That is such an important point. Music has a deep impact (“He who sings, prays twice”, etc…) and the theology in good hymns stays with us. Also, remembering that “the media is the message”, how we sing and raise our voices to God is theology in itself.

Returning to the topic of how this came about, thanks for these insights (and apologies for any I’ve missed)

(ditto… I’m sure they wouldn’t be doing that…)

As some us have observed, the resistance to traditional music seems to be strongest in the over 50’s.

There’s also the practical impact of organs being expensive and organists being rare, while guitars are cheap and guitarists are plentiful.

And then, on to what can be done about it…

I think there is little chance of directly changing the mind of a musical director who has a contempt for traditional music. I also suspect that there’s little point in “bargaining” to have a traditional hymn included from time to time. If they don’t want it, they will undermine it.

I note particularly that the parish (with good music) which prompted this thread was once without music, and then the priest steered the development of the music in the parish. This suggests to me that a “clean start” in the best way. If there is a Mass without music, then start a traditional choir for that Mass. Get the backing of your priest, if possible.

I would also like to use whatever influence I have in my parish to see that our organist is paid and to foster the learning of organ amongst our youth.

It is very important to support the music that is there! I sing with every hymn regardless of my feelings about it, and I keep singing in my choir. If ever there is a chance to influence the direction of music in my parish, then I will be in the front.

Finally, being musically qualified has immense power! Naturally, those who are able to sing, play instruments and conduct choirs have the most influence (if not total control!).

Thanks again to all, including those I have not mentioned directly!

~ Edmundus

I really take exception to the idea that Music Director are somehow “against” traditional music. The reality that I have found is that the pastors don’t want it. I can only assume that they are either tired of the oldie goldies (LOL) or, they are the ones that think if the parish is not more “contemporary” that the membership will go down. When I speak to fellow Directors around, nearly all of them say that they have used some older hymns, and that the boss has said, “that was nice, just don’t do it very often.”
I’m being totally serious.
The membership also gives a lot of pushback as you have mentioned already.
In my area, I have only met one director that had a mindset of NO traditional music. Her entire parish was molded over to only the contemporary radio songs for the Mass.
She’s no longer there, but the music really has not changed because the parishioners and the priests don’t want to change. They drank the kool-aid. They have lovely hymnals that are almost never used.
Sometimes, friends, it’s not the Director that drives the bus. In these times when salaries are low, and people need the work…you do what you need to do to keep the boss happy.
I do think it makes a difference where you live as well. I think it’s much easier to find traditional hymn, liturgies, and even church amenities in the North, where there is a long history. In the South where there are many converts who know nothing of traditional music,. and favor more of an “upbeat” and rather sentimental musical style, it’s harder to teach the congregations and lead them in our more historic hymns.
The point of catechesis is a good one. That is why the older hymns are so good. They are sound in their theology (for the most part). Some of the newer stuff might be lovely tunes, but the verses are often quite questionable. That’s why I use some of the pieces for instrumental filler, and not as congregational singing.
Just a few thoughts…
Peace,
pianist

 

[Cat]

I just want to make it clear that I LOVE a lot of the “modern” hymns. I would be heartbroken to see them removed from the hymnals or from the liturgy.

By “modern,” I mean many of the 40-year old (or older) hymns in the Catholic hymnal.

We never heard these in our Evangelical Protestant churches, so to me, they are “Catholic” hymns, not “Protestant.”

I think many of them have beautiful melodies and thought-provoking poetry for lyrics. Perhaps because so many of them were written when I was a teenager, they recall all kinds of emotions, dreams, hopes, fears, and faith in God that I had as a teenager, and still have now. Some of you who are much older or much young maybe just don’t “get it”. That’s OK, but please don’t think I’m somehow lacking because these hymns DO speak to me and touch my heart and help me to worship God.

I also like a lot of the more modern music that is being written.

I think that where we run into trouble on “modern” Christian music is that much of it is written for a soloists with backup singers. It’s NOT written for a congregation.

It’s like a congregation trying to sing “Every Valley” from Handel’s Messiah (or one of the other solo pieces). The music is fantastic–no gripes! But it’s just not written to be sung by the CHOIR! It’s a solo.

