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promethius95945
Guest
The Paschal Sacrifice should NEVER be likened to a “snack.”
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S
SueKrum
Guest
I am responding the part I bolded,
My sister claims that God is not a god of rituels. I always have a strong desire to point to some of the old testament rituels to prove other wize, but to her, the old testament is just something to remember how things used to be. this is the new covenent, no law, no sacrafices, no rituels. Just Jesus died for sins. And when He’s in our hearts, we’ll want to do the right thing. (but since there’s no law, what is the right thing?
)I really appriciate all your responses and I’ve been reading over the materials. I think I may get one of those Hahn CD’s and listen to it and give it to her. I don’t want to overload her with a ton of books though. she has 4 children and is pretty busy.
Malcolm McLean,
yes, Jesus broke bread with His deciples, what I meant, though was they sit and eat candy and drink coffee during church. It just seems very irreverent to me. But the whole fasting before communion thing is for a WHOLE nother thread! That one really gets her going.
So the things Jesus said at the last supper, were they set passover prayers? I know very little about the passover.
tomarin, what do I say in reply if she says, “well saying those prayers may work for you, but they do not work for me. It’s impossible for me to pray that way?”
T
tomarin
Guest
tell her to pray however she feels is right. at least she’s praying.
if she has a hostile curiosity towards catholicism, there’s not much else you can do than patiently try to explain what she’s got wrong. with charity and humility, of course. and love.
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SueKrum
Guest
hostile curiosity, that’s a good word
And yes, I try to always do it with love, but sometimes, that’s a lot harder than it sounds.
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
As I wrote earlier she really needs a conversion from worshipping herself to worshipping God. Does anyone really think that the Lord of the Universe, the only One who really is Life itself, worries about how we think we want to worship Him? If He did He would not have instructed Adam and Eve concerning what they must and must not do. This is His world not ours. I feel sorry for your sister.I am responding the part I bolded,
My sister claims that God is not a god of rituels. I always have a strong desire to point to some of the old testament rituels to prove other wize, but to her, the old testament is just something to remember how things used to be. this is the new covenent, no law, no sacrafices, no rituels. Just Jesus died for sins. And when He’s in our hearts, we’ll want to do the right thing. (but since there’s no law, what is the right thing?
I really appriciate all your responses and I’ve been reading over the materials. I think I may get one of those Hahn CD’s and listen to it and give it to her. I don’t want to overload her with a ton of books though. she has 4 children and is pretty busy.
Malcolm McLean,
yes, Jesus broke bread with His deciples, what I meant, though was they sit and eat candy and drink coffee during church. It just seems very irreverent to me. But the whole fasting before communion thing is for a WHOLE nother thread! That one really gets her going.
So the things Jesus said at the last supper, were they set passover prayers? I know very little about the passover.
tomarin, what do I say in reply if she says, “well saying those prayers may work for you, but they do not work for me. It’s impossible for me to pray that way?”
CDL
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jmcrae
Guest
Sorry, but how do people read the Bible (as they claim) and then come up with stuff like that? Nearly every page of the Bible contains either a reference to or a description of one or more of God’s rituals.
Are they just not paying attention to what they are reading? Or what?
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SueKrum
Guest
those are soem good thoughts. thanks. I feel sorry for her too.
A
az_4_faith
Guest
The Mass is ritualistic and uniform for good reason. We retain our unity in our worship and in the Holy Eucharist. The Mass isn’t haphazardly put together. Each and every word has a meaning, a history and a purpose. And we have the gift of predictability in our ritualistic worship. Don’t we like to know what to anticipate and expect?
My Catholic family spans the entire globe. I can go anywhere in the world and worship in a Catholic Church, and I’ll be familiar with the liturgy. The words may be in a foreign language, but the form is unified, at least pretty darn closely, give or take. Whether I’m in New York, Rome, Brazil, Mexico City, Los Angeles, Alaska, Japan, Korea, Vienna, etc. etc. etc. I’ll be familiar with the Mass. If I have my Sunday or daily missal with me, I can follow along and quietly respond in my own language. Even if I don’t understand the language of the homilist, I can listen closely and offer silent prayers.
