Why do you believe what you believe?

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He did not address every issue specifically. Sure you can apply general principles of his teachings but he did not write a conpendium answering every single objection to the bahai faith because he was just a man, limited and could only write a limted amount of things. But I see no justification behind your interpretion of the text only an attempt to back off from a question you cannot answer because you do not know the answer and nor did your prophet.
Ignatian,
. Quite honestly, the spirit of contention seems to accompany nearly every comment you offer. What is the source of all this hostility? Were you beaten as a child, or what?

. I grew up amongst alcoholics, not in my immediate family so much, but within the context of reservation life, with “Cowboys VS Indians” and such, and cannot help but have a series of deja vu memories associated with your entrenched style, which gets in the way of serious discussion. Its as though you know no other way. Have you ever actually considered “courtesy” as a behavioral approach in such sensitive topics as the discussion of religious beliefs?

. Truly, you would have enjoyed being a white man on the reservation, Iggy, telling ALL the Indians that they were going to hell. It is precisely such attitudes which drove me to investigate the various religions of the world, hoping to understand human behavior and beliefs. What is it that people seek, and why?

.
 
Ignatian,
. Quite honestly, the spirit of contention seems to accompany nearly every comment you offer. What is the source of all this hostility? **Were you beaten as a child, or what? **

. I grew up amongst alcoholics, not in my immediate family so much, but within the context of reservation life, with “Cowboys VS Indians” and such, and cannot help but have a series of deja vu memories associated with your entrenched style, which gets in the way of serious discussion. Its as though you know no other way. Have you ever actually considered “courtesy” as a behavioral approach in such sensitive topics as the discussion of religious beliefs?

. Truly, you would have enjoyed being a white man on the reservation, Iggy, telling ALL the Indians that they were going to hell. It is precisely such attitudes which drove me to investigate the various religions of the world, hoping to understand human behavior and beliefs. What is it that people seek, and why?

.
Now that right there is how you conduct a dialogue, are you proud of yourself for having said that? I hope you are because i find whenever you attempt to answer daler, most of the time you simply don’t attempt a responce but try to connect emotionally with people, not as an intellect but as emotional wreck. Your approach really doesn’t work here and against someone in the real world who knows what they are talking about, I bet it wouldn’t work there either.

What does racism have to do with the current discussion on whether or not we have the same God? Is this an unimportant question for you? Do you want to discover whether or not we can pray to the same God is questioning it from the begining going a bit to far that you write this highly rhetorical stab with no content worth responding to in the first place. Better that I should have typed elipses instead of responding to such trash because you clearly don’t take these arguments of religion seriously.

I’ll ask again and without resorting to such rhetoric or your prophet try to answer. Do you worship one God in the trintiy? Do you believe God intended this world to be perfect and glorified (in the Christian understanding not the bahai understanding, which means deathless)? Do you believe that God took on an additional nature and became man? That it is right to worship this man as he walked on the earth as Lord and Christ?

Now I know the answer to all of these questions and they are all negative on your behalf, but you will never admit to it, no bahai will. Because admitting such fundamental differences is accepting the reality we really do not have the same God but a different God. Christians are idolatrous wretches who trade the worship of God for hte worship of a man, that is what the muslim says and he is being consistent with his religion and holy book. I have no idea how bahai, who deny the incarnation, who deny the trinity, who deny Jesus is the only saviour from our sins, who deny his name is the only name under heaven by which we can be saved go on to say: “We believe in the same God.”

Hope is good, but hope in false things is just self deception.
 
I asked you a question.

