Why do women have abortions?

[st_lucy]

No, but the blood, oxygen, and nutrients being pumped into the fetus are.

So advocating that mothers of all children have a right to abort (kill) any of their live children? They are after all providing the the means of basic survival to the child in questions.

By the way the child has his own blood separate from his mothers. Again invest in the science books.

 

[Isambard]

Umm where in there where do you get the idea that a baby growing in his mothers tummy is a parasitic twin?

An arguement against a position I never advocated? Mr. Strawman, we meet again.

You are aware that this “parasitic twin” has his own DNA separate from his mothers and unlike any other in the world.

Odd. I could’ve sworn I never said it was the same as its mother. Though it is sometimes identical to the autosite twin.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_twin

Do yourself a favor and brush up on your elementary science.

I suggest you brush up on your reading comprehension. Its very embaressing to be chasing windmills.

 

[Isambard]

So advocating that mothers of all children have a right to abort (kill) any of their live children?

Hello Mr. Non-sequiter

They are after all providing the the means of basic survival to the child in questions.

Horrible eh? I mean this is why giving up your child to children services is totally illegal

By the way the child has his own blood separate from his mothers. Again invest in the science books.

Not until 21 weeks. I really suggest you take your own advice.

 

[Chatty_Cathy]

" You don’t kill the fetus maliciously thru abortion either. Only thru denying the fetus access to your body. Ditto for me not donating my organs."

So, if someone stabbed you and cut the aorta they wouldn’t be killing you, just cutting of your blood supply to the heart. Same thing if you shot someone, they didn’t do the killing. The bullet did it. That means they should be found guilty of murder, only assult. Makes just as much logic.

Sorry, once you’ve “done the deed” you’ve given away part of yourself into some kind of relationship. You no longer have 100% of your say in what’s going on.

By the way did you know the word “fetus” is greek for baby? “kill the fetus” is “kill a baby”.

 

[Isambard]

" You don’t kill the fetus maliciously thru abortion either. Only thru denying the fetus access to your body. Ditto for me not donating my organs."

So, if someone stabbed you and cut the aorta they wouldn’t be killing you, just cutting of your blood supply to the heart. Same thing if you shot someone, they didn’t do the killing. The bullet did it. That means they should be found guilty of murder, only assult. Makes just as much logic.

Non-sequiter. In my examples (abortion, abstaining from organ donation, removing a parasitic twin or a person using your liver), one person is completely independant of the other, while the second party is completely dependant. You deny access, they die, but forcing you to grant access would be a personal rights violation.

In your example, the stabber wouldnt be denying me acces to his/her resources. Instead s/he’d be denying me from my own resources as I am independant.

" Sorry, once you’ve “done the deed” you’ve given away part of yourself into some kind of relationship. You no longer have 100% of your say in what’s going on.

How does this fit into rape victems, or do believe abortion is fine in such situtations?

" By the way did you know the word “fetus” is greek for baby? “kill the fetus” is “kill a baby”.

Thats a nice red herring.

 

[fix]

So you’re in favour of mandatory organ harvesting?

How would you arrive at that conclusion? The baby is intended to grow in the mother. By directly assaulting the baby you intend death.

By not harvesting organs you are not directly intending anything.

No, but the blood, oxygen, and nutrients being pumped into the fetus are.

Again, the baby is growing as designed. Where do you get the notion the mother is entitled to kill her baby?

 

[tobinatorstark]

This is something that I have been wondering myself. I had a woman that used to be my friend lie to me to get the money for an abortion once. I put a lot of sadness in my heart in what she did and that I was lied to about what the money loaned her was really used for

 

[Swan]

You don’t kill the fetus maliciously thru abortion either. Only thru denying the fetus access to your body. Ditto for me not donating my organs.

Not at all. Your McDonald’s example involves choice on the part of the person having the heart attack.

For both people needing organs, and fetuses, its luck of the draw for them. You cant choose to be conceived and most people don’t choose to need organs.

