Why Do Women Even Want To Be Priests?

[AngryAtheist8]

I am not asking about the theological/official reasons that women cannot be priests. I have already heard them and am frankly not that interested in discussing it anymore.

I am asking why some Catholic women WANT to be priests.

As an outsider it honestly doesn’t look like its worth the effort to me. That in order to remove the patriarchal aspect of Catholicism you would have to change Catholicism so much that it would no longer BE Catholicism.

But some Catholic women obviously feel differently.

So what are the reasons and justifications for women’s ordination?
Why do so many people think that its worth the all this trouble?

 

[ZDHayden]

I honestly think that some people just don’t like being told ‘no.’ Almost like a little kid. (I’ve met some adults who shall remain unnamed who fit this description greatly.) Those who dislike being told that they can’t do something will sometimes try to destroy that which they cannot have so no one else can have it. That is my experience, anyway.

 

[Joe_5859]

I am not asking about the theological/official reasons that women cannot be priests. I have already heard them and am frankly not that interested in discussing it anymore.

I am asking why some Catholic women WANT to be priests.

As an outsider it honestly doesn’t look like its worth the effort to me. That in order to remove the patriarchal aspect of Catholicism you would have to change Catholicism so much that it would no longer BE Catholicism.

But some Catholic women obviously feel differently.

So what are the reasons and justifications for women’s ordination?
Why do so many people think that its worth the all this trouble?

I think most of the Catholics here at CAF will agree with you on this one. I don’t think most of us understand their motivation either.

I recently came across Fr. Greely’s article Why I’m Still a Catholic. Greely dissents from Church teaching on a number of points and seems to have written this article in response to the perennial questions “Why are you still Catholic? Why don’t you just leave?” It doesn’t address this topic specifically, but I think it might help give you a general idea. I found the article to be quite helpful in this regard.

If you peruse some websites, like romancatholicwomenpriests.org, you can see that they really, truly believe that they are in the right and that history and theology are on their side.

If I had to hypothesize in a general way, I might say that some of them were raised Catholic, cannot imagine being anything other than Catholic, and yet they feel that women not being allowed to be priests is a great injustice. They would probably also agree with you that it is a lot of trouble and a lot of effort, but they might say that it was also a lot of trouble and a lot of effort to get rid of slavery and to obtain equal rights for all races. Just because it is difficult doesn’t remove one’s obligation to fight for what is right.

For the record, I firmly believe in and support the Catholic Church’s teaching on the matter. I simply enjoy trying to see things from others’ perspectives. So, while I disagree with advocates of women’s ordination on many, many things, I like to try to place myself in their shoes and understand why they think what they think. So you can take this post for what it’s worth: the musings of an outsider trying to come to an understanding of this issue as you are.

Peace.

 

[rcwhiteh]

I don’t think we’ll ever be rid of this issue until everyone understands that ordination to the sacrificial priesthood is not a right. These “Womenpriests” have somehow got it in their heads that they are being left out of the club and they want to smash the door in and have things run their way, and the want it now.

They’re acting like spoiled children; they need a spanking, and the male bishop who first “ordained” a woman should be hauled before an Inquisition, defrocked, and publicly excommunicated.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

The female priests in the Anglican Church have been uniformly bent on legitimizing homosexuality and other radical causes. Why would female priests ordained in the Catholic Church be any different? The Church is 2,000 years old for a reason. And Anglicanism, barely 400 years old, is falling apart for another reason. How many Catholics are leaving the Church for Anglicanism? How many Anglicans are leaving their Church for Catholicism?

Do the math.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I think most of the Catholics here at CAF will agree with you on this one. I don’t think most of us understand their motivation either.

I recently came across Fr. Greely’s article Why I’m Still a Catholic. Greely dissents from Church teaching on a number of points and seems to have written this article in response to the perennial questions “Why are you still Catholic? Why don’t you just leave?” It doesn’t address this topic specifically, but I think it might help give you a general idea. I found the article to be quite helpful in this regard.

If you peruse some websites, like romancatholicwomenpriests.org, you can see that they really, truly believe that they are in the right and that history and theology are on their side.

