Why do we suffer?

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If God is fully powerful and fully knowledgeable, He would have foreseen our Fall which caused our suffering and selfish views based on a new perversion of Free Will.

It was a ‘happy fault’ because it caused the Incarnation of the Word of God for which I am very thankful and amazed, but I don’t understand why God could allow us to suffer in His foreknowledge of the future…unless this suffering has a beneficial aspect that I can’t understand fully as a homo sapiens which experiences it and has no ability to comprehend outside myself save through imagination and empathy.

(Sorry, sort of a ramble and a question :o )
 
If God is fully powerful and fully knowledgeable, He would have foreseen our Fall which caused our suffering and selfish views based on a new perversion of Free Will.

It was a ‘happy fault’ because it caused the Incarnation of the Word of God for which I am very thankful and amazed, but I don’t understand why God could allow us to suffer in His foreknowledge of the future…unless this suffering has a beneficial aspect that I can’t understand fully as a homo sapiens which experiences it and has no ability to comprehend outside myself save through imagination and empathy.

(Sorry, sort of a ramble and a question :o )
How can God foresee that which he does not timelessly create?

God allows suffering to occur in order to actualise a greater good.
 
Since the fall God has given us deliverance from our suffering and fallen state. Adam and Eve had immortality and other preternatural gifts that were lost. Death is a merciful act on God’s part. The alternative was immortality and misery. Suffering purifies us to experience God more fully and is an inevitable part of life. It’s how we look at it. Offer it up to God. Secular society says we should avoid suffering at all costs.

Our suffering here on earth is but a blink to eternity. It is a small price to pay, even though it seems bad when going through it.
 
How can God foresee that which he does not timelessly create?

God allows suffering to occur in order to actualise a greater good.
God can forsee all, including our personal sources of suffering, because He is all-knowing. Saying God allows suffering to occur to glorify Himself is conceding that He is not all-good and in fact, quite evil. Why would a being that is God need to cause me to suffer to glorify Himself? That seems more like a selfish puppet master.
 
Since the fall God has given us deliverance from our suffering and fallen state. Adam and Eve had immortality and other preternatural gifts that were lost. Death is a merciful act on God’s part. The alternative was immortality and misery. Suffering purifies us to experience God more fully and is an inevitable part of life. It’s how we look at it. Offer it up to God. Secular society says we should avoid suffering at all costs.

Our suffering here on earth is but a blink to eternity. It is a small price to pay, even though it seems bad when going through it.
Yes, I acknowledged that God delievered us. It was a great and merciful act. You comment that secular society asks us to avoid suffering. The question I’m wondering about is not whether suffering is beneficial or whether I should like it or not. I see that it is beneficial. The question is why would an all-loving God require use of suffering. I’m admitting that my perspective might need readjusting, but at this time I don’t see why a God that truly fully loved us all would want us to suffer…
 
Since the fall God has given us deliverance from our suffering and fallen state. Adam and Eve had immortality and other preternatural gifts that were lost. Death is a merciful act on God’s part. The alternative was immortality and misery. Suffering purifies us to experience God more fully and is an inevitable part of life. It’s how we look at it. Offer it up to God. Secular society says we should avoid suffering at all costs.

Our suffering here on earth is but a blink to eternity. It is a small price to pay, even though it seems bad when going through it.
This is interesting. I’ve never really thought of death as a sort of gift given to deliver us from enduring an eternity of inevitably miserable sinfulness in this world. That’s an intriguing way to look at it, if indeed you’re interpreting it as such, and I’m even tempted to accept it, though I still think I’d deny it ultimately. I think death is more like a natural result of sin, its material manifestation, in a sense, rather than an additional occurrence that happens to be consistent with it. I doubt that it’s somehow possible for a sinful creature to be immortal and never suffer any decomposition of his material body. Fortunately, God will resurrect us after our bodily deaths, so the evil of death shall be divinely defeated.

Scapularkid8,

I’d say MindOverMatter2 got it. The actual possibility of sin – and as a result, of suffering and death – is inextricably tied up with the nature of free will, (and, consequently, with the potential for great things like love and mercy and such), which could hardly be “free” unless an alternative were genuinely available. It just so happens that Man inevitably chose to sin. God nonetheless chooses to create anyway, despite knowing we choose to sin, which appears to be a good reason for believing that the goodness of free choice, love, and all those things carrying the potential for evil, outweighs whatever evil has and will ever come. Especially when we consider that God has, through His omnipotence, even transformed evil into arguably the highest of goods.

Sin and suffering, as far as I’m concerned, will always surpass the limits of satisfactory human understanding, for what it’s worth.
 
The question is why would an all-loving God require use of suffering.
I’m just going to take a shot without worrying so much about detailed precision or organization here. I hope I hit your concern and don’t advance anything untrue.

First, I think suffering is more a natural result of enduring sin, separation from God, and all its destructive effects. Original sin is an unchangeable fact of human existence; our perfect natures were corrupted, and so our default position bears a degree of sinfulness and separation. The separation causes pain to us.

