"Why do you believe in God?"

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That there was a historic Christ there is very little doubt, but the evidence of his divinity is anything but overwhelming. Just because four men chose to write about him, in VERY different testament, does not deify him or prove the existence of his father. So far as the father there is no evidence that would be accepted into a court of law.

The whole thing boils down, as it always has, to an issue of faith. The writings of “saints”, personal revelations, etc., do not count among evidence. They are enhancements for those who already believe.
There are many reasons to take the Gospel accounts, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John as true. I have been reading a fantastic book atm called “Reason for Belief” by Timothy Keller, I would just like to paraphrase a small piece of it here for you.

The content is far too counterproductive for the Gospels to be Legends.

The working theory for many people today is that the Gospels were written by the leaders of the early church to promote their policies, consolidate their power, and build their movement. That theory does not fit at all with what we actually find in the Gospels.

If this view were correct, we would expect to see many places in the Gospels where Jesus takes sides in debates that were going on in the early Church. That is how (It’s reasoned) the Gospels were shaped by Christian leaders to support their party. But we don’t find this. We know, for example, that one of the great controversies in the earliest Church was that some believed that Gentile Christians should be circumcised. In light of that great conflict, it’s remarkable that nowhere in the Gospel accounts does Jesus say anything about circumcision. The most likely reason Jesus is silent about circumcision is that the early Church did not feel free to fabricate things and put words in Jesus’ mouth that he didn’t say.

Why would the leaders of the early Christian movement have made up the story of the crucifixion if it didn’t happen? Any listener of the Gospel in either Greek or Jewish culture would have automatically suspected that anyone who had been crucified was a criminal, regardless of what the speaker said to the contrary.

Why would any Christian make up the account of Jesus asking God in the garden of Gethsemane if he could get out of his mission? Or why ever make up the part on the cross when Jesus cries out that God had abandoned him? These things would have only offended or deeply confused first-century prospective converts. They would have concluded that Jesus was weak and failing his God.

Why invent women as the first witnesses of the resurrection in a society where women were assigned such low status that their testimony was not admissible evidence in court? It would have made far more sense (If you were inventing the tale) to have male pillars of the community present as witnesses when Jesus came out of the tomb. The only plausible reason that all of these incidents would have been included in these accounts is that they actually happened.

The timing is far too early for the Gospels to be Legends.

The canonical Gospels were written at the very most forty to sixty years after Jesus’ death. Paul’s letters, written just fifteen to twenty-five years after the death of Jesus, provide an outline of all the events of Jesus’ life found in the Gospels, his miracles, claims, crucifixion and resurrection.

This means that the Biblical accounts of Jesus’ life were circulating within the lifetimes of hundreds who had been present at the events of his ministry. The Gospel author Luke claims that he got his account of Jesus’ life from eyewitnesses who were still alive (Luke 1:1-4). At the time the Gospels were written there were still numerous well-known living eyewitnesses to Jesus’ teaching and life events.

They had committed them to memory and they remained active in the public life of the Churches throughout their lifetimes, serving as ongoing sources and guarantors of the truth of those accounts. The Gospel writers named their eyewitness sources within the text to assure readers of their accounts’ authenticity.

Mark, for example, says that the man who helped Jesus carry hiss cross to Calvary “was the father of Alexander and Rufus” (Mark 15:21). There is no reason for the author to include such names unless the readers know or could have access to them. Mark is saying, “Alexander and Rufus vouch for the truth I am telling you if you want to ask them.” Paul also appeals to readers to check with living eyewitnesses if they want to establish the truth of what he is saying about the events of Jesus’ life (1 Corinthians 15:1-6). Paul refers to a body of five hundred eyewitnesses who saw the risen Christ at once. You can’t write that in a document designed for public reading unless there really were surviving eyewitnesses whose testimony agreed and who could confirm what the author had said.

All this decisively refutes the idea that the gospels were anonymous, collective, evolving oral traditions. Instead they were oral histories taken down from the mouths of the living eyewitnesses who preserved the words and deeds of Jesus in great detail.

