WHY do you [if you do?] think the RCC is not the One true Church founded by Christ?

[LatinRight]

Vatican I and Vatican II need to be understood together. Vatican II did not cancel Vatican I, but clarified things in regard to valid Christians in situations that cause them to be in a separated state from the visible, on, true Catholic Church.

Dogma of the faith from Vatican I:

Session 4 : 18 July 1870

Chapter 1

1. Therefore, if anyone says that blessed Peter the apostle was not appointed by Christ the lord as prince of all the apostles and visible head of the whole Church militant; or that it was a primacy of honor only and not one of true and proper jurisdiction that he directly and immediately received from our lord Jesus Christ himself: let him be anathema.

Chapter 2

1. Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole Church; or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema.

Chapter 3

1. So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.

Chapter 4

1. Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks*ex cathedra, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.

So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.

God bless Rcwitness,

I like to show you Rcwitness some fruits of the works of the successors of Peter; teachers of all Christians, definers of doctrines concerning faith or morals to be held by in the “ only One Church.” – As you described it (only One Church) in your post # 540.

Catechism of the Catholic Church.

1813 … They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. …

1821 … In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere “to the end” and **to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works ** accomplished with the grace of Christ. …

2010 … Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. …

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

The above fruits of the works of the successors of Peter ** Glorify their Works, their Authority and their Theological Knowledge, exalts the Catholic religion and assures the salvation of the Catholic people!!!**

The above** fruits **of the works of the successors of Peter are positive proof of their apostolic successions and also positive proof the RCC is The Only One True Church.

God bless,

LatinRight

 

[rinnie]

God bless Rinnie,

I don’t saying that at all.

Because the RCC declared CCC 818, 819, 1271, etc. the Protestant, Anglican and

Orthodox Churches became true Churches, **the RCC didn’t lose even an iota (lost

nothing at all), still has the fullness of the truth, this is not changed.**

As the Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox Churches became true Churches, the RCC is

a True Church. ** - Cannot be One True Church when the other Churches are True

Churches as well.**

God bless,

LatinRight

This is not correct, In order to be the ONE true Church they must have the 4 marks.

One = all the same teaching, All of those Church’s have different teachings from one another.

Apostolic has Apostolic succession, which means has the laying of hands given to them by a Bishop who can trace it back to the Apostles.

Just because other Church’s are true Church’s. They are not the ONE TRUE CHURCH that was started by Christ himself.

In order to be the ONE true Church you must also have all 7 Sacraments.

One of the Sacraments is Holy Orders which is Apostolic Succession.

 

[rinnie]

God bless Wannano,

I send you some paragraphs of the CCC

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. .
All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church:** “For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church**.” “Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.”

The RCC officially teach the Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox Churches are True Churches and their members Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church!!!

God bless

LatinRight

What you are saying here us true, the RCC teaches they are true Church’s because of the truth that they have.

But you are still not showing me where the RCC states that these Church’s are the ONE true Church. ITs that word ONE I am looking for.

Also if you read 1271 of the CCC it shows we have a sacramental bond and unity as Christians from Baptism, to all Christians including those who are NOT YET in full COMMUNION with the CC.

So how can these Church’s be considered the ONE true Church if they are not in full communion with the ONE TRUE CHURCH. Thanks Latin

 

[rinnie]

We receive the actual sacrificed Lamb of God in our heart and lives when we accept the fact that He has accepted us, then we strive to make Him Lord and Master. There is no need to receive over and over again when He is there all the time. Communion is a beautiful reminder of what He gave to accomplish our salvation. Like He instructed “do this in remembrance of me.”

We obviously have different understandings but are still brothers! At least for my part! And there is no way I am insisting you need to adopt my concept to be saved either.

See this is the problem that we have different understandings. That is why Jesus left his Apostles and their successors to make sure that there is one truth, and one understanding, That is why there is ONE true Church.

But what I think the point of this thread is this, Jesus started the One True Church and has given Peter and his successors the fullness of his truth,.

We are not saying God can work outside of the visual Church, but where the problem comes is this, NO ONE is saying God is held to any bounds, He can work through whoever whenever where ever he chooses,

The question is why do you think the RCC is NOT the One true Church. I do not believe anyone has given a true answer to that.

They keep saying that they can be saved … That is not what the thread is asking, it is not saying can God saved people anyway he wants. It is asking why do you think the RCC is not the one true Church started by Christ. A question no one seems to answer.

 

[PJM]

Hello Patrick,

 Would you mind going into detail by what you mean by one true church and what benefits you hope to gain by being a member of the one true church.  Jesus said many times that we will be judged in the same way we judge others.

