Why do you believe in Sola Scriptura?

[FathersKnowBest]

The writer is trying to emphasize the large crowds that are going out to hear John’s preaching and to be baptized by him.

Thank you. Now, could you please explain why your absolute statement above, that “all means all,” is only true when you say it is?

Once you do that, IF you can properly walk it back, we can discuss your misinterpretation of Romans.

If you want to read ahead, I’d suggest the article “Rescuing Romans From the Reformers.”
Very good article.

 

[joe371]

Sure. But I am not arguing that. The reason I am Lutheran, as opposed to Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, or Presbyterian is I believe they are all wrong about key doctrines. I just don’t feel the need to press the infallibility angle in order to be convinced of that.

Hmm…You claim that other Christians are wrong, based on your personal discernment (and church leadership); they claim that you are wrong based on their personal discernment. Either we have reached an immovable impasse (rendering the following passages void) or God, as he did in the first century, continues to guide His church into all truth. I got to go with option two:

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth

 

[joe371]

FathersKnowBest

True, but Catholic Church is the one that Christ started, and to whom He promised to guide. So the others may be interesting, but it is the Catholic Church’s existance that is divinely protected.

I agree. :thumbsup:Some have told me that that claim is a bit arrogant, but I don’t understand why. Jesus said “I will build my church” and promised to preserve doctrinal truth forever. He never said that Calvin, or Luther or Zwingli etc., would build His church, and I mean no disrespect to those leaders; just stating a fact. Jesus’ promise of perpetuity regarding all truth, is a wonderful gift in my humble opinion; it ensures that every generation has access to all truth, as opposed to just the first few generations.

 

[Nicea325]

So the Roman church has infallibly interpreted Matthew 16 to mean that Rome is the church that can infallibly interpret Matthew 16? Circular much?

No. Though, by and large, we agree more than disagree (by we I mean the East, Rome and Lutheranism).

So if God did not provide infallibility to guide His church (West/East)…then who infallibly determines such matters?

 

[Nicea325]

Negatron. All means all unless there is qualification. Since Scripture also says that Christ was without sin, we know Him to be an exception (and Mary, if you hold that belief).

So let me get this. You clearly said:

*Then we’re at an impasse, and you contradict the Scriptures. All have sinned. All means all. *

So apparently your understanding or explanation of “all” really does not mean “all”-does it?

 

[joe371]

God knows everyone. And God says that all have sinned.

If the Blessed Virgin were without sin, then we know that because of revelation. Which would mean that God has informed us that she is sinless. She would be an exception. God has indicted the rest of humanity, however.

Then we’re at an impasse, and you contradict the Scriptures. All have sinned. All means all.

So, Eve said yes to the devil thus allowing sin to enter into the world. Mary said yes to Gabriel, allowing salvation to enter the world. That said: with typology we always see in the NT things or people being prefigured by types in the old testament e.g. Jesus and Adam, and the prefigured type e.g. Adam and Eve, is always inferior. So if Eve was born without sin, how could Mary be born with sin; that would make her inferior to the type?

God reveals truth through His church:

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the **pillar and foundation of the truth.
**

to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,

Does all really mean all in scripture?

The Greek word, ‘PAS’, meaning ‘ALL’, can have different meanings as shown in other verses of Holy Scripture.

John 12:19, “The entire world has gone after him!” Did everyone in the entire world really go after Christ?

Mt 3:5-6, “Then went out to Him Jerusalem, and ALL Judea, and ALL the region about the Jordan; and they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.”
Were all of the people of Judea, and the region about the Jordan baptized?

The phrase ‘the whole world’, does not really mean everybody in the world. The words ‘whole world’ and ‘all’ are used in several different senses of Scripture, and seldom do they literally mean all persons.

Rom 11:26, “ALL Israel shall be saved.” We know for certain that ‘ALL’ in Israel will not be saved.

Rom 15:14, “…you yourselves are full of love, filled with ‘ALL’ knowledge…” Here we know for sure that the only person filled with ‘ALL’ knowledge is GOD Himself.