Ah, how about a helping hand then? Would you be fine with a government program to harvest your organs, and mandatory donation of blood and bone marrow?

Umm no. They simply wish to stop granting access of their body. Its really the same as stopping access of one’s body to a parasitic twin, or if while under the knife, doctors hooked your liver up to someone else’s circulatory system w/o your consent. This is doubly true among women who have been raped and become pregnant.

First, I want to say that I agree with you. The forced ogran donation is a good point, IMO.

Second, I had my abortion when I was 27. I’m bipolar. I was suicidally depressed (I’ve had serious depression issues since before puberty). I was also physically ill and was losing weight. I was unemployed, broke, and the father deserted me (I was seriously codependent and when he suggested I get pregnant, I did. I’ve used birth control since I became sexuall active and have never had it fail). Had a legal, safe, affordable abortion not been available, I may well have committed suicide.

I think it does women a disservice to assume that they have abortions glibly, with no serious consideration to their decision. Some probably do, but I doubt it’s the majority. I’ve known women who had abortions for various reasons, all serious. Only the woman herself knows her physical and mental state, not to mention her financial and other considerations. We are molded by our experiences - no one knows the heart of another. Carrying a baby to term is not always possible - it wasn’t in my case. IMO, the only person qualified to make such a decision is the woman herself. The born simply have to take precedence over the unborn, IMO.

 

[Isambard]

How would you arrive at that conclusion? The baby is intended to grow in the mother. By directly assaulting the baby you intend death.

Directly assaulting? Not exactly. You’ve simply cut off access (at least in first and second trimester abortions). Intention is another strange word to use. As a christian, it should be your intentions as a proxy of God’s will to help others. You’re “intending” death of others by not being an organ doner.

By not harvesting organs you are not directly intending anything.

Not exactly. You know what the conseuqence of your refusal is. By your own logic, you’ve “intended” the deaths of people who won’t have access to your body.

Again, the baby is growing as designed. Where do you get the notion the mother is entitled to kill her baby?

Same place where its generally accepted to “kill” a parasitic twin.

 

[mapleoak]

You don’t kill the fetus maliciously thru abortion either. Only thru denying the fetus access to your body. Ditto for me not donating my organs.

The poster here is tragically misinformed and ignorant about abortion. Abortion is murder, not through neglect, but through a direct and violent butchering process. It involves one or a combination of the following. Stabbing the person brain with a blunt object through the skull, brutally tearing ones limbs off using forceps or a saw, injecting a cardiosuppressant in your heart to stop it from beating, or scalding your skin off alive with brine. If abortion was as simple as neglect, it is murder nevertheless, however neglect is far from truth. Brainwashing by the pro-abortion camp and planned parenthood through feel good (read women are stupid) rhetoric is rampant.

 

[mapleoak]

Not until 21 weeks. I really suggest you take your own advice.

Sorry, a baby never shares its mother’s blood. Neither on nor before 21 weeks nor anytime thereafter.

 

[fix]

Directly assaulting? Not exactly. You’ve simply cut off access (at least in first and second trimester abortions). Intention is another strange word to use. As a christian, it should be your intentions as a proxy of God’s will to help others. You’re “intending” death of others by not being an organ doner.

Not exactly. You know what the conseuqence of your refusal is. By your own logic, you’ve “intended” the deaths of people who won’t have access to your body.

Same place where its generally accepted to “kill” a parasitic twin.

Your analogy is greatly flawed. Not donating organs is not the proximate cause of any person’s death. It may be meritorious to donate organs but that is significantly different than directly intending and causing the death of an innocent person.

Kinda like saying not donating blood is morally the same as electrocuting someone on purpose. Absurd.

 

[Chatty_Cathy]

“Thats a nice red herring”.

It’s not a red herring if it’s the truth. I’ll give you rape because it’s less then 3% of the current genocide rate.

Talk about a a Red herring - “I mean this is why giving up your child to children services is totally illegal” Says who? Most states have safe havens laws where a birth mother can turn the child over to a hospital, police or fire station with no questions asked. If your state doesn’t, why are to working to keep children safe?