I think that’s why so much of the contemporary (written in the last ten years or so) music sounds so uncomfortable in the Mass. We aren’t really supposed to be singing it–we’re supposed to be letting a soloist sing it, and we just chime in on the response and the chorus.

A good example of this is “Our God Is An Awesome God” by Rich Mullin. This is a wonderful hymn, but NOT appropriate for the entire congregation! A soloist should lead out the verse, and every chime in on the very easy-to-sing response (“Our God is an Awesome God!”)

 

[jilly4ski]

The same can be said for JS Bach’s Mass in B Minor. But I have yet to hear a Mass which used or uses it.

You can come the parish I sing at. We don’t sing Bach’s Masses, but we sing Mozart’s, Haydn’s and lots of other 18th and 19th century Masses. There is also a gregorian chant schola to sing the propers. But to be fair there are few and far between parishes that do this and can afford to do it. (Our choir is a separate entity from the parish and solicit donations to pay for the orchestra and soloists). The parish choir sings the Renaissance Masses and polyphony for the Saturday evening Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

It’s like a congregation trying to sing “Every Valley” from Handel’s Messiah (or one of the other solo pieces). The music is fantastic–no gripes! But it’s just not written to be sung by the CHOIR! It’s a solo.

But the rest of the Messiah and a number of classical pieces are meant to be sung in different voices, something the normal congregation will definitely not go with. Contrast that with a Credo III, for example, which is much more suitable for everyone.

 

[jilly4ski]

The Bach Credo is very long and showy. It is stupendous music, but I don’t think it is desirable to turn the mass into a concert hall, where the music overshadows the sacrifice of the mass. I also doubt most Catholics would be able to stand it if the mass were over three hours.

With these pieces Mass did not take 3 hours. As you see the Credo, is about 30 minutes, and it is the longest part of the Mass ordinaries. (The Gloria is usually the next longest, followed by the Kryie. The whole Mass is about 1.5 hours, add in the homily and you are looking at a 2 hour Mass, not bad for a feast day. The Sanctus, Benedictus, and Angus Dei, are generally pretty short, 5 minutes or less. These pieces were written for the EF Mass. As such, the people would often be sitting while the Mass settings were being played and sung (except at the ex marie virgine… where they would have kneeled). And the priest would often be starting the offertory, and moving in the start of the Eucharistic prayers while the credo was being sung.

The parish I sing at occasionally, actually does (not Bach, but Mozart, Haydn, and others) full Mass settings like this. In fact, we sing Mozart’s Requiem for all souls Mass and did it for a deacon’s funeral a few weeks ago. (This year all the Masses that we sing at are ordinary form Masses, but in Latin). Mass will sometimes take 2 hours, but only if Mass is really full (communion takes a long time) or for very specific Masses, Mozart’s Requiem takes a long time, and Gounod’s Saint Cecilia Mass took a long time, but it was for the Parishes patronal feast of Saint Agnes. We do sing a lot of Missa Brevis, where the composer overlaid text or uses other compositional tricks to make the music shorter. Hayden’s Little Organ Mass is less than 20 minutes in run time. And is Mass in Times of War runs just under an hour.

 

[ProVobis]

With these pieces Mass did not take 3 hours. As you see the Credo, is about 30 minutes, and it is the longest part of the Mass ordinaries. (The Gloria is usually the next longest, followed by the Kryie. The whole Mass is about 1.5 hours, add in the homily and you are looking at a 2 hour Mass, not bad for a feast day. The Sanctus, Benedictus, and Angus Dei, are generally pretty short, 5 minutes or less. These pieces were written for the EF Mass. As such, the people would often be sitting while the Mass settings were being played and sung (except at the ex marie virgine… where they would have kneeled). And the priest would often be starting the offertory, and moving in the start of the Eucharistic prayers while the credo was being sung.

