Why do we tolerate liturgical abuses?

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keefabarmorun

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shlomo 'amkhun,

bshem abo wabro wruHo dqudsho Had aloho shareero amin!

I would like to run a poll and ask a question:

Poll: The Qurbono and the Mass

Mass: Who do you vote for?
A) A Mass suffering from liturgical abuses:
gloria.tv/?media=164417
B) A Mass celebrated properly:
gloria.tv/?media=170350

Qurbono: Who do you vote for?
C) A Qurbono suffering from liturgical abuses:
mtv.com.lb/Religious_Specials/Mass_From_Harissa?type=1&filter=0
D) A Qurbono celebrated properly:
mtv.com.lb/Mass/06_19_2011?type=1&filter=0

Question:
Why do we tolerate these liturgical abuses?

I look forward to hearing people’s opinion.

push(w) bashlomo,
keefa bar morun
 
shlomo 'amkhun,
ou shlomo 'amokh. brikh d’étho beinothan. 🙂
I would like to run a poll and ask a question:

Poll: The Qurbono and the Mass

Mass: Who do you vote for?
A) A Mass suffering from liturgical abuses:
gloria.tv/?media=164417
B) A Mass celebrated properly:
gloria.tv/?media=170350
The first is Novus Ordo and looks to be some sort of bier garten festival more than Mass. I would not have been present. Well, enough said about that. :eek: The second, of course, is according to the Usus Antiquior, and for me that is the only choice.
Qurbono: Who do you vote for?
C) A Qurbono suffering from liturgical abuses:
mtv.com.lb/Religious_Specials/Mass_From_Harissa?type=1&filter=0
D) A Qurbono celebrated properly:
mtv.com.lb/Mass/06_19_2011?type=1&filter=0
The first is from Harissa, and these days, that seems to spell trouble right from the start, even with Mar Beshara presiding. In any case, I wasn’t impressed with the applause at the beginning of the video, but beyond that, I don’t know how much difference there is between the two.

Both follow the neo-Maronite Novus Ordo, both are basically Syriac-free, and both contain their share of neo-latinizations and arabizations. Notice, e.g., that both have the Novus Ordo-style “offertory” procession, and that both have that incessant and infernal strumming on the 'oud etc. The fact that the second video is ad orientem is an important difference (and exceedingly rare), but while that is commendable in and of itself, it doesn’t much redeem the whole.

They also both contain their share of abuses: for example, in the second video, the housoyo is sung by a layman in the presence of several concelebrating priests.

I could go on and on, but I’ll spare the forum a major liturgical rant which would probably put the non-Maronites and non-Syriacs in coma.
Question:
Why do we tolerate these liturgical abuses?
The Latin Church has a choice. The Maronites, in practice, do not. :mad:
 
I was so excited at the prospect of seeing a properly-celebrated liturgy in that second video, too, since I only have audio recordings to go by. Tawdi saggi, Malphono… :mad: 😛

But seriously, I don’t think it’s appropriate or helpful to compare the Maronite liturgy to the Latin because, as Malphono rightly points out, the Latins at least have other options. With the Maronites, it seems to be more or less up to the “luck of the draw” that you’ll get a celebrant who knows what the hell their doing and does things correctly, and it seems that very few do.

I say this as a non-Maronite/non-Syriac, and meaning absolutely no disrespect at all, but, well…prove me wrong.
 
ou shlomo 'amokh. brikh d’étho beinothan. 🙂
tawdi lokh oH rHeemo. weno of fSeeHoyo no deet ‘amkhun.
The first is Novus Ordo and looks to be some sort of bier garten festival more than Mass. I would not have been present. Well, enough said about that. :eek: The second, of course, is according to the Usus Antiquior, and for me that is the only choice.
I hear your brother. I am against all Latinisation efforts within our Church, but I fully respect the Latin Church’s rites within its Churches. My preference is also for the Second video.
The first is from Harissa, and these days, that seems to spell trouble right from the start, even with Mar Beshara presiding. In any case, I wasn’t impressed with the applause at the beginning of the video, but beyond that, I don’t know how much difference there is between the two.
LOL! 😃 I still don’t know how the construction of that Church got approved (or how St. Charbel Church at ‘anneya was also permitted.) It has no redeeming quality when held against the Antiochan Syriac Maronite Tradition with regards to the construction of a Church.