And then, no matter where I am, I can receive the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, in a form I recognize and understand. At the Catholic Mass, Jesus, our Savior, Brother, Lover, Creator and Lord is waiting for us. Can’t find that Gift in any other Christian worship service.
So, thank God for the Mass. Yeah, some Catholics take it for granted, mumble the responses and look like their bored to tears. That’s sad, too. We have to become better educated and put some effort into our worship. Sometimes it’s easy to take the great gift that we have for granted.
I LOVE THE MASS!!
My Catholic family spans the entire globe. I can go anywhere in the world and worship in a Catholic Church, and I’ll be familiar with the liturgy. The words may be in a foreign language, but the form is unified, at least pretty darn closely, give or take. Whether I’m in New York, Rome, Brazil, Mexico City, Los Angeles, Alaska, Japan, Korea, Vienna, etc. etc. etc. I’ll be familiar with the Mass. If I have my Sunday or daily missal with me, I can follow along and quietly respond in my own language. Even if I don’t understand the language of the homilist, I can listen closely and offer silent prayers.
And then, no matter where I am, I can receive the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, in a form I recognize and understand. At the Catholic Mass, Jesus, our Savior, Brother, Lover, Creator and Lord is waiting for us. Can’t find that Gift in any other Christian worship service.
So, thank God for the Mass. Yeah, some Catholics take it for granted, mumble the responses and look like their bored to tears. That’s sad, too. We have to become better educated and put some effort into our worship. Sometimes it’s easy to take the great gift that we have for granted.
I LOVE THE MASS!!
C
Catolico_Ako
Guest
Prayer is a common rituals to all religions (except for some).
The Mass (a Sacrament) is the highest form of prayer, it connects to all the souls on earth, as it is in heaven. It is the central life for the Catholics. We don’t have to be biblicist or legalistic in our faith. Love is the essence of every religion, race and creed. It transcends every laws of man and the rigors and rubricks of every faith. Love conquers all. Rituals if fully meditated opens the heart of men. Religious and non-religious people perform rituals - i.e. sitting together at meals, blowing birthday candles, singing the national anthem, graduation ceremony, military drills, going to the bathroom, etc.
The Mass (a Sacrament) is the highest form of prayer, it connects to all the souls on earth, as it is in heaven. It is the central life for the Catholics. We don’t have to be biblicist or legalistic in our faith. Love is the essence of every religion, race and creed. It transcends every laws of man and the rigors and rubricks of every faith. Love conquers all. Rituals if fully meditated opens the heart of men. Religious and non-religious people perform rituals - i.e. sitting together at meals, blowing birthday candles, singing the national anthem, graduation ceremony, military drills, going to the bathroom, etc.
I am responding the part I bolded,
My sister claims that God is not a god of rituels. I always have a strong desire to point to some of the old testament rituels to prove other wize, but to her, the old testament is just something to remember how things used to be. this is the new covenent, no law, no sacrafices, no rituels. Just Jesus died for sins. And when He’s in our hearts, we’ll want to do the right thing. (but since there’s no law, what is the right thing?
I really appriciate all your responses and I’ve been reading over the materials. I think I may get one of those Hahn CD’s and listen to it and give it to her. I don’t want to overload her with a ton of books though. she has 4 children and is pretty busy.
Malcolm McLean,
yes, Jesus broke bread with His deciples, what I meant, though was they sit and eat candy and drink coffee during church. It just seems very irreverent to me. But the whole fasting before communion thing is for a WHOLE nother thread! That one really gets her going.
So the things Jesus said at the last supper, were they set passover prayers? I know very little about the passover.
tomarin, what do I say in reply if she says, “well saying those prayers may work for you, but they do not work for me. It’s impossible for me to pray that way?”
C
Cat
Guest
Just my opinion, for what it’s worth. (I’m ex-evangelical Protestant, converted to Catholicism in 2004.)
I wouldn’t give her a tape or a book. If she has small children, she doesn’t have time.
I wouldn’t even respond to her observations. Instead, I would smile and say nothing and be pleasant and say a prayer for her silently.