The parish I sing at occasionally, actually does (not Bach, but Mozart, Haydn, and others) full Mass settings like this. In fact, we sing Mozart’s Requiem for all souls Mass and did it for a deacon’s funeral a few weeks ago. (This year all the Masses that we sing at are ordinary form Masses, but in Latin). Mass will sometimes take 2 hours, but only if Mass is really full (communion takes a long time) or for very specific Masses, Mozart’s Requiem takes a long time, and Gounod’s Saint Cecilia Mass took a long time, but it was for the Parishes patronal feast of Saint Agnes. We do sing a lot of Missa Brevis, where the composer overlaid text or uses other compositional tricks to make the music shorter. Hayden’s Little Organ Mass is less than 20 minutes in run time. And is Mass in Times of War runs just under an hour.

Cool. But in most parishes they wouldn’t go along with a 5-minute Palestrina Kyrie.

youtube.com/watch?v=3n8XdKkrqgo

youtube.com/watch?v=IIcrgNtyX0U

 

[jilly4ski]

Cool. But in most parishes they wouldn’t go along with a 5-minute Palestrina Kyrie.

youtube.com/watch?v=3n8XdKkrqgo

That one is gorgeous, I don’t think the choir does that one.

Their schedule is there
stagnes.net/media/documents/2013-2014%20Chamber%20Choir%20Rehearsal%20Performance%20Schedule.pdf

The choir I sing in schedule can be found here chorale.churchofsaintagnes.org/pdfs/Program-Interior-2013-Final-sm.pdf

But like I said few parishes can do this. We are the only one in our large metro area that does it, there is a parish in Chicago that does something similar. I know there is one parish in Manhattan those does some traditional music settings. The thing about the Palestrina Mass, is that you don’t need an orchestra or even an organist. However, you better have really good singers, and be very prepared (it is easy to get lost, mistime these pieces).

Imagine this piece sung after the consecration. youtube.com/watch?v=Dfnt26T5uEs

 

[pianistclare]

I just want to make it clear that I LOVE a lot of the “modern” hymns. I would be heartbroken to see them removed from the hymnals or from the liturgy.

By “modern,” I mean many of the 40-year old (or older) hymns in the Catholic hymnal.

We never heard these in our Evangelical Protestant churches, so to me, they are “Catholic” hymns, not “Protestant.”

I think many of them have beautiful melodies and thought-provoking poetry for lyrics. Perhaps because so many of them were written when I was a teenager, they recall all kinds of emotions, dreams, hopes, fears, and faith in God that I had as a teenager, and still have now. Some of you who are much older or much young maybe just don’t “get it”. That’s OK, but please don’t think I’m somehow lacking because these hymns DO speak to me and touch my heart and help me to worship God.

I also like a lot of the more modern music that is being written.

I think that where we run into trouble on “modern” Christian music is that much of it is written for a soloists with backup singers. It’s NOT written for a congregation.

It’s like a congregation trying to sing “Every Valley” from Handel’s Messiah (or one of the other solo pieces). The music is fantastic–no gripes! But it’s just not written to be sung by the CHOIR! It’s a solo.

I think that’s why so much of the contemporary (written in the last ten years or so) music sounds so uncomfortable in the Mass. We aren’t really supposed to be singing it–we’re supposed to be letting a soloist sing it, and we just chime in on the response and the chorus.

A good example of this is “Our God Is An Awesome God” by Rich Mullin. This is a wonderful hymn, but NOT appropriate for the entire congregation! A soloist should lead out the verse, and every chime in on the very easy-to-sing response (“Our God is an Awesome God!”)

Yes, I love hymns like “Hosea”.

 

[Edmundus1581]

I just want to make it clear that I LOVE a lot of the “modern” hymns. I would be heartbroken to see them removed from the hymnals or from the liturgy.

By “modern,” I mean many of the 40-year old (or older) hymns in the Catholic hymnal.

We never heard these in our Evangelical Protestant churches, so to me, they are “Catholic” hymns, not “Protestant.”

I think many of them have beautiful melodies and thought-provoking poetry for lyrics. Perhaps because so many of them were written when I was a teenager, they recall all kinds of emotions, dreams, hopes, fears, and faith in God that I had as a teenager, and still have now. Some of you who are much older or much young maybe just don’t “get it”. That’s OK, but please don’t think I’m somehow lacking because these hymns DO speak to me and touch my heart and help me to worship God.