If I had to hypothesize in a general way, I might say that some of them were raised Catholic, cannot imagine being anything other than Catholic, and yet they feel that women not being allowed to be priests is a great injustice. They would probably also agree with you that it is a lot of trouble and a lot of effort, but they might say that it was also a lot of trouble and a lot of effort to get rid of slavery and to obtain equal rights for all races. Just because it is difficult doesn’t remove one’s obligation to fight for what is right.

For the record, I firmly believe in and support the Catholic Church’s teaching on the matter. I simply enjoy trying to see things from others’ perspectives. So, while I disagree with advocates of women’s ordination on many, many things, I like to try to place myself in their shoes and understand why they think what they think. So you can take this post for what it’s worth: the musings of an outsider trying to come to an understanding of this issue as you are.

Peace.

I think that I understand their position somewhat.

They think that the priesthood is about power, and correctly state that if women are denied power just because their women that’s sexist and unjust. Catholic priests and theologians (for the most part) deny that its about power and claim that its about service to God and your fellow man (and woman presumably). Nevertheless Catholic priests and theologians say (except for the liberal ones) that lay Catholics must obey their priests and bishops, that its something all good Catholics must do.

Advocates of women priests think that the girls should be able to get in on that action (instead of just the boys). Unfortunately for them its easier to make a convincing case that the Church has historically regarded women as being too stupid, spiritually impure, etc. to be priests than it is to argue that there is something in basic Christianity that gives women the right to be spiritual leaders such as priests.

It seems like it would be easier and more intellectually honest to leave Catholicism and join a religion without such a (I’ll be charitable here) mixed history regarding its treatment of women that now embraces a doctrine of ‘separate but equal’ when it comes to both sexes.

Of course I think that all religions are probably equally false. If I were a woman and I thought that leaving the Church would result in my damnation I would likely have a different reaction.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

They’re acting like spoiled children; they need a spanking, and the male bishop who first “ordained” a woman should be hauled before an Inquisition, defrocked, and publicly excommunicated.

And that kind of condescension is exactly why I would leave the Church if I were one of these women.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

angry

It seems like it would be easier and more intellectually honest to leave Catholicism and join a religion without such a (I’ll be charitable here) mixed history regarding its treatment of women that now embraces a doctrine of ‘separate but equal’ when it comes to both sexes.

I agree. They should leave the Church and join the Anglican Church, which is currently collapsing because of its dedication to radical causes.

Where they will have Anglican lesbian bishops with tiny flocks. How cozy for them!

 

[OvrlapnMagstria]

I am neither a woman, nor am I interested in being a priest, so take my views with whatever salt necessary.

I’d guess that its for the same exact reasons that men want to become priests; they want to give their life to serving God. I know that they have the opportunity to becomes nuns, but this is not at the same level as being a priest. In today’s society, gender equality has become accepted: a woman can hold any job that a man can. There doesn’t seem to be much of a reason why a priest needs to be a man other than tradition and a few lines of scripture (and scripture is always open to interpretation.) Male body parts are just not necessary for the job.

Saying its “not worth the effort” misses the point, as Joe 5859 said. Was abolishing slavery worth the effort? It was a lot of work to change the way plantations were run in the south.

I do wonder why they don’t leave and start their own church, but my guess is that they still want to be loyal to the Pope, and that is not possible outside the Catholic church. Also, it is not easy to start a new church and it is not easy for people to change their self identification. I’m sure they still see a lot of goodness in Catholicism.

They’re acting like spoiled children; they need a spanking…

Statements like these *really *make me wonder why they don’t leave the church in droves.

 

[OvrlapnMagstria]

I agree. They should leave the Church and join the Anglican Church, which is currently collapsing because of its dedication to radical causes.

Where they will have Anglican lesbian bishops with tiny flocks. How cozy for them!

I was under the impression that most Anglicans were in the UK. Religions in the UK have all been dwindling, including Catholicism. I’m not sure if the radical causes are the issue for the Anglican Church as much as a drop in religiosity in general, but I am willing to be corrected.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I am not asking about the theological/official reasons that women cannot be priests. I have already heard them and am frankly not that interested in discussing it anymore.