Excluding all exceptions that have been permitted:
-The High Alter in the Syriac Maronite Church should be towards the East with the Tabernacle in the Middle (like in the second video) – the Holy of Holies.
-Here’s the instruction from the Teaching of the Apostles in Syriac about facing the East: som hokhil shleeHe dalmadenHo waw mSalen. meTul dakh barqe dboreq men madenHo wmetHze ‘damo lma’arbo hokhano tehwe meteeteh dabreh dnosho dabhode neda’ wnetbayon dmen madenHo metHze men shelyo.
-According to Patriarch Douhai, the Alter shouldn’t be connected to wall, so that the priest can go around the back when required, but definitely should not have a seat behind it.
-The nave should be below the High Alter.
-In the middle of the nave there should be a Beema (AKA. Hoosoyo) that is raised a step above the nave, but not higher than the Alter.
-The Service of the Word should be carried out in the Beema, and the Gospel should be read from the “goghulto” in the Beema.
-The priest is supposed to face the East (towards the Light of Christ) along with the people, as he is offering the sacrifice on behalf of the faithful; and not concelebrated.
-The word “qurbono” has the joint meaning of “offering/sacrifice”.
-The musical instruments are supposed to follow the voice and not the other way around.
-The Church is supposed to be divided between men (on the right) and women (on the left) representing the created children of God; it also plays a part in how the hymns are hymned and what they signify.
-There are a lot more unacceptable exceptions, but like you said it might be exhaustive for people on this forum.
Both follow the neo-Maronite Novus Ordo, both are basically Syriac-free, and both contain their share of neo-latinizations and arabizations. Notice, e.g., that both have the Novus Ordo-style “offertory” procession, and that both have that incessant and infernal strumming on the 'oud etc. The fact that the second video is ad orientem is an important difference (and exceedingly rare), but while that is commendable in and of itself, it doesn’t much redeem the whole.
Actually although the Qurbono has been Arabised (very sad :mad:), the structure of the current Qurbono is a lot closer to the pre-Jacobitisation and the pre-Latinisation w/Arabisation, but there’s still some work to be done on it. The best example of how the Syriac Maronite Qurbono should look like: see the Tekse dashHimto (for the Service of the Word) – those hours that are mentioned in the “ktobo dhudoyo” and the Anaphora of “sharar” for the “qoorob qurbono.”

The offertory procession is actually an ancient Syriac Maronite practice that occurred at the time of the pre-Anaphora. The preparation of the gifts according to the ancient Syriac Maronite tradition is done in the “beth dyoqun”.
They also both contain their share of abuses: for example, in the second video, the housoyo is sung by a layman in the presence of several concelebrating priests.
Yes they do, but unfortunately the rubric now permits it. Our Church followed the Latinisation practice of diminishing the different levels of the deaconate and has given way more roles to the laity than they should have as per the Syriac Tradition.
I could go on and on, but I’ll spare the forum a major liturgical rant which would probably put the non-Maronites and non-Syriacs in coma.
I hear you brother, it annoys me as well, and these abuses even annoy many of the Maronite faithful who aren’t that well versed on these subjects.