If she asks you a question, certainly you should answer it.
But if she is just making observations or stating her opinion, just let it be and pray for her.
She is guilty of the sin of judging others by appearances. You don’t have to tell her. The Holy Spirit will do that.
I used to judge everyone, and the Holy Spirit went to work bringing me into contact with people who demonstrated that I was wrong to judge!
For example, once I attended a planning meeting of a Christian Women’s Club. I had my own two small children, who were about 4 and 2 at the time, plus I was taking care of an African American baby.
When I arrived at the meeting, everyone except me was dressed fancy. All of them were older with no little ones. One lady in particular looked like the Queen of England in her extremely expensive dress and perfect makeup. I immediately assumed that she wouldn’t even speak to me, let alone help me with all the kids.
Well, I was wrong. She was the first woman to step forward, and she held the African American baby and fed her (fancy dress and all!) so that I would be able to hold my own two kids and concentrate on the meeting. She certainly was a Queen–a queen of kindness and love!
This kept happening over and over again, and eventually I learned my lesson about judging people!
The same thing will happen to your sister eventually.
BTW, you said she’s busy with little ones. That’s one reason I say not to get involved in any kind of debate. It’s just not a good time for her to think logically. Wait a few years. For now, just keep spending time with her to keep her in touch with grownups!
One thing you could do is buy her a book of prayers. DON’T buy her a Catholic book of prayers. Go to the local Protestant book store and ask for a book of Protestant prayers and poems by Christian women. There are lots of books like this that contain prayers/poems by ancient and modern women.
Our local rescue mission (Protestant, with a WRITTEN statement forbidding Catholics from being board members) gave out such a prayer book last year during their annual fall appeal. So I KNOW that there are Protestant prayers books.
I think I’ve seen books called “Prayers for a New Mom” in Protestant books stores. Ask the clerks.
The prayers are very beautiful and uplifting. I used to LOVE to read these little devotional books while my children were small because I didn’t have a lot of time to read long books. Tell your sister that you hope the book will be an encouragement to her as she’s raising little ones.
This will get her used to the idea that praying someone else’s prayers can be a way to worship the Lord and pray to Him. This isn’t something that only Catholics do. Everytime a Protestant sings a hymn they are doing a “written” prayer. And there are still lots of Protestant churches that recite the Lord’s Prayer every week. Some even recite written prayers like the prayer of St. Francis (Make me an instrument of your love, etc.) So it’s not just a Catholic thing.
Another thing you can do is to invite your sister to meet with some of your Catholic (female) friends from your church. Have a little luncheon or maybe a dessert party (with kids included). Perhaps when your sister she gets to know some other Catholic women, she will understand that these ladies really DO love the Lord and pray to Him.
Good luck.
I wouldn’t give her a tape or a book. If she has small children, she doesn’t have time.
I wouldn’t even respond to her observations. Instead, I would smile and say nothing and be pleasant and say a prayer for her silently.
If she asks you a question, certainly you should answer it.
But if she is just making observations or stating her opinion, just let it be and pray for her.
She is guilty of the sin of judging others by appearances. You don’t have to tell her. The Holy Spirit will do that.
I used to judge everyone, and the Holy Spirit went to work bringing me into contact with people who demonstrated that I was wrong to judge!
For example, once I attended a planning meeting of a Christian Women’s Club. I had my own two small children, who were about 4 and 2 at the time, plus I was taking care of an African American baby.
When I arrived at the meeting, everyone except me was dressed fancy. All of them were older with no little ones. One lady in particular looked like the Queen of England in her extremely expensive dress and perfect makeup. I immediately assumed that she wouldn’t even speak to me, let alone help me with all the kids.
Well, I was wrong. She was the first woman to step forward, and she held the African American baby and fed her (fancy dress and all!) so that I would be able to hold my own two kids and concentrate on the meeting. She certainly was a Queen–a queen of kindness and love!
This kept happening over and over again, and eventually I learned my lesson about judging people!
The same thing will happen to your sister eventually.