I am asking why some Catholic women WANT to be priests.

As an outsider it honestly doesn’t look like its worth the effort to me. That in order to remove the patriarchal aspect of Catholicism you would have to change Catholicism so much that it would no longer BE Catholicism.

But some Catholic women obviously feel differently.

So what are the reasons and justifications for women’s ordination?
Why do so many people think that its worth the all this trouble?

They feel its a women’s rights issue. They feel that men-only priesthood is a result of 1st century misogynist views of society. They see priesthood as merely a job that they can do as well and demand equal access to it. Add these modern feminist views to increased spirituality and you get a tainted view of the priesthood and its true purpose.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think that I understand their position somewhat.

They think that the priesthood is about power, and correctly state that if women are denied power just because their women that’s sexist and unjust. Catholic priests and theologians (for the most part) deny that its about power and claim that its about service to God and your fellow man (and woman presumably). Nevertheless Catholic priests and theologians say (except for the liberal ones) that lay Catholics must obey their priests and bishops, that its something all good Catholics must do.

I think that you are on to something in that the perception of priestly power plays a role – and perhaps it is a “power grab” in some respects – but I doubt the proponents of women’s ordination would frame it as such. If I were them, I would probably say that the priesthood as it is now is about power, but it should be and could be about service. That is the unique perspective that women can bring to the table and is why women should be allowed to be priests. They can transform the priesthood from something authoritative and domineering to something that is loving and service-oriented.

That seems to me the most positive way to articulate it.

It is interesting to me. In my experience, the more doctrinally orthodox priests that I know are keenly aware that the priesthood is not about power. It seems to be those who have problems with Catholic teaching that are most prone to turn it into a power struggle.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

They feel its a women’s rights issue. They feel that men-only priesthood is a result of 1st century misogynist views of society. .

Of course even if that’s true it doesn’t mean that patriarchy isn’t a fundamental aspect of Catholicism (I would consider this a mark against Catholicism incidentally).

Remember there’s God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), but no God the Mother.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Of course even if that’s true it doesn’t mean that patriarchy isn’t a fundamental aspect of Catholicism (I would consider this a mark against Catholicism incidentally).

Remember there’s God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), but no God the Mother.

And what does that say to you?

Is God ‘unfair’ for being “Father” and not 'Mother?"

Are human being (creations) somehow ‘more fair’ in that currently, in “western” society there is a relatively ‘new’ concept that women and men are ‘equal in role’ and that ‘any’ role including roles which are ontologically held to be for one sex only should be ‘made’ to include the other sex, on the basis that this new concept is true and the concept that there could be ‘roles’ limited to one sex only are somehow untrue?

IOW: Why should we believe that the role of a Catholic priest is something that would be more ‘fairly’ offered to women as well as men? What makes the current thinking that it would be ‘right’ to have women serve even though the women who want to serve this way and claim it would be ‘serving God’ are **ignoring and defying **that same God who has decreed this particular role ‘male’ only?

And if you claim that it wasn’t ‘really’ God who decreed it, what ‘proof’ do you offer? If there is no way that one can believe except through ‘trust’, then why ‘trust’ anything else in Catholicism? If everything can be ‘corrupted’, then why can’t this current ‘female ordination’ push be a corruption itself? What makes the ‘male-only’ priesthood an obvious ‘corruption’ or wrong, and ‘both sexes’ right and just? What guarantee do we have that our current conceptions are correct and the ‘past’ was somehow lacking?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

*I was under the impression that most Anglicans were in the UK. Religions in the UK have all been dwindling, including Catholicism. I’m not sure if the radical causes are the issue for the Anglican Church as much as a drop in religiosity in general, but I am willing to be corrected. *

Consider this:

google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hAQrI-b6qK4tzRT7PMg_IZWESSYw?docId=e1e3157a9bdd48b28c3c8341407a0dbb

Yes, generally Christianity is losing ground everywhere; but Anglicans are not just losing ground, they are imploding. Have you seen any articles about Catholic bishops converting to Anglicanism?

 

[jmcrae]

I am asking why some Catholic women WANT to be priests.