The Greek word ‘pas’ in many verses in Scripture simply means a ‘great number’, or ‘a lot’. Since there are exceptions for Jesus Christ, and for others as shown above, the meaning could be seen as, ‘ALL are subject to sin’. In the case of the Blessed Virgin Mary, a prevention of sin was brought about by a special grace from GOD.

 

[benjohnson]

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth

The trouble with us pesky Lutherans is that we’re rather immune to this argument - we understand that we’re a valid continuation of the western church.

Even the size of our communion doesn’t bother us - we expect to be persecuted.

 

[marywarfield]

So, Eve said yes to the devil thus allowing sin to enter into the world. Mary said yes to Gabriel, allowing salvation to enter the world. That said: with typology we always see in the NT things or people being prefigured by types in the old testament e.g. Jesus and Adam, and the prefigured type e.g. Adam and Eve, is always inferior. So if Eve was born without sin, how could Mary be born with sin; that would make her inferior to the type?

God reveals truth through His church:

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the **pillar and foundation of the truth.
**

to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,

Does all really mean all in scripture?

The Greek word, ‘PAS’, meaning ‘ALL’, can have different meanings as shown in other verses of Holy Scripture.

John 12:19, “The entire world has gone after him!” Did everyone in the entire world really go after Christ?

Mt 3:5-6, “Then went out to Him Jerusalem, and ALL Judea, and ALL the region about the Jordan; and they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.”
Were all of the people of Judea, and the region about the Jordan baptized?

The phrase ‘the whole world’, does not really mean everybody in the world. The words ‘whole world’ and ‘all’ are used in several different senses of Scripture, and seldom do they literally mean all persons.

Rom 11:26, “ALL Israel shall be saved.” We know for certain that ‘ALL’ in Israel will not be saved.

Rom 15:14, “…you yourselves are full of love, filled with ‘ALL’ knowledge…” Here we know for sure that the only person filled with ‘ALL’ knowledge is GOD Himself.

The Greek word ‘pas’ in many verses in Scripture simply means a ‘great number’, or ‘a lot’. Since there are exceptions for Jesus Christ, and for others as shown above, the meaning could be seen as, ‘ALL are subject to sin’. In the case of the Blessed Virgin Mary, a prevention of sin was brought about by a special grace from GOD.

Excellent post.
However I think what happens is Catholics get in
arguments with bible literalists as with PerCrucdm
Precisely because of the word all- which is out of
context for most rational charitable people when
combined with “have sinned”. If taken literally
that means everyone on the planet at this very moment
has actually committed an actual sin. It denotes
an “action” on the part of the sinner. Therefore
one look around our world tells us that can’t possibly
be what the phrase means.
I doubt the scripture is attempting to accuse
people of stuff they have not yet actually done.
Lol.

 

[joe371]

The trouble with us pesky Lutherans is that we’re rather immune to this argument - we understand that we’re a valid continuation of the western church.

Even the size of our communion doesn’t bother us - we expect to be persecuted.

 

[joe371]

Excellent post.
However I think what happens is Catholics get in
arguments with bible literalists as with PerCrucdm
Precisely because of the word all- which is out of
context for most rational charitable people when
combined with “have sinned”. If taken literally
that means everyone on the planet at this very moment
has actually committed an actual sin. It denotes
an “action” on the part of the sinner. Therefore
one look around our world tells us that can’t possibly
be what the phrase means.
I doubt the scripture is attempting to accuse
people of stuff they have not yet actually done.
Lol.

The logic is pretty straightforward: If all have sinned must be taken absolutely literally, then so should this verse - "…you yourselves are full of love, filled with ALL knowledge…and we know that no one is filled with all knowledge.

 

[marywarfield]

The logic is pretty straightforward: If all have sinned must be taken absolutely literally, then so should this verse - "…you yourselves are full of love, filled with ALL knowledge…and we know that no one is filled with all knowledge.