Now, we may take on that natural pain of human existence, i.e., we can attempt to cure ourselves of it by making the incredibly difficult turn back to God and enduring its trials, directly bearing the weight of evil, yet refusing to settle with sin. And we will defeat it by lovingly accepting God’s grace. The greatness of suffering is that a love which is willing to endure trials and pain is not only initially greater than a simple, untried love; it’s gradually strengthened by withstanding the hardship, to a point that’s, in the end, even more magnificent than an originally pristine soul would possess, due to its being even stronger. God rejoices more at the return of one sheep that was lost than He does for the sheep that had never strayed.

Or we can run from the pain, which turns out to be impossible. Avoiding suffering is basically a refusal to own up to our sin and acknowledge it for what it is. Flee suffering, say by seeking comfort in worldly success or distraction, and you end up with more sin and thus more drastic pains of separation. The paradox is that, in the acceptance of suffering, one actually ends up causing himself less of it, though that’s hardly a legitimate reason to do it.

The character of the sufferings differ. I’d expect the holy man who embraces suffering to be defying his corrupt desires toward self-interest, popularity, worldly pleasures, etc., meaning that his pain is really from his perverted distaste for the good. (I think of how the demon in ‘The Exorcist’ can’t bear holy water; it physically hurts.) His pain is that of healing and transformation, sort of like undergoing chemotherapy. Our default corruption makes us born to instinctively, but inordinately desire that which will continue us down the path of sin, and resisting that drive feels like being twisted and torn in two. (After the Fall, our rational and animal capacities were disoriented and turned upside down: instead of the lower being directed by the higher, the higher became turned toward subjection to the lower, so that our default orientation is pointing further downward into sin. That’s why the person who refuses to suffer is only causing himself even more suffering. He’s diving right into the source by his very aim to run away.)

So I’m not sure God sort of arbitrarily determined that coming into a renewed relationship with Him should be painful and unenjoyable (though He’d probably be so “justified,” considering we deserve to be punished for our sin, assuming, per impossibile, that God even requires justification for His Will.) Suffering seems to be a necessary condition and effect of realigning ourselves with His Will, away from ours, and letting Him heal us from our self-inflicted wounds. Follow Christ. So take up your Cross and don’t be afraid of a little or a lot of worldly suffering. (Or of voluntarily taking on the burden of someone else’s sin! Feel free to take mine.)
 
Yes, I acknowledged that God delievered us. It was a great and merciful act. You comment that secular society asks us to avoid suffering. The question I’m wondering about is not whether suffering is beneficial or whether I should like it or not. I see that it is beneficial. The question is why would an all-loving God require use of suffering. I’m admitting that my perspective might need readjusting, but at this time I don’t see why a God that truly fully loved us all would want us to suffer…
He created us because he wants and loves us despite knowing that we would fall and suffer. Now we must suffer for the propitiation of sins, our own and those of others. Look what God required of His only begotten Son (God Himself) whom He Loved more than anyone.

Also, We must love Him. There is no greater Love than giving up your life for that which you love. What better way to show God that we love Him than through suffering?

Read *Why Must I Suffer?*by Rev. F.J. Remler for a hard hitting view of the subject.
 
We suffer because of Adam’s sin (original sin). God suffered for us not because He deserves it but because He loves us and wants to save us from sin.
 
Suffering often breaks pride and can add to humility. When suffering is accepted in the spirit of “carrying your cross” it’s a way of following Christ, who accepted his suffering in his Passion. Most of the great saints had endured much suffering in their lives, all the Apostles, Saint Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Saint Therese and most others. It can be seen as God purging the soul of it’s impurities brought on by the Fall and sin, impurities that if they aren’t removed in the purifying fire of suffering in this life, would have to be removed in the purifying fire of pugatory in the next life. And when you embrace your suffering as your duty in carrying your cross it can make it a little more bearable.
 
God can forsee all, including our personal sources of suffering, because He is all-knowing. Saying God allows suffering to occur to glorify Himself is conceding that He is not all-good and in fact, quite evil. Why would a being that is God need to cause me to suffer to glorify Himself? That seems more like a selfish puppet master.
It would be more honest to quote my actual words so that the context of what I am saying is not lost to those who wish to understand the truth of what I am saying.
 
If God is fully powerful and fully knowledgeable, He would have foreseen our Fall which caused our suffering and selfish views based on a new perversion of Free Will.
Not all suffering is caused by the abuse of free will. Pain is a defence mechanism which enables us to survive in a physical world.
It was a ‘happy fault’ because it caused the Incarnation of the Word of God for which I am very thankful and amazed, but I don’t understand why God could allow us to suffer in His foreknowledge of the future…unless this suffering has a beneficial aspect that I can’t understand fully as a homo sapiens which experiences it and has no ability to comprehend outside myself save through imagination and empathy.
Not all suffering is beneficial. Much suffering is useless and purposeless but this is inevitable in a world where there is an element of chance within the framework of Design. Disastrous coincidences like the earthquake in Haiti are due entirely to natural causes. Yet even useless suffering and even death can transform us if they are accepted as a way of following Our Lord and Master. When we share in the Passion and Death of Jesus on the Cross we also share in His Resurrection.
 