“one person is completely independant of the other, while the second party is completely dependant. You deny access, they die, but forcing you to grant access would be a personal rights violation”.

In late term, partial birth abortions, the baby is viable outside of the mother’s body. So how is this differant? The baby is being stabbed them put back in the body to pass out later. This person has been denied a basic constitutional right to live. Let’s kill them instead of trying to make sure all children are safe and cared for? How do you feel about Sudan and Bangledash?

In addition, how do rate Individual Rights in the scale of rights? Does access trump life? When does a personal right of access deny another person’s right to live? I remember something in the 10 commandments about not killing but I don’t remember anything about trespassing? Oh, wait, that’s in the Lord’s Prayer. “And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” It’s not listed as a thou shalt.

 

[a_cermak]

I do think that the women who get abortions are often stereotyped into a crude Cruella DeVille type character. If the norm for an abortion receiver is a woman who already has children can’t you imagine some heart rending possibilities of women who are human and not cruel and grasping? Maybe she has 2 children and is living on a small pay check and knows she will be unable to afford day care to keep her job and so fears that her existing children and her will wind up homeless. In another case, maybe she is currently living with the father but he doesn’t want a child and so threatens to kick her and her other children out again rendering them homeless. Unless she has a lawyer ($$$) she may be unaware that she and her child is entitled to support, or if the father is a ne’er-do-well, the support would be more hypothetical than real anyway. These are women living at the margins, doing the best they can for the children they already have.

The Guttmacher institute has some interesting stats:

• Fifty percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25: Women aged 20–24 obtain 33% of all abortions, and teenagers obtain 17%.

• Thirty-seven percent of abortions occur to black women, 34% to non-Hispanic white women, 22% to Hispanic women and 8% to women of other races.**

• Forty-three percent of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 27% as Catholic.

• Women who have never married obtain two-thirds of all abortions.

• About 60% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children.

• The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women). This is partly because the rate of unintended pregnancies among poor women (below 100% of poverty) is nearly four times that of women above 200% of poverty* (112 vs. 29 per 1,000 women)

• The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.

 

[mapleoak]

I do think that the women who get abortions are often stereotyped into a crude Cruella DeVille type character. If the norm for an abortion receiver is a woman who already has children can’t you imagine some heart rending possibilities of women who are human and not cruel and grasping? Maybe she has 2 children and is living on a small pay check and knows she will be unable to afford day care to keep her job and so fears that her existing children and her will wind up homeless. In another case, maybe she is currently living with the father but he doesn’t want a child and so threatens to kick her and her other children out again rendering them homeless. Unless she has a lawyer ($$$) she may be unaware that she and her child is entitled to support, or if the father is a ne’er-do-well, the support would be more hypothetical than real anyway. These are women living at the margins, doing the best they can for the children they already have.

The Guttmacher institute has some interesting stats:

• Fifty percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25: Women aged 20–24 obtain 33% of all abortions, and teenagers obtain 17%.

• Thirty-seven percent of abortions occur to black women, 34% to non-Hispanic white women, 22% to Hispanic women and 8% to women of other races.**

• Forty-three percent of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 27% as Catholic.

• Women who have never married obtain two-thirds of all abortions.

• About 60% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children.

• The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women). This is partly because the rate of unintended pregnancies among poor women (below 100% of poverty) is nearly four times that of women above 200% of poverty* (112 vs. 29 per 1,000 women)

• The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.

We could say the same types of things and make the same justifications for anyone who commits murder. Not everyone that commits murder does so simply because they are ‘evil to the core’. We can find pressing motives for just about any murder that is not a pre-medidated murder for the sake of murder. Abortion is actually especially henious because it is murder of the most innocent of people, and it is a crime driven by lust for profit (murder inc.). Culpability for murder, whether it be abortion or homicide, should not be treated to any less of degree, just because the victims are young.