I’m sorry if I’ve caused any offence. The hymns (and songs?) in my OP included some that I don’t know, and they may well be modern ones, and even very good ones. One of the reasons that song list appealed to me so much was that they have managed to mix traditional with other genres.

My question was primarily about traditional music and why it has been banished from so many parishes. Of course, it has mostly been replaced by contemporary hymns, and so we get into a bit of comparison, but that was not my main intention. When these hymns speak to anyone then I am glad to hear it. My problem is that they have displaced the music that I like - and not partially but (almost) totally. I would enjoy a few of the contemporary hymns too if I didn’t fear (sic!) that this is all we’ll ever have.

I note that in your first post you said that your parish has a mix of traditional and modern. I’m sure that it can be done, and done well!

I think that where we run into trouble on “modern” Christian music is that much of it is written for a soloists with backup singers. It’s NOT written for a congregation.

It’s like a congregation trying to sing “Every Valley” from Handel’s Messiah (or one of the other solo pieces). The music is fantastic–no gripes! But it’s just not written to be sung by the CHOIR! It’s a solo.

I think that’s why so much of the contemporary (written in the last ten years or so) music sounds so uncomfortable in the Mass. We aren’t really supposed to be singing it–we’re supposed to be letting a soloist sing it, and we just chime in on the response and the chorus.

A good example of this is “Our God Is An Awesome God” by Rich Mullin. This is a wonderful hymn, but NOT appropriate for the entire congregation! A soloist should lead out the verse, and every chime in on the very easy-to-sing response (“Our God is an Awesome God!”)

Absolutely!

It’s painful to see a whole parish, especially the men, floundering and then just giving up during the verses of a modern “song”, and then picking up the chorus with sigh of relief.

If we are to have modern hymns, then please select ones which are written for a congregation, or, if it is to be a difficult verse and singable chorus, then actually lead it like that. I don’t know whether it is liturgically correct however to have the congregation singing only the chorus’s of a song, like the verse-and-response of a psalm. It makes more sense musically, but might be suspect liturgically.

 

[DaveBj]

snip

Absolutely!

It’s painful to see a whole parish, especially the men, floundering and then just giving up during the verses of a modern “song”, and then picking up the chorus with sigh of relief.

If we are to have modern hymns, then please select ones which are written for a congregation, or, if it is to be a difficult verse and singable chorus, then actually lead it like that. I don’t know whether it is liturgically correct however to have the congregation singing only the chorus’s of a song, like the verse-and-response of a psalm. It makes more sense musically, but might be suspect liturgically.

AMEN!!! (I couldn’t bring up the “more smilies” window, so you’ll have to be satisfied with )

We went from the ordinary (not quite sublime) to the ridiculous this morning. Out of the blue our parish had a youth-oriented mass, with the music led by a youth choir, accompanied by piano and guitar. The response settings were eminently forgettable, and the songs that were used in the hymn places were precisely what was mentioned above – songs written for a soloists. Most of the congregation stood around with their thumbs in their mouths (not really, but you get the picture).

 

[benjohnson]

Sometimes I think that priests / music directors think that they are in some imaginary “coolness” competition, and if their parish is not “cool” enough, the parishioners and their envelopes will evaporate to some other more groovy parish.

Talking with our music director, I can vouch for this.

In our church, whenever we get the urge to be happy in the Lord’s love, we threw out most of the Haugen (et al) crud and replaced it with authentic african-american spirituals. They’re real music with the real gospel.

It worlds really well - we have the old Hymns, Chants, and Chorals of our parents, grandparents from long ago with grace and dignity, and we have the authentic spirituals that make you proclaim the Lord’s grace in a loud voice.

Between those two - there’s no room for Marty Haugen pap.

 

[jilly4ski]

Talking with our music director, I can vouch for this.

In our church, whenever we get the urge to be happy in the Lord’s love, we threw out most of the Haugen (et al) crud and replaced it with authentic african-american spirituals. They’re real music with the real gospel.

It worlds really well - we have the old Hymns, Chants, and Chorals of our parents, grandparents from long ago with grace and dignity, and we have the authentic spirituals that make you proclaim the Lord’s grace in a loud voice.