BTW, you said she’s busy with little ones. That’s one reason I say not to get involved in any kind of debate. It’s just not a good time for her to think logically. Wait a few years. For now, just keep spending time with her to keep her in touch with grownups!
One thing you could do is buy her a book of prayers. DON’T buy her a Catholic book of prayers. Go to the local Protestant book store and ask for a book of Protestant prayers and poems by Christian women. There are lots of books like this that contain prayers/poems by ancient and modern women.
Our local rescue mission (Protestant, with a WRITTEN statement forbidding Catholics from being board members) gave out such a prayer book last year during their annual fall appeal. So I KNOW that there are Protestant prayers books.
I think I’ve seen books called “Prayers for a New Mom” in Protestant books stores. Ask the clerks.
The prayers are very beautiful and uplifting. I used to LOVE to read these little devotional books while my children were small because I didn’t have a lot of time to read long books. Tell your sister that you hope the book will be an encouragement to her as she’s raising little ones.
This will get her used to the idea that praying someone else’s prayers can be a way to worship the Lord and pray to Him. This isn’t something that only Catholics do. Everytime a Protestant sings a hymn they are doing a “written” prayer. And there are still lots of Protestant churches that recite the Lord’s Prayer every week. Some even recite written prayers like the prayer of St. Francis (Make me an instrument of your love, etc.) So it’s not just a Catholic thing.
Another thing you can do is to invite your sister to meet with some of your Catholic (female) friends from your church. Have a little luncheon or maybe a dessert party (with kids included). Perhaps when your sister she gets to know some other Catholic women, she will understand that these ladies really DO love the Lord and pray to Him.
Good luck.
N
NotWorthy
Guest
In Isaiah, chapter 6, the author sees the heavenly angels repeating, "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts!" they cried one to the other. "All the earth is filled with his glory!" Yes, you’re right that is the Old Testament, so we can choose to ignore it (I’m just giving her the benefit of the doubt).I am responding the part I bolded,
My sister claims that God is not a god of rituels. I always have a strong desire to point to some of the old testament rituels to prove other wize, but to her, the old testament is just something to remember how things used to be. this is the new covenent, no law, no sacrafices, no rituels. Just Jesus died for sins. And when He’s in our hearts, we’ll want to do the right thing. (but since there’s no law, what is the right thing?
But then you get to Revelation, and what does John see in his Heavenly visions? The angels repeating, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.".
IMO your sister has to come up with a better excuse.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
How about something from the Bible?My sister has been on a RANT the last fiew weeks. She left the church as a teenager (in fact, she was never even confermed) she joined this protestent church in adulthood that was made up of a bunch of ex-cathoics who decided that NO tradition was needed. Not even traditional music. For example. they play secular music and eat snacks during service
My other sister just put her daughter through first communion and is on the oppisate side of the fense. she is OBSESSED with tradition and memorizing prayers and looking good infront of the entire congragation. She’s been bragging about how her daughter has every prayer memorized. Unfortunately, her daughter has no real understanding of the meaning behind those prayers.
so my protestent sister has used this new situation as the launching pad for her rant (every time we talk) about how stupid it is that mass is the same thing every week. How she feels like the fly by the seat of my pants prayer is much better for church and is more uplifting. She said that every time she hears catholics praying in church, it sounds like they are just reciting a bunch of words and they aren’t praying with their hearts. She also says that Jesus never intended for people to just be caught up in a bunch of rituals. There isn’t just one way to do things.
Now I know this is not the right way to think, but I am no good at explaining things to her. She’s so caught up in that whole mega-nondenominational-fundamentelest-church mentality, I am really at a loss what to say. I dread every conversation with her because she dominates the whole thing with her rants.
I was thinking it would be good to get her a CD of some kind. She’s not much of a reader, so I thought listening to someone talk would be a good idea. (lord knows it would be good for her to be on the receiving end for a change)
can anyone reccomend a good CD that would
obviously, all these questions are probably not answered on one single CD, but if there are a couple I can get that would help, that would be great.