Job security and the freedom to set your own office hours springs to mind, along with the fact that everyone has to do as you ask, without arguing with you - truly, the priesthood would be a very attractive proposition for someone who didn’t have a lot of material attachments.

It’s true that it’s supposed to be a vocation about service, but what woman isn’t already used to that idea? Mothers, secretaries, airline stewardesses, nurses, and other predominantly female occupations are also all about service. And dedicating oneself to the service of God seems like a higher vocation than dedicating oneself to a man, no matter how well-loved or powerful he may be.

That having been said, it is the Church who decides who will become a priest, and it’s extremely unlikely, based not only on tradition, but also on certain elements of the role itself, that women will ever be chosen for the role.

 

[Roy5]

A few thoughts.

** 1. As someone has suggested already, women are spiritual creatures, probably more so than men, if church attendance is any indication.** Like some prominent women saints, they want to serve God through the church and are denied the most important role - that of being ordained into the priesthood.

** 2. It always has struck me as ironic that Catholicism has such adulation and adoration and veneration of Mary, who surely stands above any and all priests (except for Christ) in church doctrine, yet denies women the priesthood.**

** 3. I forgot where I read this, not once but several times - probably in the Church Fathers - but the argument was made that since by women sin first entered the world (Eve), women were from the outset to be regarded as secondary within the ranks of the church.** They would win their salvation more through child-bearing and being devoted moms as well as loyal transmitters of the faith to their offspring. Some of this was borrowed from Judaism where one of the prayers is: “I thank thee that I am not a woman.”
Paul, you will recall, said that women should be silent in the churches, that they should never teach men, and that they should be subservient to the male leadership.

** 4. Jesus appeared to have a different attitude. **He had women accompany Him on his journeys - radical for that time. He talked with the Samaritan woman at the well, had no problem when Mary sat at his feet, assuming the role of a disciple, and the evidence is that the early Christians did not segregate by sex at worship as Jews had done. And, according to Catholicism, he elevated his mother to such a position that she is now seen as “Queen of the Universe”.

** 5. Catholic women have noted that there are many thousands of women ministers among Protestants, 10,000 alone among United Methodists (who also have women bishops), and many thousands more among Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Episcopalians, Disciples of Christ, etc. They seem to be working out**.

** 6. I attended an ecumenical service awhile back and sat alongside a couple of women. It turned out that they both had been active in a Catholic Church of the community but gradually became alienated by what they regarded as a second-class citizenship within Catholicism. **They had become Episcopalians. They said that they had become increasingly irritated when they saw long lines of men file into churches on EWTN, but no women.

** 7. The demand for the ordination of women, as well as the marriage of clergy, will grow louder and louder until Catholicism faces what Anglicans are now facing.**
**
8.If in Christ there is neither male nor female, why not women priests?**

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Job security and the freedom to set your own office hours springs to mind, along with the fact that everyone has to do as you ask, without arguing with you - truly, the priesthood would be a very attractive proposition for someone who didn’t have a lot of material attachments.

It’s true that it’s supposed to be a vocation about service, but what woman isn’t already used to that idea? Mothers, secretaries, airline stewardesses, nurses, and other predominantly female occupations are also all about service. And dedicating oneself to the service of God seems like a higher vocation than dedicating oneself to a man, no matter how well-loved or powerful he may be.

That having been said, it is the Church who decides who will become a priest, and it’s extremely unlikely, based not only on tradition, but also on certain elements of the role itself, that women will ever be chosen for the role.

True.

Look at the Eucharist. Wheat bread and wine are the valid matter. Now, in countries in Southeast Asia, wouldn’t it make more ‘sense’ to have the Eucharist be rice? After all, isn’t rice the staple there?

And what about people who suffer from celiac disease? Wouldn’t it make sense to have a Eucharist that didn’t have gluten? Why not have ‘flavored’ Eucharists to make them more appealing to the young? And wine? Puh-leese. Should be juice or something like that --more healthy, no?

Ah. . .but Jesus instituted the Eucharist with bread and wine for a reason. No matter how ‘logical’ and even how ‘loving’ we think we are trying to change to something else–we’re wrong if we do.