Between those two - there’s no room for Marty Haugen pap.

… African American spirituals? Maybe I have just had really bad experience, but in my opinion they do not belong in Catholic Churches, since they are in their inception, protestant hymns and often about escaping slavery. Also, my experience with African American spirituals in Catholic Church is a bunch of white ladies in there 60s trying to sing spirituals. Sigh, I had one experience in NY when a parish got merged and the time we regularly went, switched to a “spiritual” mass. The only African Americans in the entire congregations were in the choir and all the “songs” they sang where completely unfamiliar.

 

[benjohnson]

… African American spirituals? Maybe I have just had really bad experience, but in my opinion they do not belong in Catholic Churches,

I can understand what you’re saying - it was my first reaction too. But there’s some really good ones that are full of scripture, and full of polyphony and are quite challenging to play and sing.

You need something to fill the apparent genetic need for music directors to mess around with - and for us, it has worked well in keeping them out of trouble and away from the baby-boomer 1960-1980 range of drivel.

 

[DaveBj]

… African American spirituals?

snip

Sorry I just had to go to Youtube and watch the Geezinslaws’ video “Help, I’m White and I Can’t Get Down.”

There’s nothing wrong with spirituals at all as a form of musical worship, but I ABSOLUTELY cannot imagine our parish doing them.

 

[jilly4ski]

Sorry I just had to go to Youtube and watch the Geezinslaws’ video “Help, I’m White and I Can’t Get Down.”

There’s nothing wrong with spirituals at all as a form of musical worship, but I ABSOLUTELY cannot imagine our parish doing them.

LOL, I know, and maybe it is because I have lived in the “north” my while life, but generally when people start doing African American spirituals, it is a bunch of Norwegian and German Lutheran types (or Catholics influenced by them), singing Swing Low, Sweet Chariot. LOL very stiff.

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t know whether it is liturgically correct however to have the congregation singing only the chorus’s of a song, like the verse-and-response of a psalm.

It’s not that simple, given the non-catchy melodies that could have been written better. OTOH, refrains such as in “The Lord is My Shepherd” by Vermulst, makes them easier to remember, at least for the moment. Be that as it may be, the newer English translation made most of my organ accompaniment hymnals obsolete. I still have my St. Basil hymnal which has preserved the more traditional hymns.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

With these pieces Mass did not take 3 hours. As you see the Credo, is about 30 minutes, and it is the longest part of the Mass ordinaries. (The Gloria is usually the next longest, followed by the Kryie. The whole Mass is about 1.5 hours, add in the homily and you are looking at a 2 hour Mass, not bad for a feast day. The Sanctus, Benedictus, and Angus Dei, are generally pretty short, 5 minutes or less. These pieces were written for the EF Mass. As such, the people would often be sitting while the Mass settings were being played and sung (except at the ex marie virgine… where they would have kneeled). And the priest would often be starting the offertory, and moving in the start of the Eucharistic prayers while the credo was being sung.

The parish I sing at occasionally, actually does (not Bach, but Mozart, Haydn, and others) full Mass settings like this. In fact, we sing Mozart’s Requiem for all souls Mass and did it for a deacon’s funeral a few weeks ago. (This year all the Masses that we sing at are ordinary form Masses, but in Latin). Mass will sometimes take 2 hours, but only if Mass is really full (communion takes a long time) or for very specific Masses, Mozart’s Requiem takes a long time, and Gounod’s Saint Cecilia Mass took a long time, but it was for the Parishes patronal feast of Saint Agnes. We do sing a lot of Missa Brevis, where the composer overlaid text or uses other compositional tricks to make the music shorter. Hayden’s Little Organ Mass is less than 20 minutes in run time. And is Mass in Times of War runs just under an hour.

Maybe I was exaggerating, but the B Minor Mass is still a long piece. I added up the video times for the complete Karl Richter performance and it came out to over two hours. Maybe a Dutch “historically-informed” orchestra will manage to race through the music faster. I have never seen one of these big orchestral mass settings in a real liturgy (poor me), but I imagine the music is not continuous outside the sermon. The orchestra is not playing over the canon is it? I could see a mass set to the B Minor Mass taking around three hours.