There is much more in Timothy Keller’s book “Reason for Belief” if you are interested, I have just paraphrased a very small section of it.

The Gospel writers went to great lengths to include the names of people, places and things in order to vouch for their authenticity, in nearly every teaching of Jesus there is record of a person or place. The History ties too well into the Gospel accounts for them to be legends or exaggerated/embellished events.

Even the teachings on the Eucharist, which they knew would be hard for people to accept. 59 He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum. (John 6:59)

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
I don’t deny the possibility of the existence of higher beings or being, are you familiar with Russel’s teapot? You cannot ask a disbeliever to disprove the physical existence of any higher being whatever imaginable this being could be, the only way to disprove it is by disproving the religious personal god(s) which were the result of a historical-social evolution of specific civilizations and where the stories of their books contradict with each others, with common sense, reality, science and ethics.
Disproving the existence of a Russell’s teapot is theoretically possible. Disproving the existence of God is impossible. Russell knew he could not logically prove atheism. That is why he persisted in calling himself an agnostic, even though at heart he was an atheist.

The atheist can object to the existence of God only because he demands proof that he knows will never be possible as long as he does not want it to possible. As I’ve said so many times in this forum, the atheist does not want God to exist. So his wish is father to his fact. Offer him any proof you like, he has an out. Though God is always defined as a supernatural being, he insists on seeing God up close and personal. Yet, even having done so, he will only allow that he was deceived by the hocus pocus of priests, or that he must have been under the influence of a drug, or that he was coerced by his wife to get himself baptized, or that the gift he asked from God UPS did not deliver.

Agnosticism is a decision to refuse to acknowledge God. It is atheism’s twin brother.
 
I don’t deny the possibility of the existence of higher beings or being, are you familiar with Russel’s teapot? You cannot ask a disbeliever to disprove the physical existence of any higher being whatever imaginable this being could be, the only way to disprove it is by disproving the religious personal god(s) which were the result of a historical-social evolution of specific civilizations and where the stories of their books contradict with each others, with common sense, reality, science and ethics.
In his book The Perennial Philosophy Aldous Huxley explains in great detail how the world religions share the same fundamental beliefs, values and virtues.
 
I always reply with “Which god?”
To which I always reply, the one who loves more than all the others put together.

Show me a god who supposedly loved more than Jesus loves us.

“No greater love has a man than this: that he lay down his life for a friend.”

Then he practiced what he preached.
 
To which I always reply, the one who loves more than all the others put together.

Show me a god who supposedly loved more than Jesus loves us.

“No greater love has a man than this: that he lay down his life for a friend.”

Then he practiced what he preached.
👍 As Jesus said, “By their fruits you shall know them”.

A very happy New Year, Charlie!
 
Maybe you are too impressed by those billions of years? Since He exists outside of time, the Creator who exists through all eternity would not likely be so impressed.

But you haven’t answered my question.

**Why go to the bother of creating a vast universe, then turn your back on it?

This defies logic and sugests a sloppy mind rather than an omniscient intellect that acts with a purpose**.
To me it represents a curious, rather than a controlling mind. It show patience, perseverance, and possibly even a developing intelligence. Since, as you point out, time is irrelevant to an eternal force.

Creating something where you already know the outcome seems very dull to me…especially if my plan involves sentient beings.
 
Disproving the existence of a Russell’s teapot is theoretically possible. Disproving the existence of God is impossible. Russell knew he could not logically prove atheism. That is why he persisted in calling himself an agnostic, even though at heart he was an atheist.
You have told us that the existence of Russell’s teapot is a falsifiable claim and the existence of god is an unfalsifiable claim. Since existence (for a teapot or a god) is an empirical claim then falsifiability is important.
The atheist can object to the existence of God only because he demands proof that he knows will never be possible as long as he does not want it to possible. As I’ve said so many times in this forum, the atheist does not want God to exist. So his wish is father to his fact. Offer him any proof you like, he has an out. Though God is always defined as a supernatural being, he insists on seeing God up close and personal. Yet, even having done so, he will only allow that he was deceived by the hocus pocus of priests, or that he must have been under the influence of a drug, or that he was coerced by his wife to get himself baptized, or that the gift he asked from God UPS did not deliver.
You’ve claimed that outside of the natural world lies a supernatural world. What is your evidence for the existence of this supernatural world? Again you are making an empirical claim (existence) so the claim must be falsifiable.
Agnosticism is a decision to refuse to acknowledge God. It is atheism’s twin brother.
Your definitions are a bit off. The root of agnosticism is “gnostic” which means knowledge. The root of atheism is theism which relates to a belief about god. Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. Agnostic means “without knowledge” (usually in relation to the existence of a claimed god.) Atheist means without belief that the god being proposed exists.
 