Same with trying to make the priesthood ‘gender neutral’ (or making marriage the same.) It just won’t work.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

A few thoughts.

1. As someone has suggested already, women are spiritual creatures, probably more so than men, if church attendance is any indication. Like some prominent women saints, they want to serve God through the church and are denied the most important role - that of being ordained into the priesthood. So who says it is both ‘most important’ and only a role? And who is denying? If it is GOD who’s denying it, are you gonna argue with the Big Guy? If it isn’t God. . .where is your PROOF positive that God hasn’t chosen men only?

2. It always has struck me as ironic that Catholicism has such adulation and adoration and veneration of Mary, who surely stands above any and all priests (except for Christ) in church doctrine, yet denies women the priesthood. REPEAT AFTER ME: The Church has NO AUTHORITY to ordain women. The Church has NO AUTHORITY to ordain women.

---

OK. Now, you want to tell me how an institution with NO AUTHORITY TO ORDAIN WOMEN is somehow DENYING THEM?

---

**If I have no authority to make you King of the World, am I DENYING you the position? **

3. I forgot where I read this, not once but several times - probably in the Church Fathers - but the argument was made that since by women sin first entered the world (Eve), women were from the outset to be regarded as secondary within the ranks of the church. They would win their salvation more through child-bearing and being devoted moms as well as loyal transmitters of the faith to their offspring. Some of this was borrowed from Judaism where one of the prayers is: “I thank thee that I am not a woman.”
Paul, you will recall, said that women should be silent in the churches, that they should never teach men, and that they should be subservient to the male leadership.STRAWMAN. Please show where this is not only Church teaching but is presented as the reason that (repeat after me) THE CHURCH HAS NO AUTHORITY TO ORDAIN WOMEN. . .

**4. Jesus appeared to have a different attitude. **He had women accompany Him on his journeys - radical for that time. He talked with the Samaritan woman at the well, had no problem when Mary sat at his feet, assuming the role of a disciple, and the evidence is that the early Christians did not segregate by sex at worship as Jews had done. And, according to Catholicism, he elevated his mother to such a position that she is now seen as “Queen of the Universe”. Please show where Jesus ordained a woman.

5. Catholic women have noted that there are many thousands of women ministers among Protestants, 10,000 alone among United Methodists (who also have women bishops), and many thousands more among Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Episcopalians, Disciples of Christ, etc. They seem to be working out. Really? Aside from the fact that (repeat after me: THE CHURCH HAS NO AUTHORITY TO ORDAIN WOMEN), the fact is that ‘ministers’ are NOT PRIESTS and their ROLE is NOT THE SAME. That goes for MALE ministers as well as female. As to working out. . .there is not enough TIME OR DATA available to make a judgment.

**6. I attended an ecumenical service awhile back and sat alongside a couple of women. It turned out that they both had been active in a Catholic Church of the community but gradually became alienated by what they regarded as a second-class citizenship within Catholicism. **They had become Episcopalians. They said that they had become increasingly irritated when they saw long lines of men file into churches on EWTN, but no women. Please show where ‘hurt feelings’ are a condition which somehow overide that (repeat) THE CHURCH HAS NO AUTHORITY TO ORDAIN WOMEN.

7. The demand for the ordination of women, as well as the marriage of clergy, will grow louder and louder until Catholicism faces what Anglicans are now facing. You mean the failing memberships and the dwindling congregations? And somehow a ‘demand’ can FORCE and override that THE CHURCH HAS NO AUTHORITY TO ORDAIN WOMEN??

8.If in Christ there is neither male nor female, why not women priests?

Well gee. If in Christ there is neither male nor female, why not male mothers? Did God institute two sexes only to make them into some unisex ‘model’? Does cherry picking scripture out of context override that THE CHURCH HAS NO AUTHORITY TO ORDAIN WOMEN?

Finally, it is worthwhile to note that THE CHURCH HAS NO AUTHORITY TO ORDAIN WOMEN. Which kind of makes the idea that it ‘denies’ women a total MOOT POINT. You can’t DENY somebody something WHICH IS NOT IN YOUR POWER TO GIVE THEM!!!

 

[Gift_from_God]

As my mother would say, “who knows”