- hilight some of the history behind the mass
- give some of the scriptural references for the mass
- explain the importance of the prayers said in mass
- help the listener understand why it’s irrevelent what other people are thinking during mass and how that has no bearing on the truth behind the traditions.
Any ideas? My sister is a fairly simple person, so something with a bunch of huge fancy words would not be very affective. Something for the common man would be great.
thanks
ps my very sanity depends upon me at least getting her to see my point of view.
Luke 11:2-4
2He said to them, "When you pray, say:
" ‘Father,a]
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=11&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-25400b”)]
3Give us each day our daily bread.
4Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.c]
And lead us not into temptation.d]’ "
Jesus didn’t say, “You might want to say something like the following”…he said, “When you pray, say” and he gave us precise words that have been repeated for 2,000 years. Is this “vain repetition”? Hardly.
Matthew 26:43-44
43When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.
Jesus prayed a third time saying the same things he had said previously. Is this “vain repetition”? Hardly.
Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings.Day and night they never stop saying: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.”
The creatures keep saying the same thing over and over and over again - day and night. Is this “vain repetition”? Hardly.
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
D
dessert
Guest
:yup:
:hug1:This is so true, Jesus did pray the same prayers and we are to follow him he left us with instructions. When the priest leads us in prayer at church I also say the words outloud in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit because I want God to hear me as well as know what I am thinking. I learned this from the first priest and during his part I said his verse quietly to myself.
When we are making the sign of the cross, it is a witness but without words it is just that without words. This is what our Jesus wanted in the garden to pray with out seizing. We have a lady at our parish who sits near me what a glorious soul, you see she can’t speak she signs. I watch her sign and am learning and can feel the prayer coming from her heart as I see her bow her head in prayer and kneel before the cross. If she could speak very loudly which I have heard her whisper but she can bearly I think she would tell her sister to be more greatful to repeat the Holy to the Lord and will be forever when she can get to the new heaven and receive her new voice, she brings tears to my eyes. Dessert
“Be Jesus, Share Jesus” Blessed Mother Teresa
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tomarin
Guest
i hear you. since i started going back to church, my father just won’t stop talking about the da vinci code as if it were some kind of authoritative guide to catholicism. this is the man who had me baptised when i was an infant!
the first time he brought it up i became apoplectic, but with time i’ve learned to remain calm and either refute the points he’s making or just laugh it off as an absurdity. he’s trying to goad me into an argument and if i get too passionate about it i will end up “disrespecting” him, which i don’t want to do since he’s my father after all.
in your sister’s case, as i said, you may not be able to reason with her. just try to remain calm and if my experience is any guide, dealing with her charitably will become easier.
G
Gamera
Guest
Jesus Himself recited “the same prayers every week” as a devout Jew.
Just because a prayer is written in advance doesn’t make it mindless. My wedding vows were written in advance — I didn’t make them up on the spot — but when I recited them, I meant every word from the heart. How sad that anybody in the audience would have thought I was just performing mindless recitation when in fact I was pouring out my heart.
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NotWorthy
Guest
I love the Prayer of St. Francis, for it helps to remind me some of the things I should do to be a good Christian.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love.
Where there is injury, pardon.
Where there is doubt, faith
Where there is despair, hope,
Where there is darkness, light.
And where there is sadness, joy.
All of that prayer is very beautiful!!!
Where there is hatred, let me sow love.
Where there is injury, pardon.
Where there is doubt, faith
Where there is despair, hope,
Where there is darkness, light.
And where there is sadness, joy.
All of that prayer is very beautiful!!!
N
NotWorthy
Guest
Sitting in Mass and listening to the Beautiful Prayers and having my soul lifted up to the Lord…
And then reflecting on how these same prayers used to put me to sleep due to boredome…
I’m reminded of the woman who’s hemhorraging was cured because she reached out and touched Jesus. Other’s bumped into him and were not cured, but she reached out!!!
If you’re not getting anything out of all of those boring repetitive prayers, it’s because you’re NOT reaching out to Jesus.
And then reflecting on how these same prayers used to put me to sleep due to boredome…
I’m reminded of the woman who’s hemhorraging was cured because she reached out and touched Jesus. Other’s bumped into him and were not cured, but she reached out!!!