Creating something where you already know the outcome seems very dull to me…especially if my plan involves sentient beings.
Tell that to a playwright or a novelist. In the case of sentient people God creates, they certainly don’t view their Creator as dull. They view Him as extremely interesting … even when they view Him as an object of their hatred or their fear.
 
You’ve claimed that outside of the natural world lies a supernatural world. What is your evidence for the existence of this supernatural world? Again you are making an empirical claim (existence) so the claim must be falsifiable.

Your definitions are a bit off. The root of agnosticism is “gnostic” which means knowledge. The root of atheism is theism which relates to a belief about god. Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. Agnostic means “without knowledge” (usually in relation to the existence of a claimed god.) Atheist means without belief that the god being proposed exists.
You don’t understand the nature of empirical evidence. Look it up in a dictionary of philosophy. God does not exist on a petri dish nor can he be seen through a telescope.

As to the difference between atheist and agnostic, you are splitting the proverbial hair.

Both the atheist and the agnostic live without God.

There is barely a nickel’s worth of difference between them.
 
You don’t understand the nature of empirical evidence. Look it up in a dictionary of philosophy. God does not exist on a petri dish nor can he be seen through a telescope.
Empirical evidence is information that is acquired by observation or experimentation. Where can I observe God? What experiment can I do that will result in empirical evidence for God? Can you can tell me how to observe or show me the experiments that will demonstrate the existence of a supernatural realm?
As to the difference between atheist and agnostic, you are splitting the proverbial hair.

Both the atheist and the agnostic live without God.

There is barely a nickel’s worth of difference between them.
For atheism and agnosticism to be nearly the same, then one must view knowledge and faith to be nearly the same. I take it that you believe that God exists. Do you know that God exists?
 
How do you answer a question like that?
To begin with, experience. Once I’d had certain experiences, I then went looking for intellectual confirmation, but the experience came first.

There was a time when I was an atheist. Some contributing reasons for this were the teaching of evolution in school, coming from a non-religious background, persecution at home by my own father (where the hell was God while this all this was going on?), the evil that was so evident in the world and so on. I remember feeling pleased for example when the communist Vietnamese finally did something about Pol Pot. Nobody else had the political or military guts.

And of course atheism meant that I thought I could do whatever I wanted, or if you like, indulge in wishful thinking and it’s associated actions.

I once asked my father if he believed in God. He gave a couple of responses. The first referred to the Second World War in which he fought, commenting that “If anyone knew about all the atrocities that were happening, God did, and He didn’t do a thing!”

The other comment he made at another time was along the lines of “If God doesn’t exist then nothing matters. If He does exist, then Christ has done it all anyway, so it doesn’t make any difference.” This was a somewhat distorted view of Christian doctrine, since faith** and obedience **go hand in hand. However he’d once been an altar boy in Sydney, so he had some background in the Catholic faith (which he obviously lost).

Anyway that was the sort of background I came from. I had a child’s belief when I was very young, but that got knocked out of me and I was an atheist by the age of fifteen.

It wasn’t until the tail end of the worst four years that I started getting this sort of spiritual push when I was about 28 (same age as CS Lewis I think), and went back to the same little Presbyterian Church where I’d had a couple of years Sunday School. That was around October 1982.