Is your God Jesus who created the world? if you answer in the negative we have established we believe in Gods which are starkly different. If we go on to ask more questions about the idenity of our Gods through either their actions or what they have said much more will be revealed. My God said the creation is good and never intended for mankind to die, did your God intend for man to die?
Your question is answered at this link - bahaullah.com/bahaullah-writings-soul.html

Regards Tony
 
He did not address every issue specifically. Sure you can apply general principles of his teachings but he did not write a conpendium answering every single objection to the bahai faith because he was just a man, limited and could only write a limted amount of things. But I see no justification behind your interpretion of the text only an attempt to back off from a question you cannot answer because you do not know the answer and nor did your prophet.
Isaiah 53:7

Matthew 27:12-14

Mark 14:60-61

😉 🙂

Regards Tony
 
Now I know the answer to all of these questions and they are all negative on your behalf, but you will never admit to it, no bahai will. Because admitting such fundamental differences is accepting the reality we really do not have the same God but a different God. Christians are idolatrous wretches who trade the worship of God for hte worship of a man, that is what the muslim says and he is being consistent with his religion and holy book. I have no idea how bahai, who deny the incarnation, who deny the trinity, who deny Jesus is the only saviour from our sins, who deny his name is the only name under heaven by which we can be saved go on to say: “We believe in the same God.”

Hope is good, but hope in false things is just self deception.
This would be applicable

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
  1. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom…

…The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to “maintain good fellowship among the nations” (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men,(14) so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven.(15)

Also - bahai-faith.manvell.org.uk/fragrant/catholic.html

👍

Regards Tony
 
This would be applicable

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
  1. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom…

…The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to “maintain good fellowship among the nations” (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men,(14) so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven.(15)

Also - bahai-faith.manvell.org.uk/fragrant/catholic.html

👍

Regards Tony
Am I a roman catholic that the catechism or opinions of the roman church are my own? I think Roman catholics deceive themselves when considering muslims as worshipping the one trinitarian God.
 
Isaiah 53:7

Matthew 27:12-14

Mark 14:60-61

😉 🙂

Regards Tony
Mark 14: 60 Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

Matthew 27:12 When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. 13 Then Pilate asked him, “Don’t you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?” 14 But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge—to the great amazement of the governor.

I don’t get how this is supposed to respond to the claim that your prophet has answered every single question in his writings. Are you trying to reverse your position and compare him to Jesus who at the time was silent? Which is it? Is your prophet able to answer everything or not?
 
Mark 14: 60 Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

Matthew 27:12 When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. 13 Then Pilate asked him, “Don’t you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?” 14 But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge—to the great amazement of the governor.

I don’t get how this is supposed to respond to the claim that your prophet has answered every single question in his writings. Are you trying to reverse your position and compare him to Jesus who at the time was silent? Which is it? Is your prophet able to answer everything or not?
This I composed in Reply 😊

**
Contained within a Prophets Mystic Word,
are many a meaning not yet heard.
How can one appreciate the beauty therein
if the ears are tightly closed to the Hymn?
Why further espouse the beauty manifold,
when ancient rejection is retold?**

TBS 6/01/2014 😉

God bless, regards Tony
 
This I composed in Reply 😊

**
Contained within a Prophets Mystic Word,
are many a meaning not yet heard.
How can one reject the beauty therein
if the ears are closed to the Hymn?
Why further espouse the beauty told,
when ancient rejection is retold?**

TBS 6/01/2014 😉

God bless, regards Tony
Have you confused sophistry for a responce per chance? Or do you just not care? If you don’t care why are you wasting my time and yours? Is this what you do when you cannot answer a question?
 
i see the bahai are still trying to use Jesus to give their belief system credibility.

bizarrely, the bahai continue to insist that what the Roman Catholic Church meant when it wrote the New Testament is wrong.

for example, when the gospel writer writes that Jesus consumed food with the disciples after Jesus’ Resurrection, he really means something else that for reasons known only to him and the bahai he chose to keep to himself until bahaullah could come along and again bring it to the world’s attention.

why do i say bizarre? well, imagine how someone feels and what they think when a complete stranger, with limited knowledge of what is taught and believed, comes along deprecatingly deigns to explain to him or her that what they said and what they wrote means something completely different from what they intended it to mean when they said it or wrote it.

the old bahai mantra, second verse, same as the first.

perhaps bizarre is a mite harsh. is a better description of such an attitude blithely ignorant?
 