If you’re not getting anything out of all of those boring repetitive prayers, it’s because you’re NOT reaching out to Jesus.
W
water
Guest
Your protestant sister will have problem in Heaven where we would say many same thing not only every Sunday but every second, minute.
Ask her if she still wants to go to Heaven.
:harp:
Ask her if she still wants to go to Heaven.
:harp:
B
BlestOne
Guest
Sue,
About reciting prayers…
When my kids were little I was so proud when they learned their prayers. I didn’t expect them to understand them yet because they were children and I needed to teach them about the prayers. It is like learning the ABC’s and being criticized for not being able to read…one step at a time!!! Gosh I was totally impressed when my daughter was 18 months and could say grace. I just can’t picture an 18 month old knowing what the words meant… she is 15 yo now and has gotten past the meaning phase and can now say it in Latin and Spanish (Thank you Catholic Schools!!!), but I don’t expect her to understand the Latin and Spanish words exactly… she is in her first year of Latin and Spanish. Learning is a lifelong process!
I think I would hit your sister with that. Gently explain to her that to teach the prayers and what they mean we have to start with the words first, much as we can’t read until we know the alphabet.
As for your other sister being too into her “Catholicity”… I laughed because I am often accused of that myself. When we were at my sisters house visiting we decided to order pizza for dinner. WHen the pizza came, I called all the kids into the kitchen since we were doing the very informal and kids and adults were eating in different rooms, and I told them it was time for prayers. My sisters kids whispered to their mom and my sister laughed and asked, “We pray for pizza?” to which I replied in the affirmative, “We pray for pizza!” My kids thought this was a hoot. I was sad that my sister asked. So anyway, a year later my brother comes to visit me. We had a great time. After he left my place, he drove to her place (15 hours away) to stay for a few days. He told my sister he had a great visit but that we pray too much… of course my sister had to call me and relate this after the pizza incident the year before. I am not unhappy that my family thinks we pray too much, I am sad that they don’t pray enough … But I will say, at least they are noticing the difference in our prayer lives. And nobody but nobody in my family can dispute that my oldest is a very special very devout young man… and at 20 yo too!!! Now that is leaving a mark!!!
About reciting prayers…
When my kids were little I was so proud when they learned their prayers. I didn’t expect them to understand them yet because they were children and I needed to teach them about the prayers. It is like learning the ABC’s and being criticized for not being able to read…one step at a time!!! Gosh I was totally impressed when my daughter was 18 months and could say grace. I just can’t picture an 18 month old knowing what the words meant… she is 15 yo now and has gotten past the meaning phase and can now say it in Latin and Spanish (Thank you Catholic Schools!!!), but I don’t expect her to understand the Latin and Spanish words exactly… she is in her first year of Latin and Spanish. Learning is a lifelong process!
I think I would hit your sister with that. Gently explain to her that to teach the prayers and what they mean we have to start with the words first, much as we can’t read until we know the alphabet.
As for your other sister being too into her “Catholicity”… I laughed because I am often accused of that myself. When we were at my sisters house visiting we decided to order pizza for dinner. WHen the pizza came, I called all the kids into the kitchen since we were doing the very informal and kids and adults were eating in different rooms, and I told them it was time for prayers. My sisters kids whispered to their mom and my sister laughed and asked, “We pray for pizza?” to which I replied in the affirmative, “We pray for pizza!” My kids thought this was a hoot. I was sad that my sister asked. So anyway, a year later my brother comes to visit me. We had a great time. After he left my place, he drove to her place (15 hours away) to stay for a few days. He told my sister he had a great visit but that we pray too much… of course my sister had to call me and relate this after the pizza incident the year before. I am not unhappy that my family thinks we pray too much, I am sad that they don’t pray enough … But I will say, at least they are noticing the difference in our prayer lives. And nobody but nobody in my family can dispute that my oldest is a very special very devout young man… and at 20 yo too!!! Now that is leaving a mark!!!
M
Melanie01
Guest
uhh…we dont…and then there are the ones that are so beautiful how could you exclude them
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