My preference is to pray the various Tekse (shHimto, fenqito, etc…) fully in Syriac and in Church to respond to the teshmeshto dqurbono (in Syriac in a low voice.)
The Latin Church has a choice. The Maronites, in practice, do not. :mad:
That is true, but the Church is divided between those who support the Antiochan Syriac Maronite Tradition 👍 and those that support the Latinisation/Arabisation/Vernacularism imitator of the West Tradition :o.

aloho nbarekh lokh,
keefa bar morun
 
shlomo dzheremi,
I was so excited at the prospect of seeing a properly-celebrated liturgy in that second video, too, since I only have audio recordings to go by. Tawdi saggi, Malphono… :mad: 😛
Yes I know it is a bit of a let down. 😉

By proper, I was saying that it followed the rubric of the Qurbono text.
But seriously, I don’t think it’s appropriate or helpful to compare the Maronite liturgy to the Latin because, as Malphono rightly points out, the Latins at least have other options. With the Maronites, it seems to be more or less up to the “luck of the draw” that you’ll get a celebrant who knows what the hell their doing and does things correctly, and it seems that very few do.
Actually I wasn’t comparing the Latin Mass to the Syriac Qurbono, but rather comparing two Latin Masses against each other, and then two Syriac “Qurbone” against each other – in both cases with regards to liturgical abuses and the application of the rubric.
I say this as a non-Maronite/non-Syriac, and meaning absolutely no disrespect at all, but, well…prove me wrong.
LOL! 🙂 None taken!

push bashlomo,
Keefa bar morun
 
I see. My apologies for having misunderstood you.

I’d apologize in Syriac, but I know even less than the average neo-Maronite. 😦
 
LOL! 😃 I still don’t know how the construction of that Church got approved (or how St. Charbel Church at ‘anneya was also permitted.) It has no redeeming quality when held against the Antiochan Syriac Maronite Tradition with regards to the construction of a Church.
I haven’t seen what they did in Annaya, but that monstrosity in Harissa is vile. So, too, the “Bkerke Bowl” in the courtyard of the Patriarchate. Both should be blown to smithereens. Along with the banquet tables. :mad:
Actually although the Qurbono has been Arabised (very sad :mad:), the structure of the current Qurbono is a lot closer to the pre-Jacobitisation and the pre-Latinisation w/Arabisation, but there’s still some work to be done on it.
I am not of the school of thought that accepts the Gemayel-ism of “jacobitisation”. Never have been and never will be. That theory amounts to saying that the Maronites were the freaks of the Levant and initiated Novus Ordo-like practices 1000+ years before Bugnini. And we both know all too well that that is a blatant lie, perpetrated by those on “the commission” who are consumed by the dreaded “spirit of Vatican II” and in love with the Novus Ordo. :mad:
The offertory procession is actually an ancient Syriac Maronite practice that occurred at the time of the pre-Anaphora. The preparation of the gifts according to the ancient Syriac Maronite tradition is done in the “beth dyoqun”.
Yes, the preparation was done at the beth diyakon, but behind the soutoro (sanctuary curtain). There was never a “procession” involving the laity. That is a 100% pure, unadulterated, Gemayel-sponsored Novus Ordo neo-latinization that I will never accept.
Yes they do, but unfortunately the rubric now permits it. Our Church followed the Latinisation practice of diminishing the different levels of the deaconate and has given way more roles to the laity than they should have as per the Syriac Tradition.
Another rubric of the Novus Ordo-inspired school of neo-latinization. :mad:
I hear you brother, it annoys me as well, and these abuses even annoy many of the Maronite faithful who aren’t that well versed on these subjects.
Yes. I even know people in this country who feel the same way. 🙂
That is true, but the Church is divided between those who support the Antiochan Syriac Maronite Tradition 👍 and those that support the Latinisation/Arabisation/Vernacularism imitator of the West Tradition
Where in that schema would you place Gemayel and his sycophants? I’m curious.

BTW, if you’d prefer to do this by private message, please be my guest. 😉

lilyo tobo lokh, ahi
 
brikh safro oH,
I am not of the school of thought that accepts the Gemayel-ism of “jacobitisation”. Never have been and never will be. That theory amounts to saying that the Maronites were the freaks of the Levant and initiated Novus Ordo-like practices 1000+ years before Bugnini. And we both know all too well that that is a blatant lie, perpetrated by those on “the commission” who are consumed by the dreaded “spirit of Vatican II” and in love with the Novus Ordo. :mad:
Luckily even our current Pope is coming out against the so called “Spirit of Vatican II”

When you speak about practices, are you speaking about the rubric with regards to the participation of the laity, and/or the structure of the qurbono?