Sort of like taking psalms literally. “no man is righteous in the
eyes of the Lord” and dang it all if God didn’t go out
and start telling Abraham, Isaac, and other prophets how
righteous they were. In fact so righteous was Abraham
the Trinity had dinner at his house!

You must admit God has a terrific sense of humor-
something missing in literalist views.

 

[Per_Crucem]

So, Eve said yes to the devil thus allowing sin to enter into the world. Mary said yes to Gabriel, allowing salvation to enter the world. That said: with typology we always see in the NT things or people being prefigured by types in the old testament e.g. Jesus and Adam, and the prefigured type e.g. Adam and Eve, is always inferior. So if Eve was born without sin, how could Mary be born with sin; that would make her inferior to the type?

God reveals truth through His church:

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the **pillar and foundation of the truth.
**

to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord

No one is denying that. However, note that the church itself is not the truth. The truth is the gospel of Christ. Secondly, the church is the pillar of the truth, not the magisterium. Don’t exchange one for the other.

Does all really mean all in scripture?

When all mankind, Jew and Gentile, is indicted by Paul just a few verses before, yep. The context determines the all.

The Greek word, ‘PAS’, meaning ‘ALL’, can have different meanings as shown in other verses of Holy Scripture.

John 12:19, “The entire world has gone after him!” Did everyone in the entire world really go after Christ?

Mt 3:5-6, “Then went out to Him Jerusalem, and ALL Judea, and ALL the region about the Jordan; and they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.”
Were all of the people of Judea, and the region about the Jordan baptized?

The phrase ‘the whole world’, does not really mean everybody in the world. The words ‘whole world’ and ‘all’ are used in several different senses of Scripture, and seldom do they literally mean all persons.

Rom 11:26, “ALL Israel shall be saved.” We know for certain that ‘ALL’ in Israel will not be saved.

Rom 15:14, “…you yourselves are full of love, filled with ‘ALL’ knowledge…” Here we know for sure that the only person filled with ‘ALL’ knowledge is GOD Himself.

The Greek word ‘pas’ in many verses in Scripture simply means a ‘great number’, or ‘a lot’. Since there are exceptions for Jesus Christ, and for others as shown above, the meaning could be seen as, ‘ALL are subject to sin’. In the case of the Blessed Virgin Mary, a prevention of sin was brought about by a special grace from GOD.

Egads, joe. You sound like a Calvinist arguing for limited atonement.

 

[joe371]

Per Crucem;11838051]No one is denying that. However, note that the church itself is not the truth. The truth is the gospel of Christ. Secondly, the church is the pillar of the truth, not the magisterium. Don’t exchange one for the other.

The church, via God’s infallible guidance, teaches truth as per the bible. Where does the bible suggest that the truth is the gospel of Christ alone?

When all mankind, Jew and Gentile, is indicted by Paul just a few verses before, yep. The context determines the all.

So, all have sinned is an all-inclusive statement, (no exceptions) and - "you yourselves are full of love, filled with ALL knowledge, is not (there are exceptions? Since you and I cannot agree on this to whom does the bible tell us to take our differences?

Egads, joe. You sound like a Calvinist arguing for limited atonement.

Hmm…I have no idea what you are talking about. It seems you have completely missed my point. The logic is pretty straightforward: If all have sinned - must be taken literally, then so should this verse - "…you yourselves are full of love, filled with ALL knowledge…and we know that no one is filled with all knowledge.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

No one is denying that. However, note that the church itself is not the truth. The truth is the gospel of Christ. Secondly, the church is the pillar of the truth, not the magisterium. Don’t exchange one for the other.

Why not?

Scripture does.

In Matthew 18, Jesus tells us that if there is a dispute, we should “take it to the Church.”
What does He mean? Anyone in the Church?

We see what happened when St. Paul had a dispute with the Judaisers. He got out his Bible and started quoting scripture to them. Whoops, no. That’s the protestant version.
St. Paul “took it to the Church.”

Who was “the Church”? Scripture tells us:
Ac 15:6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter.

In other words, the Magisterium met together.

See? Not so difficult.