My dear friend n Christ,
While I have not personally responded too many of your POST, I am reading them.
PLEASE do not be offended by the question I’m about to ask.
I believe firmly in Divine Providence; and just completed the latest Lesson of my weekly series: the ABC’s Of Catholicism, which dealt with the right and necessary formation for Ones Conscience. I was then prompted by the HS to add an optional set of readings on Scrupulosity [OCD].
Is OCD an issue with you?
Hello Patrick,

Would you mind going into detail by what you mean by one true church and what benefits you hope to gain by being a member of the one true church. Jesus said many times that we will be judged in the same way we judge others.

Thank you for asking.

Are you aware that the CAF FORUM limits the size of our POST? I share this because my reply *, might exceed that space-limit, so that it may have to be split up unless your willing to share an E-Mail address that we can use? Your choice.
Mine is:

patrickmiron66@hotmail,com

I will begin to formulate a full response for you ASAP

ALSO, can you share a bit of of your Faith formation history with me?

And finally I am not a physiologist, theologian or a philosopher. What I am though is a trained, tested, certified Marian Catechist, a Lay Apostolate founded by the Late Father John A. Hardon S.J.; one of the 20th Centuries most respected theologian and Catholic Teachers, who was a part-time mentor to me,.and I have been teaching and sharing our beautiful Catholic Faith for nearly 30 years now.

God Bless you

Patrick [PJM] on CAF*

 

[Wannano]

See this is the problem that we have different understandings. That is why Jesus left his Apostles and their successors to make sure that there is one truth, and one understanding, That is why there is ONE true Church.

But what I think the point of this thread is this, Jesus started the One True Church and has given Peter and his successors the fullness of his truth,.

We are not saying God can work outside of the visual Church, but where the problem comes is this, NO ONE is saying God is held to any bounds, He can work through whoever whenever where ever he chooses,

The question is why do you think the RCC is NOT the One true Church. I do not believe anyone has given a true answer to that.

They keep saying that they can be saved … That is not what the thread is asking, it is not saying can God saved people anyway he wants. It is asking why do you think the RCC is not the one true Church started by Christ. A question no one seems to answer.

You are right in my case…I actually thought I had given a reply inthe beginning and now I see I didnt. I don’t at this time know how to put it so many words. I have made statements on other posts about what I think and quite often get challenged by zealous Catholic responders who point out that it does not matter what I think (which is what this question asks) but what matters is what the one true Church tells you and me that we should think.

 

[rinnie]

You are right in my case…I actually thought I had given a reply inthe beginning and now I see I didnt. I don’t at this time know how to put it so many words. I have made statements on other posts about what I think and quite often get challenged by zealous Catholic responders who point out that it does not matter what I think (which is what this question asks) but what matters is what the one true Church tells you and me that we should think.

I don’t believe anyone can tell us what we should think, as you and I both know no one can do that. God gave us a mind to use.

The RCC has never taught us this is what we should think, at least it never did that to me,and I would hope others never thought that way.

But what the RCC does do is explain to us what Jesus taught. They never gave us scripture and then not explain to us what Jesus meant by what he wrote.

Because think of it this way, Jesus left us teachers to explain to us what his scripture means, the bible itself states we cannot interpret scripture on our own, not because we do not have a brain and cannot think for ourself, the Church left teachers to let us know exactly what Jesus meant when he said it.

What good would it do to give us a truth, but then let us twist it into what we believe it could mean, or should mean, it would be taking a truth and making it a false.

So the Church never tells us what to think, but it does explain to us exactly what Jesus taugh. Then we think about it and try to live our life accordingly.

 

[Peter_J]

God bless Rinnie,

I don’t saying that at all.

Because the RCC declared CCC 818, 819, 1271, etc. the Protestant, Anglican and

Orthodox Churches became true Churches, **the RCC didn’t lose even an iota (lost

nothing at all), still has the fullness of the truth, this is not changed.**

As the Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox Churches became true Churches, the RCC is

a True Church. ** - Cannot be One True Church when the other Churches are True

Churches as well.**

God bless,

LatinRight

I believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

 

[Peter_J]

That’s actually quite an interesting thing for the Cardinal to say… It’s kind of extreme! But he must be quite convicted of that statement, since he no doubt has put a lot of devotion into inter-communion relations and dialogue efforts. Perhaps it came during an exhausted point of effort… ?

This perhaps goes without saying, but I’ll say anyhow that it should be read within the larger context of all that the Cardinal has said.

 

[Peter_J]

I have made statements on other posts about what I think and quite often get challenged by zealous Catholic responders who point out that it does not matter what I think

I know I’ve said something along those lines numerous times … Not exactly that it doesn’t matter what anyone says (that wouldn’t just be overly strong but a bit impolite IMO) but that it has NO bearing on whether something is Catholic teaching or not.