But from Christmas 1983, the “spiritual experiences” started coming thick and fast, beginning with a “double whammy” at a Scripture Union camp south of Nambour. After a few heavy gripping sessions, I soon came to be aware of the demonic as well. I also had a wise pastor at the time, from whom I learnt a lot. One of the first things that happened when I joined his church was that he ran an in-house Bible study course, which helped me to make sense of the Bible (he was no fundamentalist). I mean a new Christian might make some headway with the New Testaments, and especially the Gospels, but the Old Testament? Leviticus?

Anyway, you might say the spiritual experiences came first, and the intellectual follow up later.

I should have woken up much earlier, for I’d occasionally see quite demonic expressions on my father’s face (and I mean demonic). And there was the episode when my father turned up the night he died, and I was still an atheist at the time. Yet despite that salutary episode, it was nearly four more years before I became a Christian.

I know this much - it’s God’s call. If He hadn’t “pushed” me when I was around 28, I don’t know where I’d be today. Even Christ **prayed only for those the Father had given him, **and not for the world.

So we’re probably being a bit unfair when we pick on atheists. Was Christopher Hitchens ever “given to Christ” out of the world?

**John 17 NIV **
  1. After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life **to all those you have given him. **3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
6 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by[c] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
The last sentence makes me wonder about Judas. How much choice did he have?
 
To me it represents a curious, rather than a controlling mind. It show patience, perseverance, and possibly even a developing intelligence. Since, as you point out, time is irrelevant to an eternal force.

Creating something where you already know the outcome seems very dull to me…especially if my plan involves sentient beings.
Interesting take…Of course I don’t really think that “knowing the outcome” and “controlling” are necessarily synonymous I would definitely agree that God is interested, and shows great patience and perseverance. 👍
I don’t know how a “developing intelligence” would fit with a timeless god…It would seem to me that “developing” and “time / eternity” would be interlinked and a timeless god would not need to “develop”…but that idea starts to give me a headache…😉

As for knowing the outcome being dull - that might be your opinion but not everyone’s. Taking my “cook” analogy…When I am making a dish I know what the end result will be yet I enjoy making it. And certain dishes will sometimes surprise me - they never come out quite the same two times in a row…🤷…especially things like Chili and Spaghetti sauce. 😃
So - no - I don’t think foreknowledge would necessarily equate to boredom.

Peace
James
 
Oldcelt (and others),
Great conversation folks. 👍
Something that I have thought about for some time but have had trouble putting into words is how to resolve the idea of the God who is both interactive and stand-offish. I still am unable to articulate it well but I want to try to put out some thoughts and possibly get feedback from the group here.

The Deist idea of a “watchmaker” god who does not intervene obviously goes against the Judeo Christian view of God which sees God as intimately interested in all things. Of course we, in our turn, must try to understand and explain to the Deist (and others) why prayers are apparently not answered, why God allows suffering and other questions.

I’ve wondered and considered whether the answer doesn’t lay a bit in the middle…This is very complicated and not totally developed in my mind so bear with me a bit…I’ll try to be brief.

Perhaps the most common objection to God is the lack of, or the rarity of miracles. The notable (to the scientist type) lack of verifiable, repeatable proofs. OK I accept this as problematic. However, as a man of belief, I contend that God does want to be evident in all levels of our lives - so what is the problem?
I would offer that the problem is, what is sometimes referred to as, “noise”…

Example: A radio astronomer is seeking something specific in what he receives - but has to try to pick it out from all of the “noise” in the background.

If there is sufficient noise or interference (intentional or not) a signal can be easily lost or missed. During world war II the state of radio communication was such that sometimes “atmospherics” would prevent proper receiving of signals sent OR an enemy would intentionally “Jam” radio frequencies.

Now - taking this idea and applying it to the problem of God, His interaction, and our understanding I propose that God can be and is interactive with his creation - and I look at it being at three levels - the Cosmic, the intimate, and what I will call the conscious.
At the Cosmic level God’s interaction is easily employed, but easily missed due to the great distances and times involved.
At the intimate level, in the heart, likewise interaction is easily employed because there is only one heart, one mind to work with - it is a one on one exchange. But it may be missed or rejected by the individual, possibly without actually noting that it is from God.

