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AngryAtheist8
Guest
Do you have any daughters?
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karbear
Guest
no, I am am not married yet.
I would like to see you engage the question of equality relating to same-ness. WHy is complimentarity such a bad thing? Or, more to the point, how can we be complimentary if we are the same?
I think that is unkind to women to compare them to men and to say that they are inferior if they do not have the same strengths and skills as men.
I don’t think that you are a woman hater. I don’t think that you really think that I am either, insult aside.
I would like to see you engage the question of equality relating to same-ness. WHy is complimentarity such a bad thing? Or, more to the point, how can we be complimentary if we are the same?
I think that is unkind to women to compare them to men and to say that they are inferior if they do not have the same strengths and skills as men.
I don’t think that you are a woman hater. I don’t think that you really think that I am either, insult aside.
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AngryAtheist8
Guest
The nicest thing I can say about your view of the dynamics of power is that its extremely naive. Here is a slightly different version of the ‘Separate But Equal’ doctrine you embrace:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_but_equal
I dare you to read about it, and then tell me how much you approve.
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AngryAtheist8
Guest
I don’t think that you are a woman hater. I don’t think that you really think that I am either, insult aside.
I am not sure about you to be honest.
I am not sure about you to be honest.
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nordskoven
Guest
When the Woman ate of the forbidden fruit, nothing happened as regards sin and death. Adam ate and, having authority for stewardship over life on earth, sin and death came into the world with the “Sin of Adam.” It’s not the “Sin of Adam and Eve.”
When God cursed Lucifer and his seed with the Woman & Seed, the Divine granted Woman and, through her, her Seed, the authority to crush the Father of Lies and Murder and his minions. This is the Woman & Seed authority. She cannot atone for the Man’s authority vested in and betrayed by Adam. She and her Seed–fulfilled in the Virgin Mary and Jesus Christ–can with us, her “other children” and Christ’s brothers and sisters per Apocalypse 12, prosecute the perpetual enmity with evil by God’s authority.
There are two systems of authority that intertwine yet they are “several” or separate. Adamic authority from God which, after the “Sin of Adam”, included priestly atonement; and Woman & Seed authority. These constitute sacred patrism and sacred matrism with separate authority. Christ acted under both: Priest and Sacrifice; and Seed of the Woman crushing Lucifer and his minions. All on Earth have a role to prosecute and one may not, as the over-achiever on Saturday Night Live last night, dash into the end zone and make that touchdown pass if not on the team. Woman priest is a forensic, legal impossibility. Not her problem to atone for the “Sin of Adam.” Man up.
When God cursed Lucifer and his seed with the Woman & Seed, the Divine granted Woman and, through her, her Seed, the authority to crush the Father of Lies and Murder and his minions. This is the Woman & Seed authority. She cannot atone for the Man’s authority vested in and betrayed by Adam. She and her Seed–fulfilled in the Virgin Mary and Jesus Christ–can with us, her “other children” and Christ’s brothers and sisters per Apocalypse 12, prosecute the perpetual enmity with evil by God’s authority.
There are two systems of authority that intertwine yet they are “several” or separate. Adamic authority from God which, after the “Sin of Adam”, included priestly atonement; and Woman & Seed authority. These constitute sacred patrism and sacred matrism with separate authority. Christ acted under both: Priest and Sacrifice; and Seed of the Woman crushing Lucifer and his minions. All on Earth have a role to prosecute and one may not, as the over-achiever on Saturday Night Live last night, dash into the end zone and make that touchdown pass if not on the team. Woman priest is a forensic, legal impossibility. Not her problem to atone for the “Sin of Adam.” Man up.
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AngryAtheist8
Guest
Interesting.
Virtually all the arguments against women’s ordination I have heard fall into 2 categories.
1)God instituted an all male priesthood, and who are we to question Him? (appeal to authority argument).
2)Women are too weak, spiritually impure, etc. to be priests (the women are inferior argument).
But I don’t think that I have ever heard this one before. It doesn’t fit easily into categories one or two.
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karbear
Guest
There is evil in the world, and the world is full of horror stories. The phrase “separate but equal” was used to justify slavery. I don’t see the connection between slavery and christian marriage. Phrases can be used to justify lots of things. But marriage is a sacrament that brings grace and a covenant to love. Are you trying to say that if the sexes are separate but equal in any way, then women’s rights will be trampled on? Treatment of women, and civility in general, is a direct result of the religion and value system of a society. It is a reflection of the character of that society. Mere acceptance of the fact of complimentarity does not lead to a sharia law type system. An acceptance of the interdependence of the sexes is a more accurate way of looking at this than the classification of “separate but equal” Equal really needs to be defined, in context. An acceptance of the interdependence of the sexes in no way leads to the marginalization and mistreament of either sex. It leads to strong family units. The insistence that the sexes are independent, has led to weakened family units and the sexual objectification of women. I realize that the femminist cry is that dependence in marriage leads to objectification. Objectification in what way? I argue the opposite and place the burden of proof on those who claim this.
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larkin31
Guest
Then let women have authority in the church. Put your “authority” where your mouth is.
And then we’ll see how people respond to having a confident female religious boss.
I, for one, have personally witnessed several female ministers of tremendous leadership, faith, and authority. It came naturally to them, as naturally as it does to the best men.
The patriarchal set-up of the ancient church arose directly from the patriarchal Jewish system of faith and laws. Jesus overturned some aspects of Jewish culture, but not the gender balance of authority.
There is no rational objection to female Christian leadership except a few Biblical precepts to the contrary.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Well, #1 is either something that happened, or it didn’t. It isn’t simply an argument to authority. I mean, if God did institute an all-made priesthood, then He instituted it, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with ‘and who are we to question Him?’