Now that right there is how you conduct a dialogue, are you proud of yourself for having said that? I hope you are because i find whenever you attempt to answer daler, most of the time you simply don’t attempt a responce but try to connect emotionally with people, not as an intellect but as emotional wreck. Your approach really doesn’t work here and against someone in the real world who knows what they are talking about, I bet it wouldn’t work there either.

What does racism have to do with the current discussion on whether or not we have the same God? Is this an unimportant question for you? Do you want to discover whether or not we can pray to the same God is questioning it from the begining going a bit to far that you write this highly rhetorical stab with no content worth responding to in the first place. Better that I should have typed elipses instead of responding to such trash because you clearly don’t take these arguments of religion seriously.

I’ll ask again and without resorting to such rhetoric or your prophet try to answer. Do you worship one God in the trintiy? Do you believe God intended this world to be perfect and glorified (in the Christian understanding not the bahai understanding, which means deathless)? Do you believe that God took on an additional nature and became man? That it is right to worship this man as he walked on the earth as Lord and Christ?

Now I know the answer to all of these questions and they are all negative on your behalf, but you will never admit to it, no bahai will. Because admitting such fundamental differences is accepting the reality we really do not have the same God but a different God. Christians are idolatrous wretches who trade the worship of God for hte worship of a man, that is what the muslim says and he is being consistent with his religion and holy book. I have no idea how bahai, who deny the incarnation, who deny the trinity, who deny Jesus is the only saviour from our sins, who deny his name is the only name under heaven by which we can be saved go on to say: “We believe in the same God.”

Hope is good, but hope in false things is just self deception.
Ignatian,
. My comment is regarding what I perceive to be an “attitude” of superiority which is reminiscent of other parallel attitudes of superiority which I have witnessed throughout my life. I’m not calling you a racist, but am suggesting that the air of hostility and superiority which you seem to hold is in fact what blinds you to the recognition that there is only One God, whether called Allah, Jehovah, or the Great Spirit.

. I am also suggesting that Saul suffered from the same spiritual condition, had all the knowledge in the world, and that it did him absolutely no good. Until he was humbled, and became Paul, he was unable to see the truth.

. Rightly or wrongly, my perception of you is based upon a sentiment of hostility which you yourself project. Your notion of God appears to be self-centered to some extent and it appears to me that you have had very little real life contact with people of other cultures, religions, and possibly races. I don’t know to what extent this may or may not be true, but what I am suggesting is that rather than trying to understand everything intellectually, you would do better to broaden your circle of contacts and friends.

. The greatest joy of my life has been the immersion into many other cultures, having formed deep friendships and bonds with numerous people of colors and beliefs other than my own. What I am suggesting is that it is this deep association with peoples of all parts of the world which has opened my own eyes spiritually and enabled me to know that we all worship the same God, by whatever name.

. You may not want to go down that road. Many people fear others because of differences of skin color, religious beliefs, and national origin. I don’t know your history and circumstances. For me, it is like Thanksgiving dinner - to share cross-cultureally, pray and fellowship with all of God’s people, in a spirit of joy and fragrance. Having done this for most of my life, I can no longer even comprehend the prejudices of people who have not been exposed in this manner.

. May I ask you how many Muslims you know personally? How many you count as friends? How many Africans, Chinese, Indians? How many Mormons, Jews, Hindus? How many homes have you sat at table with among these great varieties of God’s children?

. You already know the intellectual answers to all of the questions you ask, so there is little point in rehashing the different conclusions.
.
 
Ignatian,
. My comment is regarding what I perceive to be an “attitude” of superiority which is reminiscent of other parallel attitudes of superiority which I have witnessed throughout my life. I’m not calling you a racist, but am suggesting that the air of hostility and superiority which you seem to hold is in fact what blinds you to the recognition that there is only One God, whether called Allah, Jehovah, or the Great Spirit.

