Why do you believe in Sola Scriptura?

[FathersKnowBest]

Did you year any Lutheran say St. James was not a true Christian? If not, then please don’t put those words into our mouths.

The claim was made that the Catholic Church lost its Authority due to a teaching that was directly in line with that of St. James’. Therefore, either the claim is wrong, or St. James also taught error. Your pick.

The Lutheran response would be:

"Oh faith is a living, busy, active, mighty thing, so that it is impossible for it not to be constantly doing what is good.

That is a claim, an assertion. It is not a teaching.

Likewise, faith does not ask if good works are to be done, but before one can ask, faith has already done them and is constantly active" (Formula of Concord, SD, IV, 10-11)."

This contradicts St. James.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Once saved always saved is a false doctrine, that much is true. However, when we are justified, we are fully justified. There is no process. One is either just or not. That is not to say that someone cannot reject their justification and lose it. But if you have it, you have it.

Yes. Until you sin. Either by commission, or by omission.
A sin of omission would include not doing good works prepared for you by God.

 

[eddie_too]

in the view of the lutherans participating in this discussion, how is justification lost, and how is it re-obtained if it is lost?

 

[Per_Crucem]

in the view of the lutherans participating in this discussion, how is justification lost, and how is it re-obtained if it is lost?

It is lost by rejecting/renouncing faith, ultimately. It is regained by faith, through the word and sacraments.

 

[eddie_too]

does that mean that committing acts of rape or murder or other reprehensible actions does not result in the loss of justification, only stopping believing results in the loss of justification?

do i have that right?

 

[Per_Crucem]

does that mean that committing acts of rape or murder or other reprehensible actions does not result in the loss of justification, only stopping believing results in the loss of justification?

do i have that right?

A better question to ask would be, is someone who commits an act of rape justified to begin with? The question is, of course, rhetorical.

 

[marywarfield]

A better question to ask would be, is someone who commits an act of rape justified to begin with? The question is, of course, rhetorical.

Then again that would be “once saved, always saved”
speaking.

 

[marywarfield]

It is lost by rejecting/renouncing faith, ultimately. It is regained by faith, through the word and sacraments.

But could you answer the question of whether acts
of murder or rape cause loss of justification or is
the only way to lose justification is
loss of faith? What happens with the murderer,
rapist, child molester God says naughty but at
least you believe or what?
And not rhetoricallyas it is rather a significant question.

 

[dronald]

But could you answer the question of whether acts
of murder or rape cause loss of justification or is
the only way to lose justification is
loss of faith? What happens with the murderer,
rapist, child molester God says naughty but at
least you believe or what?
And not rhetoricallyas it is rather a significant question.

How in the world would this be possible? What Christians who know Christ and put Faith in Him are on a rape spree?

 

[steido01]

But could you answer the question of whether acts
of murder or rape cause loss of justification or is
the only way to lose justification is
loss of faith? What happens with the murderer,
rapist, child molester God says naughty but at
least you believe or what?
And not rhetoricallyas it is rather a significant question.

Are you implying that a murderer cannot be forgiven? That seems to be at odds with Christ’s words from the Cross.

 

[eddie_too]

is it the lutheran position that someone who has been justified through faith cannot commit a grievous offense against God?

st. peter had faith in Jesus and yet st. peter denied knowing Jesus.

when was st. peter justified?

 

[marywarfield]

But could you answer the question of whether acts
of murder or rape cause loss of justification or is
the only way to lose justification is
loss of faith? What happens with the murderer,
rapist, child molester God says naughty but at
least you believe or what?
And not rhetoricallyas it is rather a significant question.

Question is for Per Crucem. Let’s not hijack the question yet.

 

[Per_Crucem]

is it the lutheran position that someone who has been justified through faith cannot commit a grievous offense against God?

st. peter had faith in Jesus and yet st. peter denied knowing Jesus.

when was st. peter justified?

Oh, sure they can. Defining a time for when it happened is superfluous. Either faith was lost prior to the act, or because of the act. Either way, the result is the same. The person would have to be restored to repentance and faith.

 

[steido01]

Question is for Per Crucem. Let’s not hijack the question yet.

Frankly, the question was absurd. Lutherans do not profess OSAS, so the question doesn’t compute. So I asked you an equally absurd question.

To us Lutherans, Faith and works are inseparable. Faith demands works and without Faith, no works can be done. Your question wrongly presumes that Lutherans think the two can be separated in this real, practical sense; they cannot. Make more sense?

 

[Per_Crucem]

How in the world would this be possible? What Christians who know Christ and put Faith in Him are on a rape spree?

Exactly. I love when we’re asked those questions, because of all the evangelicals out there on murder and rape sprees. It’s a patently absurd hypothetical.

 

[Per_Crucem]

How in the world would this be possible? What Christians who know Christ and put Faith in Him are on a rape spree?

Incidentally, though, the question lets us know we’re on the right side of the justification argument. St. Paul expected this objection to his teaching on justification in Romans 3-5, when he said in Romans 6, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?” He knew that someone would ask that very question, “So you’re saying we can commit rape and murder and sin and still be justified?” No one would ask that question IF Paul were teaching faith+merit for justification.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Exactly. I love when we’re asked those questions, because of all the evangelicals out there on murder and rape sprees. It’s a patently absurd hypothetical.

Nope. Your answer falls under the “no true scottsman” fallacy.

 

[marywarfield]

Exactly. I love when we’re asked those questions, because of all the evangelicals out there on murder and rape sprees. It’s a patently absurd hypothetical.

I’m sorry that fails. To simply say one is justified and
therefore incapable of ever sinning again EXCEPT in denial of
faith is do ludicrous I don’t know where to begin.

And to claim that somehow by baptism or claim of
justification one automatically loses the temptation
or ability to sin is equally absurd. If you believe that
then you leave yourself open to any type of satanic activity.

 

[JonNC]

does that mean that committing acts of rape or murder or other reprehensible actions does not result in the loss of justification, only stopping believing results in the loss of justification?

do i have that right?

Of course not.

1. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

Intentional perseverance in sin causes a loss of saving faith.
Just as doing good works is not an option, as the Epitome says above, neither is intentional continued, repeated and unrepented sin an option.

Jon

 

[eddie_too]

i see you make a distinction between “faith” and “saving faith”.

i was taught that the definition of faith is accepting what God has revealed because He has revealed it and He can neither deceive nor be deceived.

i have never heard a definition of “saving faith”. what do you mean by that? how is “saving faith” distinct from “faith”?