That is why discussion forums can be incredibly frustrating: inevitably people will see something posted and say/think “That was posted on a Catholic discussion forum, so that means it is Catholic teaching right?” Sorrybut no; if it was already Catholic teaching it still is, of course, but if it isn’t then being posted on a discussion forum does not and cannot make it so.

 

[Wannano]

I know I’ve said something along those lines numerous times … Not exactly that it doesn’t matter what anyone says (that wouldn’t just be overly strong but a bit impolite IMO) but that it has NO bearing on whether something is Catholic teaching or not.

That is why discussion forums can be incredibly frustrating: inevitably people will see something posted and say/think “That was posted on a Catholic discussion forum, so that means it is Catholic teaching right?” Sorrybut no; if it was already Catholic teaching it still is, of course, but if it isn’t then being posted on a discussion forum does not and cannot make it so.

Who would you say is the ultimate determiner of what the CCC is saying, when, as it seems to me it appears nebulous and can be taken different ways. Even priests have different understandings of some such in my experience.

Example: recent posts concerning in persona Christi…some say the priest becomes Christ at certain times, others say, no, he doesn’t. The CCC says the priest acts in the Person of Christ at those times. Whatever does that mean? Both sides use the CCC to validate their position.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I have made statements on other posts about what I think and quite often get challenged by zealous Catholic responders who point out that it does not matter what I think

Actually, you would do very well in a conversation/dialogue with a Catholic theologian, as opposed to the operating level of this forum.

 

[Wannano]

Actually, you would do very well in a conversation/dialogue with a Catholic theologian, as opposed to the operating level of this forum.

I am honored that you have responded to me. I have missed your (name removed by moderator)ut this last while. I am taking to heart your suggestion just not sure where I find such a person that may have the time.
I am open to a private message from you if wish.
Thank you.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

That’s actually quite an interesting thing for the Cardinal to say… It’s kind of extreme! But he must be quite convicted of that statement, since he no doubt has put a lot of devotion into inter-communion relations and dialogue efforts. Perhaps it came during an exhausted point of effort… ?

Cardinal Kasper is one of the greatest theologians of his generation. He is to be universally praised and lauded for all that he has done in a lifetime. His point in this instance was an ecclesiological one between our various churches.

Thankfully, through the enlightenment of the College of Bishops by the Holy Spirit and through the work of the theological community, we have a profoundly different vision of ecclesiology than what we had in decades or centuries past. Just as today we have a radically different understanding of history.

Those who have actually worked over the years since 1964 with the dialogue, as opposed to some that one can read in this post or that, are quite aware of just where we are arrived to, which is quite far, and also where we are going relative to Catholic and Orthodox relations.

The level of PCPCU is important…in distinction to the insignificance of anonymous internet fora.

It is rather just as the Catholic Church around the world is commemorating the 5th centenary of the Reformation in a joint commemoration…without any regard for whether or not this individual or that consents, does not consent, or is even angry or completely ignorant.

 

[Wannano]

[/So the Church never tells us what to think, but it does explain to us exactly what Jesus taugh. Then we think about it and try to live our life accordingly.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Wannano]

God bless Rcwitness,

I like to show you Rcwitness some fruits of the works of the successors of Peter; teachers of all Christians, definers of doctrines concerning faith or morals to be held by in the “ only One Church.” – As you described it (only One Church) in your post # 540.

Catechism of the Catholic Church.

1813 … They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. …

1821 … In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere “to the end” and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. …

2010 … Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. …

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

The above fruits of the works of the successors of Peter ** Glorify their Works, their Authority and their Theological Knowledge**, exalts the Catholic religion and assures the salvation of the Catholic people!!!

The above** fruits **of the works of the successors of Peter are positive proof of their apostolic successions and also positive proof the RCC is The Only One True Church.

God bless,

LatinRight

For sake of clarity here would you spell out what you are presenting? I am a little lost.

 

[PJM]

this is not correct, in order to be the one true church they must have the 4 marks.

One = all the same teaching, all of those church’s have different teachings from one another.

Apostolic has apostolic succession, which means has the laying of hands given to them by a bishop who can trace it back to the apostles.

Just because other church’s are true church’s. They are not the one true church that was started by christ himself.

In order to be the one true church you must also have all 7 sacraments.

One of the sacraments is holy orders which is apostolic succession.

for those who my not know:
The 4 [four] marks of the rcc are

1 one

2 holy

3 catholic

4 & apostolic

 

[PJM]

I don’t believe anyone can tell us what we should think, as you and I both know no one can do that. God gave us a mind to use.