With regards to Jacobitisation I’m working on something that explores the question of Jacobitisation and Latinisation of the Syriac Maronite qurbono.

The Syriac Maronite Tradition is somewhere between the Western and Eastern Syriac Traditions.
Yes, the preparation was done at the beth diyakon, but behind the soutoro (sanctuary curtain). There was never a “procession” involving the laity. That is a 100% pure, unadulterated, Gemayel-sponsored Novus Ordo neo-latinization that I will never accept.
Yes, the procession was done by the deacon and not the laity.
Where in that schema would you place Gemayel and his sycophants? I’m curious.
BTW, if you’d prefer to do this by private message, please be my guest. 😉
It is without a doubt that the changes that he did were because of VII, as he himself said so. Luckily for us we are still permitted to use the Syriac version which doesn’t have the reductions and alterations that he did in the Arabic text when it was translated from the Syriac text.

One interesting thing about the Syriac Maronite Tradition, is that in Church, if you want to respond in Syriac during the qurbono it is permitted and encouraged. If a community of Syriac Maronites were to ask for a qurbono in Syriac, then the priest can’t refuse them; this is why the qurbono text has both the Syriac and the translation of it next to each other.

push bashlomo,
keefa bar morun
 
brikh safro oH,
brikh safro ou shaino lokh:)
When you speak about practices, are you speaking about the rubric with regards to the participation of the laity, and/or the structure of the qurbono?
Both.
With regards to Jacobitisation I’m working on something that explores the question of Jacobitisation and Latinisation of the Syriac Maronite qurbono.

The Syriac Maronite Tradition is somewhere between the Western and Eastern Syriac Traditions.
Yes, between the 2 but much closer to the Western.
Yes, the procession was done by the deacon and not the laity.
And around the soutoro, similar to how it’s done by the Chaldeans and even the Roum.
It is without a doubt that the changes that he did were because of VII, as he himself said so. Luckily for us we are still permitted to use the Syriac version which doesn’t have the reductions and alterations that he did in the Arabic text when it was translated from the Syriac text.
The Arabic text (and those in other languages translated therefrom) have, in a great many cases, little if any connection to the Syriac original. Plus, if you pay close attention, you will see that even the Syriac text didn’t escape the butcher knife.
One interesting thing about the Syriac Maronite Tradition, is that in Church, if you want to respond in Syriac during the qurbono it is permitted and encouraged. If a community of Syriac Maronites were to ask for a qurbono in Syriac, then the priest can’t refuse them; this is why the qurbono text has both the Syriac and the translation of it next to each other.
AFAIK, it’s primarily the OAM that accommodates in that way. But, BTW, notice that the entire Missal is not bilingual; only the Anaphora.

😉
 
By the way, dzheremi I filled out the forms and sent letters in your signature link.
 
brikh safro ou shaino lokh:)
brikh wabrikh!
The Arabic text (and those in other languages translated therefrom) have, in a great many cases, little if any connection to the Syriac original.
Essentially there are four types of Arabic texts: those that are translated from the Syriac without change, those Syriac text that have been pruned, those newly invented in Arabic, and lastly where the Syriac and Arabic text that are standing side-by-side and aren’t saying the same thing.

From the produced Arabic text, unfortunately, translations are being made into other foreign languages. The issue of translating from Arabic, is first the Arabic text is itself is in a foreign language that can’t and doesn’t reflect the way of understanding of the native Syriac text. So a translation from a foreign language to a foreign language greatly distances you from the Syriac text in: its imagery, its idioms, its way of thinking and reflecting, and its deep spiritual meaning.