. I am also suggesting that Saul suffered from the same spiritual condition, had all the knowledge in the world, and that it did him absolutely no good. Until he was humbled, and became Paul, he was unable to see the truth.

. Rightly or wrongly, my perception of you is based upon a sentiment of hostility which you yourself project. Your notion of God appears to be self-centered to some extent and it appears to me that you have had very little real life contact with people of other cultures, religions, and possibly races. I don’t know to what extent this may or may not be true, but what I am suggesting is that rather than trying to understand everything intellectually, you would do better to broaden your circle of contacts and friends.

. The greatest joy of my life has been the immersion into many other cultures, having formed deep friendships and bonds with numerous people of colors and beliefs other than my own. What I am suggesting is that it is this deep association with peoples of all parts of the world which has opened my own eyes spiritually and enabled me to know that we all worship the same God, by whatever name.

. You may not want to go down that road. Many people fear others because of differences of skin color, religious beliefs, and national origin. I don’t know your history and circumstances. For me, it is like Thanksgiving dinner - to share cross-cultureally, pray and fellowship with all of God’s people, in a spirit of joy and fragrance. Having done this for most of my life, I can no longer even comprehend the prejudices of people who have not been exposed in this manner.

. May I ask you how many Muslims you know personally? How many you count as friends? How many Africans, Chinese, Indians? How many Mormons, Jews, Hindus? How many homes have you sat at table with among these great varieties of God’s children?

. You already know the intellectual answers to all of the questions you ask, so there is little point in rehashing the different conclusions.
.
Daler stop addressing me, its clear you don’t want to discuss ideas but rather you want to use emotions to persuade people. Not interested in your life story or feelings.
 
i see the bahai are still trying to use Jesus to give their belief system credibility.

bizarrely, the bahai continue to insist that what the Roman Catholic Church meant when it wrote the New Testament is wrong.

for example, when the gospel writer writes that Jesus consumed food with the disciples after Jesus’ Resurrection, he really means something else that for reasons known only to him and the bahai he chose to keep to himself until bahaullah could come along and again bring it to the world’s attention.

why do i say bizarre? well, imagine how someone feels and what they think when a complete stranger, with limited knowledge of what is taught and believed, comes along deprecatingly deigns to explain to him or her that what they said and what they wrote means something completely different from what they intended it to mean when they said it or wrote it.

the old bahai mantra, second verse, same as the first.

perhaps bizarre is a mite harsh. is a better description of such an attitude blithely ignorant?
Eddie - Kind of what the Jews would have said to the Christians 😉 If the Baha’i Faith is not a creditable way to Love God, then dear friend we are all lost :confused: Thus with my reply a feel a little cheeky, so please forgive 😊

Time proved that the Christian take on the Old Testament Scriptures was indeed not “bizarre” or “of such an attitude blithely ignorant”?!

So Our gift to you is a prayer that you may skip some of this time rejecting what you are waiting for, cut to the chase and make it a reality 👍 😃

Regards Tony
 
Eddie - Kind of what the Jews would have said to the Christians 😉 If the Baha’i Faith is not a creditable way to Love God, then dear friend we are all lost :confused: Thus with my reply a feel a little cheeky, so please forgive 😊

Time proved that the Christian take on the Old Testament Scriptures was indeed not “bizarre” or “of such an attitude blithely ignorant”?!

So Our gift to you is a prayer that you may skip some of this time rejecting what you are waiting for, cut to the chase and make it a reality 👍 😃

Regards Tony
Why is it enough of an argument for you to say the jews would say the same thing of Christians? Alot of groups would say things about alot of other groups, it the ideas that matter and what the jews believe have no bearing on Christianity. Now if the jew wants to make an argument against Christ and you want to use that argument go ahead, because this constant meme of comparing the Christians to the jews before them is tiring.
 