God gives us a mind, intellect, & freewill that we CAN freely choose to Know [which then gravely obligates in the morality of a rightly informed conscience; to OBEY ALL that he demands and Desires]. to Love Him and to fully Serve His wishes ans His RCC Magisterium.

The RCC has never taught us this is what we should think, at least it never did that to me,and I would hope others never thought that way.

So then my friend what are RCC Doctrine & Dogma? And what about what the Magisterium teaches on the Bible? Is that optional?

But what the RCC does do is explain to us what Jesus taught. They never gave us scripture and then not explain to us what Jesus meant by what he wrote.

Because think of it this way, Jesus left us teachers to explain to us what his scripture means, the bible itself states we cannot interpret scripture on our own, not because we do not have a brain and cannot think for ourself, the Church left teachers to let us know exactly what Jesus meant when he said it

True and VERY true; but does it align with your first 2 statements?

GBY

Patrick

.

What good would it do to give us a truth, but then let us twist it into what we believe it could mean, or should mean, it would be taking a truth and making it a false.

So the Church never tells us what to think, but it does explain to us exactly what Jesus taugh. Then we think about it and try to live our life accordingly.

 

[PJM]

I don’t know of any Church out there that rejects the Communion Jesus speaks of in John 6. Is there a church you know of who does not practice Communion?

Peace, RC.

My friend if by the term “practice” you mean to infer RIGHT understanding; THEN even Christian Church except for the RCC and the Orthodox; aer not literally or FULLY obeying HIS COMMAND to 'Do this in memory of Me"

1 It takes Belief in the REAL Presence
READ literally: John 6:47-58 & 1st Cor, 11:23-30 [you can use this site to easily do so…
**www.drbo.org/

2 In order to actually [that is REALLY] make Jesus Himself Present requires Sacramental Ordination with only we Catholics and the Orthodox Churches have

3 And because we and the Orthodox DO have what is necessary, we CAN and DO receive the very REAL Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity [the entire Christ]; not "just’ his Spiritual Presence in OUR Holy Communion:thumbsup:

THERE IS TO BETTER, NO GREATER REASON TO BE AN INFORMED AND FULLY PRACTICING RCC

GBY

Patrick

 

[PJM]

quote Originally Posted by Wannano View Post
We receive the actual sacrificed Lamb of God in our heart and lives when we accept the fact that He has accepted us, then we strive to make Him Lord and Master. There is no need to receive over and over again when He is there all the time. Communion is a beautiful reminder of what He gave to accomplish our salvation. Like He instructed “do this in remembrance of me.” enf quote]

INSERTED BY PJM : couldn’t locate your post:blush:

Catholic & Orthodox Holy Communion is FAR more than a mere reminder; FAr more than a sign or a symbol; it is literally JESUS CHRIST IN PERSON

Please reread literally: John 6: 47-58 & 1st Cor, 11:23-30

We obviously have different understandings but are still brothers! At least for my part! And there is no way I am insisting you need to adopt my concept to be saved either.

While largely true, I find this position to be very incomplete. GOD gave to His Church; HIS One TRUE Faith & its 7 Sacraments which are an inestimable GIFT & source of the essential grace needed to actually attain one’s Personal salvation. This REALITY gives Catholics and Orthodox a HUGE advantage because we seek salvation in line with wjat GOD commands and demand and makes possible to US; but not outside of the Catholic & Orthodox churches.

I AN NOT saying salvation outside of the RCC is impossible; I AM saying it is FAR less likely and Highly conditional.

Here is the site for our catechism where you can look up [and please DO So]

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

CCC 1260
CCC 846
CCC 847
CCC 848

See this is the problem that we have different understandings. That is why Jesus left his Apostles and their successors to make sure that there is one truth, and one understanding, That is why there is ONE true Church.

But what I think the point of this thread is this, Jesus started the One True Church and has given Peter and his successors the fullness of his truth,.

We are not saying God can work outside of the visual Church, but where the problem comes is this, NO ONE is saying God is held to any bounds, He can work through whoever whenever where ever he chooses,

The question is why do you think the RCC is NOT the One true Church. I do not believe anyone has given a true answer to that.

They keep saying that they can be saved … That is not what the thread is asking, it is not saying can God saved people anyway he wants. It is asking why do you think the RCC is not the one true Church started by Christ. A question no one seems to answer.

**AS THE OP OF THIS THREAD **

**yesterday I had a PM request to provide “in detail” the evidence om my OPQ

I have done so, and will make it available to ANYONE who is willing to send me by PM, an E-MAIL address that we can use, as it FAR exceeds the prudent limits of this FORUM

God Bless you, PJM

Patrick the OP**