Here are a few examples from the 2005 qurbono (Altar edition, Bkerke):
-On p.139 the Arabic of the sedro is a pruned version of the Syriac Text
-On p.140-141 the Syriac hymn after the sedro doesn’t have all of it stanzas as in the source Syriac Text.
-On p.142-143 the Syriac hymn for the reading; the Syriac text hasn’t been faithfully translated into the Arabic text that is to its left. There’s barely a paraphrasing followed by an Accommodation to making it rhyme with the Arabic text that adds wordings not found in the Syriac text to its right.
-On p.142 the Arabic paraphrasing of the Syriac text that starts with “qadeesho wlo moyooto …” is most faithful to Syriac text with a few exceptions that makes use of common expressions found in other Arabic religious text.
-On p.26 of the Anaphora book, the prayer that starts with “shlomo ‘amokh madebHo …”, the Arabic text is a direct translation of the Syriac text.
Plus, if you pay close attention, you will see that even the Syriac text didn’t escape the butcher knife.
It depends which text you are talking about (I want to use the shHimto text as an example):
-The shHimto rabto prior to the Council of Trent – it continued to be used into the 19th century
-The shHimto z’urto after the Council of Trent – it continues to be used into the 20th century
-The shHimto of 1982 that reflects the VII influences – currently has wide use and a fully Arabic translation of it as well as an English translation used in the USA.

Here a few examples:
-Since I’m a member of “Beith Souryoyé Morounoyé” we pray the 7 hours of the “shHimto rabto”
-The OAM and OLM pray the shHimto of 1982. The OAM version is different from the OLM, but shares the same spirit of modification. They will usually pray 2 hours, 3 hours, 4 hours, or the 5 hours. Their shHimto is a big departure from shHimto rabto, but keeps some of the essential structure and some of the prayers. The OAM version is more faithful than the OLM version in some places.
AFAIK, it’s primarily the OAM that accommodates in that way. But, BTW, notice that the entire Missal is not bilingual; only the Anaphora.
😉
That is true, they’re more Syriac oriented. Looking at their 2008 Noviciat book, they put a strong emphasis on understanding the Syriac text and its spirituality.

The OLM is coming around and they have produced some fenqito that have the Syriac in its own section and the Arabic translation in its own section. The full original Syriac text is shown, within the limits of the pruning of the Tekse’s text, this is in contrast to how it was before where the Syriac text would have been mixed with the Arabic and some parts of it would have only appeared in Arabic. Example of this is the 2008 fenqito for Saint Anthony the Great in contrast with the shHimto of 1982.

If you compare the 1992 Bkerke and the 2005 Bkerke edition of the qurbono you’ll see a pattern of correction that is occurring within the structure of the qurbono. I’m hoping that it will continue until the qurbono structure is fully restored and that also the rubric gets adjusted to reflect the authentic Antiochan Syriac Maronite Tradition.

PS. Go over to “Beith Souryoye Morounoye” (beith-morounoye.org/prayers/index.html) and you’ll find the original Syriac text (un-pruned) of the text that are only found in Arabic in the Bkerke edition. Also read the rubrics in Syriac, I thinking you’ll be pleasantly surprised, even though it is the 1992 version and not the 2005 version of the qurbono.

aloho nbarekh lokh,
keefa bar morun
 
human ignorance.
Yes 😦

I wonder if they’ve ever read the CCC where it says: “112 1. Be especially attentive “to the content and unity of the whole Scripture”. Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God’s plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.”, if people where to generalise this concept into the liturgical tradition of the Church, how much less abuses would there be. 😃
 
Speak English! :banghead:
It is funny that you say that, when comparing Churches that are in communion with the Church of Rome against those that aren’t, generally those in communion with the Church of Rome loose their language and their strong sense of identity.

For the Antiochan Syriac Maronite Church, vernacularism has put the Church in a state of crisis. Especially with regards to Arabic vernacularism followed by English vernacularism.
 
brikh wabrikh!
🙂 😉
Since I’m a member of “Beith Souryoyé Morounoyé” we pray the 7 hours of the “shHimto rabto”
One question that comes to mind is which version of the shhimtho is downloadable on the Beth Souryoyé Monrounoyé site? Another question is, is there a plan to add the fenquitho to the site? A third concerns the 1982 versions. I’m familiar with the English-language version (it’s quite an aberration) and I have to assume that the Arabic version reflects the same sort of nonsense. The question is, if a Syriac text of it actually exists, where can it be found?
That is true, they’re more Syriac oriented. Looking at their 2008 Noviciat book, they put a strong emphasis on understanding the Syriac text and its spirituality.