 

[colliric]

The baby is growing where it is intended to grow. By “denying access” one is directly intending death.

The baby is growing as intended. They are not the property of the mother.

yep.

 

[Isambard]

The poster here is tragically misinformed and ignorant about abortion. Abortion is murder,

I take it you don’t know what murder means.
Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: \ˈmər-dər\
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Anglo-French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
Date: before 12th century
1: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
2 a: something very difficult or dangerous b: something outrageous or blameworthy
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/murder

not through neglect, but through a direct and violent butchering process. It involves one or a combination of the following. Stabbing the person brain with a blunt object through the skull, brutally tearing ones limbs off using forceps or a saw, injecting a cardiosuppressant in your heart to stop it from beating, or scalding your skin off alive with brine.

Yep, care to guess which of those methods are generally only used for thirf trimester abortions? (which I have already given my opnion about?). Here’s a hint, all of them.

Your attempt at misleading information has been noted. Here are the other methods
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#Surgical
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_abortion

If abortion was as simple as neglect, it is murder nevertheless,

As demonstrated earlier, this is a lie. You’ve had to change the definition to fit your claim.

however neglect is far from truth. Brainwashing by the pro-abortion camp and planned parenthood through feel good (read women are stupid) rhetoric is rampant.

I see you’ve started projecting. Next time, I suggest you reseach what your talking about to avoid sounding ignorant.

 

[Isambard]

Your analogy is greatly flawed. Not donating organs is not the proximate cause of any person’s death. It may be meritorious to donate organs but that is significantly different than directly intending and causing the death of an innocent person.

You would be if you physically removed the tubing a person using your body for dialasis.

Kinda like saying not donating blood is morally the same as electrocuting someone on purpose. Absurd.

Or equating abortion to murder…

 

[Isambard]

“Thats a nice red herring”.

It’s not a red herring if it’s the truth.

Main Entry: red herring
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
1: a herring cured by salting and slow smoking to a dark brown color
2[from the practice of drawing a red herring across a trail to confuse hunting dogs] :** something that distracts attention from the real issue**
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/redherring

Your inclusion of the greek origins of the word fetus is a textbook example.

I’ll give you rape because it’s less then 3% of the current genocide rate.

Main Entry: geno·cide
Pronunciation: \ˈje-nə-ˌsīd\
Function: noun
Date: 1944
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
— geno·cid·al \ˌje-nə-ˈsī-dəl\ adjective

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genocide

I can see you don’t know what genocide means either.

Talk about a a Red herring - “I mean this is why giving up your child to children services is totally illegal” Says who? Most states have safe havens laws where a birth mother can turn the child over to a hospital, police or fire station with no questions asked. If your state doesn’t, why are to working to keep children safe?

Aside from that not being a red herring (but then you’ve demonstrated you dont know what it means so thats okay), my statement was clearly sarcasim and arguement from contradiction of your earlier post.

“one person is completely independant of the other, while the second party is completely dependant. You deny access, they die, but forcing you to grant access would be a personal rights violation”.

In late term, partial birth abortions, the baby is viable outside of the mother’s body. So how is this differant? The baby is being stabbed them put back in the body to pass out later. This person has been denied a basic constitutional right to live. Let’s kill them instead of trying to make sure all children are safe and cared for?

It isn’t. Which is why Im against third trimester abortions as Ive stated previously.

"How do you feel about Sudan and Bangledash?

What about those two countries?

"In addition, how do rate Individual Rights in the scale of rights? Does access trump life? When does a personal right of access deny another person’s right to live? I remember something in the 10 commandments about not killing but I don’t remember anything about trespassing? Oh, wait, that’s in the Lord’s Prayer. “And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” It’s not listed as a thou shalt.

I would hope rights trump life. Else doctors dont need to ask you to remove your organs next time you go under the knife.

 

[Isambard]

Sorry, a baby never shares its mother’s blood. Neither on nor before 21 weeks nor anytime thereafter.

Hmm. You seem to be correct, while I was thinking of something else. My apologeses.