If God instituted an all-male priesthood, then He did so, and (God being all just) then He had sufficient reason to do so.
And my saying this is not an ‘appeal to authority’ but a statement of fact, if indeed this is the case.
If God did not institute an all-male priesthood, then (God being all-just) He would have to make it ‘clear’ that He did not do so. In fact, if He did not do that, He would be unfair. And by making it ‘clear’, I don’t mean that He had to appear on Meet The Press or send Moses down or anything. If God did not institute an all-male priesthood, His desires would have been clear from the beginning. God does not have a moral absolute that ‘works’ for one sex (and not the other), or for one culture (but not another), or in one ‘era’ but not another.
There is no authentic teaching in history that we can find which teaches other than an ‘all-male priesthood’ instituted by God. . .but suddenly in AD 2010 we have people who aren’t coming out saying, “Look, God really meant for women priests, and here is the example of the Church Fathers supporting this in AD 200, and here is documentation from the Council of X which permits the ordination of a specific woman, and here are works from the great theologians which advocate this”. . .No, what we have are people saying, "it’s AD 2010 and I don’t think it’s FAIR that women can’t be priests, the Church NEEDS TO CHANGE AND LET THEM HAVE WHAT THEY WANT".
So is this about women being priests because it is God’s own desire, because it is part of His plan, because it’s something which the Spirit teaches and is true and good?
OR is this about women being priests because it is the desire of a mouthy minority, totally unrelated to any desire to serve God or obey Him, because it’s seen as ‘getting power’?
If it’s about serving God, how come I see so little evidence of any OBEDIENCE TO GOD from the screamers and stampers, and so much nastiness, so much self-‘justification’, so much ‘wah wah you’re unfair’, so much of a play to EMOTIONS, PRIDE, ANGER, HATRED, and othe evils?
**Where are the “women priest wannabes” who are living their lives in compliance with the Church’s teachings, staunchly obedient to each and every one, who ‘ask’ God for what they desire but always end with 'GOD’s will, not mine, be done?" Where are they?? **
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karbear
Guest
I am not sure about you to be honest.
Oops misread that. Wow, I gave you too much credit.
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larkin31
Guest
Jesus chose Peter, but did not say that it was because he was male.
Most likely, Jesus’s most close followers were male, but certainly there were female followers too. It is likely that there were no female “disciples” in the inner circle, but of this we can’t be certain.
Paul establishes most of Christianity’s gender divisions, not “God.” I consider Paul to be a very sexually repressed and troubled figure. His teachings (attributed to him) are some of the most beautiful and some of the most repressive in scripture. My protestant church took his comments on gender and authority as cultural anachronisms of his day (and even then he would have been considered on the rigid side) and not helpful to the “calling” of faith and leadership that God makes to BOTH genders.
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larkin31
Guest
Offering ONLY these two choices is like my asking,
Are you ignorant of God’s plan?
OR are you just another mouthy Catholic making churlish accusations toward women that you do not understand?
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AngryAtheist8
Guest
Its relevant because its another system where the two opposite sides are supposed to be equal, but one side has all the power and privilege. However, Separate But Equal (at least in that context) is a lie.
When one side has all the power they quite naturally use it for their own benefit. If women have no authority in society or the home (and authority over little children doesn’t count if it can easily be negated by the other adult involved) then men will take advantage of them.
This truth is even compatible with Catholic doctrine (as illustrated below).
We are all selfish sinful creatures, so if men are given absolute power (over the women in their lives) of course they will abuse it.
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the_phoenix
Guest
Mary did. “And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word.”
~~ Luke 1:38
Now all generations call her Blessed.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
I’m not ignorant, AND as a woman myself I hardly think you can accuse me of a lack of understanding toward my own sex, thank you VERY much.
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larkin31
Guest
Then I have made my point exactly. And thanks for highlighting it.
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AngryAtheist8
Guest
I find it amusing how you feel the need to disagree with me even when I am saying something supportive towards your position. It shows you really care
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Oh sug, it’s not all about you.I find it amusing how you feel the need to disagree with me even when I am saying something supportive towards your position. It shows you really care
So you’re 'somewhat supportive"? That is encouraging.
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AngryAtheist8
Guest
Not exactly.Oh sug, it’s not all about you.
I enjoy playing Devil’s Advocate sometimes in threads, especially when people arguing for the same position that I am say something outrageous or simply untrue.
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4Horsemen
Guest
First of all, I don’t know any women who want to be priests, but the ones I heard about usually belong to some liberal convent and are dissidents in the Church. Many also are pro-aborts and pro “same-sex marriage” (an oxymoron, if there ever was one!)
Of course the media hits on anything Catholic and tries to slam the Church. Last July, the Church was the subject of a critical editorial in the New York Times along with pieces in response on both priestly sexual abuse and the ordination of women. But why is there never any columns treating Orthodox Jewish and Muslim strictures like those against eating pork or segregating the sexes in many settings. What about banning sex during daylight hours during Ramadan? Then there’s the hajib. Isn’t that a symbol of subjugation? The media is quiet and respectful when it comes to other religions, but when it comes to Catholicism’s proscriptioon of women clergy, the media starts the bashing party.
Of course the media hits on anything Catholic and tries to slam the Church. Last July, the Church was the subject of a critical editorial in the New York Times along with pieces in response on both priestly sexual abuse and the ordination of women. But why is there never any columns treating Orthodox Jewish and Muslim strictures like those against eating pork or segregating the sexes in many settings. What about banning sex during daylight hours during Ramadan? Then there’s the hajib. Isn’t that a symbol of subjugation? The media is quiet and respectful when it comes to other religions, but when it comes to Catholicism’s proscriptioon of women clergy, the media starts the bashing party.
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