The OLM is coming around and they have produced some fenqito that have the Syriac in its own section and the Arabic translation in its own section. The full original Syriac text is shown, within the limits of the pruning of the Tekse’s text, this is in contrast to how it was before where the Syriac text would have been mixed with the Arabic and some parts of it would have only appeared in Arabic. Example of this is the 2008 fenqito for Saint Anthony the Great in contrast with the shHimto of 1982.
From the absence of any mention of the OMM, I have to assume that they are farther removed from authenticity than even the OLM. Based on what I’ve seen of OMM style, I have the distinct impression that they may have crossed the line into the realm of being unredeemable. Of course the ML has been in that category for quite some time.
If you compare the 1992 Bkerke and the 2005 Bkerke edition of the qurbono you’ll see a pattern of correction that is occurring within the structure of the qurbono. I’m hoping that it will continue until the qurbono structure is fully restored and that also the rubric gets adjusted to reflect the authentic Antiochan Syriac Maronite Tradition.
In comparing the 1992 and 2005 versions, the only thing I can say is that the 2005 presents a major degradation and is indicative of unrelenting progress toward more Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations.
PS. Go over to “Beith Souryoye Morounoye” (beith-morounoye.org/prayers/index.html) and you’ll find the original Syriac text (un-pruned) of the text that are only found in Arabic in the Bkerke edition. Also read the rubrics in Syriac, I thinking you’ll be pleasantly surprised, even though it is the 1992 version and not the 2005 version of the qurbono.
Oh yes, I know the site well, as you may have gathered from my questions above. I’ve yet to figure out the “DeJa” player, but I’ll give that another go. 😉
 
It is funny that you say that, when comparing Churches that are in communion with the Church of Rome against those that aren’t, generally those in communion with the Church of Rome loose their language and their strong sense of identity.

For the Antiochan Syriac Maronite Church, vernacularism has put the Church in a state of crisis. Especially with regards to Arabic vernacularism followed by English vernacularism.
I serve at the altar at our Maronite mission monthly (as often as we have Qurbono) and I wish we did more Syriac - even “itraheim alein” would be better. Right now, the only Syriac is the consecration.
 
It is funny that you say that, when comparing Churches that are in communion with the Church of Rome against those that aren’t, generally those in communion with the Church of Rome loose their language and their strong sense of identity.

For the Antiochan Syriac Maronite Church, vernacularism has put the Church in a state of crisis. Especially with regards to Arabic vernacularism followed by English vernacularism.
Sadly, this is all too true. :mad:
 
Hi Keefabarmorun.

It is great to have both you and Malphono here to enlighten us with your Maronite expertise. 🙂
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Keefabarmorun:
If you compare the 1992 Bkerke and the 2005 Bkerke edition of the qurbono you’ll see a pattern of correction that is occurring within the structure of the qurbono. I’m hoping that it will continue until the qurbono structure is fully restored and that also the rubric gets adjusted to reflect the authentic Antiochan Syriac Maronite Tradition.
I found that it goes both ways, however the general rule is that it is worse. I’ll give you a few examples:

Service of the Word: The Houssoyo’s are shortened

Service of the Eucharist:1)The Anaphoral Prayers are butchered. Look at the Prayer of the imposition of the hand in the Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles : The King of Kings and Lord of lords is removed.
  1. Some of the whispered Prayers are now said aloud eg: The Prayer after the Sanctus prior to the Consecration is traditionally whispered. The Epiklesis is also traditionally whispered, in the 2005 Missal, it is said aloud.
3)The COMMUNION RITE blessing immediately before the Fraction is removed.

These are just off the top of my head.
 
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