Since the fall God has given us deliverance from our suffering and fallen state. Adam and Eve had immortality and other preternatural gifts that were lost. Death is a merciful act on God’s part. The alternative was immortality and misery. Suffering purifies us to experience God more fully and is an inevitable part of life. It’s how we look at it. Offer it up to God. Secular society says we should avoid suffering at all costs.

Our suffering here on earth is but a blink to eternity. It is a small price to pay, even though it seems bad when going through it.
Well spoken. And no matter how big your problems seem to you, and they are very real. There are others who would trade shoes with you in a New-York minute.

Pray and become very familiar with the Blessed Mother Mary, the Rosary, and Mass.
 
Not all suffering is caused by the abuse of free will. Pain is a defence mechanism which enables us to survive in a physical world.

Not all suffering is beneficial. Much suffering is useless and purposeless but this is inevitable in a world where there is an element of chance within the framework of Design. Disastrous coincidences like the earthquake in Haiti are due entirely to natural causes. Yet even useless suffering and even death can transform us if they are accepted as a way of following Our Lord and Master. When we share in the Passion and Death of Jesus on the Cross we also share in His Resurrection.
The Virgin Mary always exhorts us to pray. Could she be telling us that more prayer has a quantum effect on the world? Can prayer help put off these “natural” disasters?
 
The Virgin Mary always exhorts us to pray. Could she be telling us that more prayer has a quantum effect on the world? Can prayer help put off these “natural” disasters?
Prayer undoubtedly has effects on every aspect of reality. It is impossible for us to know how many accidents and disasters have been averted by miracles just as it is impossible to know what is in our best interests in the long run. Many misfortunes turn out to be blessings in disguise. So prayers which seem unanswered are answered in ways we don’t understand. We do know there is overwhelming evidence of miracles throughout history in every part of the world.
 
Even in athletics it is said that “Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional.” Suffering is primarily thinking about pain in a peronalized way so that emotions, mostly negative, about consequences are activated. Mostly we confuse these two distinct things. One is physiology, that other is mentality.

So why do we suffer? Usually because we have been trained to do so, either subtly, by design, or by default of inadequate mental tools. Good antidotes to suffering can, for instance, be found in such things as Byrone Katie’s 4 questions and turn around, the Callahan technique and its variants, and any course of critical thinking that aligns the mind with getting out of the victim position.

Historically this has been done by training, from Bushido just raw heroism, even in the face of daily life. As practicing Catholics, we have ways from prayer to services to deal with suffering, our own or other’s.
 
Even in athletics it is said that “Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional.” Suffering is primarily thinking about pain in a peronalized way so that emotions, mostly negative, about consequences are activated. Mostly we confuse these two distinct things. One is physiology, that other is mentality.

So why do we suffer? Usually because we have been trained to do so, either subtly, by design, or by default of inadequate mental tools. Good antidotes to suffering can, for instance, be found in such things as Byrone Katie’s 4 questions and turn around, the Callahan technique and its variants, and any course of critical thinking that aligns the mind with getting out of the victim position.

Historically this has been done by training, from Bushido just raw heroism, even in the face of daily life. As practicing Catholics, we have ways from prayer to services to deal with suffering, our own or other’s.
Excellent points! The power of the mind demonstrates the falsity of materialism and the notion that suffering is an insurmountable problem.
 
If God is fully powerful and fully knowledgeable, He would have foreseen our Fall which caused our suffering and selfish views based on a new perversion of Free Will.

It was a ‘happy fault’ because it caused the Incarnation of the Word of God for which I am very thankful and amazed, but I don’t understand why God could allow us to suffer in His foreknowledge of the future…unless this suffering has a beneficial aspect that I can’t understand fully as a homo sapiens which experiences it and has no ability to comprehend outside myself save through imagination and empathy.

(Sorry, sort of a ramble and a question :o )
I now believe that suffering is the equivalent of the Prodigal Sons self-imposed exile from his father. The suffering, itself, is what turned him back. We aren’t turned back to the Father until we’ve turned internally-willfully-ultimately to the point that we love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. And we aren’t born that way, we’re born exiled from God, into the rebellion of our first parents, mistrusting Him, and we don’t even come close to rectifying this situation and fulfilling the greatest commandment simply by being members of the CC. Suffering can teach us what Adam & Eve didn’t know, simply that we need God. Suffering is the absence of God.
 
While I can’t really give help for suffering, I can try to explain why it is not logically inconsistent with God. Hopefully I can get this right. Basically, all good is actuality. Since only God is pure actuality, all creation, which is “separate” from God, must be imperfect. If it were perfect it would be God. So basically, if we’re asking God to make a perfect creation, in the strict sense of perfect, then we’re asking Him to not create anything.

If you need help dealing with your suffering, I would be happy to pray for you, and would recommend you turn to the Lord Jesus Christ and His Blessed Mother.
 
Even in athletics it is said that “Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional.” Suffering is primarily thinking about pain in a peronalized way so that emotions, mostly negative, about consequences are activated. Mostly we confuse these two distinct things. One is physiology, that other is mentality.
Good points.
 
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