The greater problem comes at the conscious level - interaction between people and groups. This is where the greatest “noise” is encountered. Human interchange, differing minds, thoughts, outlooks, worldviews, prejudices, and varying degrees of open or closed hearts and minds. In such an environment, it can be more difficult for God’s interaction to be recognized.
The Gospels actually allude to this idea - In Mt 13:54-58 it says that Jesus did not perform many miracles there “because of their unbelief”. This indicates that their unbelief may have had a factor either in the ability to perform such miracles - or in the ability of the people to recognize and accept them.

If, as I surmise above, this human “noise” existed then when the world was much more “spiritually” inclined, how much more noisy is today’s scientifically inclined world.

So - in summary - God can and does interact with us at all levels, but we put up the greatest barriers to Him (with or without intent) in the area of human interaction where there is just too much noise.

Just some thoughts…Obviously there are a lot of subtleties and permutations possible in the above…but that’s the best I can explain it for now…

(name removed by moderator)ut / critique welcomed.

Peace
James
 
To begin with, experience. Once I’d had certain experiences, I then went looking for intellectual confirmation, but the experience came first.

There was a time when I was an atheist. Some contributing reasons for this were the teaching of evolution in school, coming from a non-religious background, persecution at home by my own father (where the hell was God while this all this was going on?), the evil that was so evident in the world and so on. I remember feeling pleased for example when the communist Vietnamese finally did something about Pol Pot. Nobody else had the political or military guts.

And of course atheism meant that I thought I could do whatever I wanted, or if you like, indulge in wishful thinking and it’s associated actions.

I once asked my father if he believed in God. He gave a couple of responses. The first referred to the Second World War in which he fought, commenting that “If anyone knew about all the atrocities that were happening, God did, and He didn’t do a thing!”

The other comment he made at another time was along the lines of “If God doesn’t exist then nothing matters. If He does exist, then Christ has done it all anyway, so it doesn’t make any difference.” This was a somewhat distorted view of Christian doctrine, since faith** and obedience **go hand in hand. However he’d once been an altar boy in Sydney, so he had some background in the Catholic faith (which he obviously lost).

Anyway that was the sort of background I came from. I had a child’s belief when I was very young, but that got knocked out of me and I was an atheist by the age of fifteen.

It wasn’t until the tail end of the worst four years that I started getting this sort of spiritual push when I was about 28 (same age as CS Lewis I think), and went back to the same little Presbyterian Church where I’d had a couple of years Sunday School. That was around October 1982.

But from Christmas 1983, the “spiritual experiences” started coming thick and fast, beginning with a “double whammy” at a Scripture Union camp south of Nambour. After a few heavy gripping sessions, I soon came to be aware of the demonic as well. I also had a wise pastor at the time, from whom I learnt a lot. One of the first things that happened when I joined his church was that he ran an in-house Bible study course, which helped me to make sense of the Bible (he was no fundamentalist). I mean a new Christian might make some headway with the New Testaments, and especially the Gospels, but the Old Testament? Leviticus?

Anyway, you might say the spiritual experiences came first, and the intellectual follow up later.

I should have woken up much earlier, for I’d occasionally see quite demonic expressions on my father’s face (and I mean demonic). And there was the episode when my father turned up the night he died, and I was still an atheist at the time. Yet despite that salutary episode, it was nearly four more years before I became a Christian.

I know this much - it’s God’s call. If He hadn’t “pushed” me when I was around 28, I don’t know where I’d be today. Even Christ **prayed only for those the Father had given him, **and not for the world.

So we’re probably being a bit unfair when we pick on atheists. Was Christopher Hitchens ever “given to Christ” out of the world?

**John 17 NIV **

The last sentence makes me wonder about Judas. How much choice did he have?
As much as anyone else! There was no shortage of potential traitors. Even St Peter came perilously close…
 
We should try to answer this question as specific to the questioner as possible. Meaning, taking consideration why they are asking, what their struggles are, do they really want to know, etc. and follow the Holy Spirit.

But I find myself usually responding that I personally know, without a doubt, that I did NOT create myself. Then, in all honesty I tell them I recognize the voice of Jesus as my creator.

Michael
 
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