Why is it enough of an argument for you to say the jews would say the same thing of Christians? A lot of groups would say things about a lot of other groups, it the ideas that matter and what the jews believe have no bearing on Christianity. Now if the jew wants to make an argument against Christ and you want to use that argument go ahead, because this constant meme of comparing the Christians to the jews before them is tiring.
It gives you the possible scale of the rejection does it not 😉

This is not a throw away possibility, it is either right or wrong and I will leave you to contemplate the scale of the rejection if indeed it is proven to be correct!

I think it is now time to say our farewells IgnatianPhilo. The questions have been asked and the answers given.

I will leave you with a God Bless and may Faith and Life bring you ever closer to the Love of God, the reason we are here.

Regards Tony
 
It gives you the possible scale of the rejection does it not 😉

This is not a throw away possibility, it is either right or wrong and I will leave you to contemplate the scale of the rejection if indeed it is proven to be correct!

I think it is now time to say our farewells IgnatianPhilo. The questions have been asked and the answers given.

I will leave you with a God Bless and may Faith and Life bring you ever closer to the Love of God, the reason we are here.

Regards Tony
We are all bound to think about things except this seems to be the primary argument by which you use to try and refute Christianity. THe jews were wrong about Jesus why can’t you Christians be wrong about Mirza Hussain? Am I supposed to blindly reject my traditions in favour of your teacher who contradicts the basic spirit of Jesus’s ministry? I don’t think so, Christ warned us of false prophets who would claim to be the Christ and we are to reject them and we are also to reject any good news which was different from that which we have received. The bahai is different from that which we have received.

Yes the jews may very well argue they cannot forsake to put some of the law into practice, they may very well argue they don’t see Christ fulfilling every prophecy and those discussions can be had and do happen and some are convinced and others are not convinced. But if we are only going to deal with shallow similarities and not specific arguments no discussion can be had. That line is no more going to convince a jew that they should become Christian than a Christian should become a muslim, than a muslim should become a bahai.
 
We are all bound to think about things except this seems to be the primary argument by which you use to try and refute Christianity. THe jews were wrong about Jesus why can’t you Christians be wrong about Mirza Hussain? Am I supposed to blindly reject my traditions in favour of your teacher who contradicts the basic spirit of Jesus’s ministry? I don’t think so, Christ warned us of false prophets who would claim to be the Christ and we are to reject them and we are also to reject any good news which was different from that which we have received. The bahai is different from that which we have received.

Yes the jews may very well argue they cannot forsake to put some of the law into practice, they may very well argue they don’t see Christ fulfilling every prophecy and those discussions can be had and do happen and some are convinced and others are not convinced. But if we are only going to deal with shallow similarities and not specific arguments no discussion can be had. That line is no more going to convince a jew that they should become Christian than a Christian should become a muslim, than a muslim should become a bahai.
Baha’u’llah has said -

“O brother, we should open our eyes, meditate upon His Word, and seek the sheltering shadow of the Manifestations of God, that perchance we may be warned by the unmistakable counsels of the Book, and give heed to the admonitions recorded in the holy Tablets; that we may not cavil at the Revealer of the verses, that we may resign ourselves wholly to His Cause, and embrace wholeheartedly His law, that haply we may enter the court of His mercy, and dwell upon the shore of His grace. He, verily, is merciful, and forgiving towards His servants” (“Kitab-i-Iqan” p. 217)

“The wine of renunciation must needs be quaffed, the lofty heights of detachment must needs be attained, and the meditation referred to in the words “One hour’s reflection is preferable to seventy years of pious worship” must needs be observed, so that the secret of the wretched behaviour of the people might be discovered, those people who, despite the love and yearning for truth which they profess, curse the followers of Truth when once He hath been made manifest…” (“Kitab-i-Iqan” [rev. ed.], (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 1985), p. 238)

God Bless - Regards Tony
 
Am I a roman catholic that the catechism or opinions of the roman church are my own? I think Roman catholics deceive themselves when considering muslims as worshipping the one trinitarian God.
The CCC does not say we worship the same God, it says that Muslims profess to worship the same God. There is a difference.
 
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