 

[Per_Crucem]

The church, via God’s infallible guidance, teaches truth as per the bible. Where does the bible suggest that the truth is the gospel of Christ alone?

What does Paul state in the very next sentence? Is the truth he talks about the church, or Jesus? When you proclaim Christ, you are proclaiming the truth, of which you are the pillar. Because you are part of the church.

So, all have sinned is an all-inclusive statement, (no exceptions) and - "you yourselves are full of love, filled with ALL knowledge, is not (there are exceptions? Since you and I cannot agree on this to whom does the bible tell us to take our differences?

The Eastern Orthodox

There are exceptions because the context of Paul’s statement about knowledge is not an all inclusive one. Paul’s statement in Romans 3 is all-inclusive, except for those whom the very same author makes exceptions for.

Hmm…It seems you have completely missed my point. The logic is pretty straightforward: If all have sinned - must be taken literally, then so should this verse - "…you yourselves are full of love, filled with ALL knowledge…and we know that no one is filled with all knowledge.

So when Hebrews says that Jesus tasted death for everyone, it wasn’t all inclusive?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Per Crucem, welcome back.
Maybe now you can address my question:

Per Crucem;11834484:

FathersKnowBest;11834427:

Why doesn’t “all” mean “all” in idioms regarding John’s baptizing?

The writer is trying to emphasize the large crowds that are going out to hear John’s preaching and to be baptized by him. In the case of Paul’s statements in Romans, prior to his “all,” he has already made the case that both Jews and Gentiles are under sin and that no man may be justified through the law, because the law reveals sin, and that the world is shut up before God and must acknowledge their sin. Now what, in the case of Paul, indicates he is really saying “only some have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”?

Thank you. Now, could you please explain why your absolute statement above, that “all means all,” is only true when you say it is?

Once you do that, IF you can properly walk it back, we can discuss your misinterpretation of Romans.

If you want to read ahead, I’d suggest the article “Rescuing Romans From the Reformers.”
Very good article.

And perhaps comment on this article?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

joe371;11838092:

So, all have sinned is an all-inclusive statement, (no exceptions) and - "you yourselves are full of love, filled with ALL knowledge, is not (there are exceptions? Since you and I cannot agree on this to whom does the bible tell us to take our differences?

The Eastern Orthodox

Not the Lutherans?
Now you’re getting somewhere.



Now think about this seriously: why are you in a denomination that DOESN’T have ANY claim to be the Church that Jesus was talking about in Matthew 18?

 

[eddie_too]

the reason the RCC makes a distinction between the reformers of the 16th century and the schismatics of the 11th century is because the schismatics retained apostolic succession and the reformers did not.

consequently, while there are some theological differences between rome and the eastern orthodox, the eastern orthodox still profess seven sacraments and apostolic succession while none of the reformers did then or do now.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

So when Hebrews says that Jesus tasted death for everyone, it wasn’t all inclusive?

I’m sorry, but you didn’t come close to even attempting to answer the question asked.

 

[joe371]

Per Crucem;11838104]What does Paul state in the very next sentence? Is the truth he talks about the church, or Jesus? When you proclaim Christ, you are proclaiming the truth, of which you are the pillar. Because you are part of the church.

Jesus is of course truth who infallibly guides his church into all truth. So, when a baptist proclaims Christ and teaches things you do not agree with, he/she is proclaiming truth? Of course not. The church is the pillar and foundation of truth and therefore every Christian, regardless of denomination, is proclaiming truth? Nah, I know you don’t believe that…

The Eastern Orthodox

Cool. So you belong to the EOC? It’s either the EOCs or the CC. The"manifold wisdom of God is known through one of these churches so why not belong to one of them. It’s certainly not one of the Protestant churches, and I mean no disrespect; just being honest.

There are exceptions because the context of Paul’s statement about knowledge is not an all inclusive one. Paul’s statement in Romans 3 is all-inclusive, except for those whom the very same author makes exceptions for.

So there could be an exception regarding “all have sinned”? Or are you going to insist that you are absolutely right, no chance of being wrong on this particular issue?