WHY do you [if you do?] think the RCC is not the One true Church founded by Christ?

[steve_b]

That is the opinion of one bishop, not necessarily the whole Eastern Orthodox Church. AFAIK, the EO accept the phrase “through the Son” but not “from the Son”. If Roman Catholics accept “through the Son” and if they want to unite with the EO Church, why don’t they change the creed to read “through the Son” ?

This needs a response.

Bp Ware is correct. He understands what is being said at Florence.

Evidence for that, was in my response to prodromos #162

specifically, from that link

from Florence

*“some saying the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, others saying the procession is from the Father through the Son. All were aiming at the same meaning in different words. The Greeks asserted that when they claim that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, they do not intend to exclude the Son; but because it seemed to them that the Latins assert that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from two principles and two spirations, they refrained from saying that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son…”

What is underlined, is the misunderstanding the Orthodox have.* We don’t believe in 2 principles nor 2 spirations.

 

[prodromos]

What is underlined, is the misunderstanding the Orthodox have*.* We don’t believe in 2 principles nor 2 spirations.

The above forces the Holy Spirit to proceed not from the persons but from the essence of God, and this is where it falls into heresy.

 

[LatinRight]

Originally Posted by peter26 View Post
Quote; The one true church is the universal church of all believers. The alternative to this view is a sort of theological elitism whereby we all say our church is the “true” church and all others are not churches at all. Which is a divisive and unreasonable attitude. All Christians are part of the one true church of God. ** [End quote]**

PJM’S answer:
That is a common and an illogical; improvable TRUTH, IF, if, by that claim you mean to imply salvation is assured simply [and alone] by what EACH church chooses to believe.

There is a huge-multiplicity of “churches” .simply BECAUSE NO CHURCH can be separated from that Church’s chosen set of Faith beliefs. Because tuth can be nothing other than singular per defined issue; one then must conclude that the SET of “faith-beliefs” on ONLY one of them IS God’s truth; the reast man’s chosen understanding of them.

GBY

God bless PJM,

According to the teachings of the RCC, Christ founded the Body of Christ/RCC.

At the foundation of the Body of Christ/RCC, the Body of Christ and the RCC was the same.

But today, after 2,000 or even about a 1,000 years, the RCC is only a part of the Body of Christ the One True Church.

According to CCC 818, 819, 1271.
The One True Church is the RCC + The members of every Christian denomination.

Theologically speaking; all believers/elect makes up the Body of Christ which is The One True Church.

**Many Catholics know the identity of the One True Church and who are the members of it.

FOR EXAMPLE

Rcwitness, Post # 9**

Quote: All believers are part of the one true Church of God. End quote.

Eamonnroma, Post # 22

Quote: I am glad that you put RCC in your question, not just ‘catholic church’.

I believe that Christ founded the Catholic Church, and that the Roman CC is part of that

catholic church, as are the various orthodox churches. They are all equal. End quote. Emphasis added.

PPeterson, Post # 27

Addressed to Patrick.
Quote: You’re working backwards to reconcile “RCC is the one true Church founded by Christ.” End quote. Emphasis added.

To believe the RCC is the One True Church is lack a of knowledge of the identity of the Body of Christ.

THEOLOGICAL FACT

All believers/elect are part of the One True Church of God, the Body of Christ. – Their salvation is Eternally Assured.

If a Catholic rejects the above teachings of the RCC, reject a I]DE FIDE Dogma of the RCC.

I believe Patrick you should rethink your position that the RCC is the One True Church

and start to believe, **the RCC is a part of the One True Church, because the Body of

Christ made up from all God’s children/elect.**

Catholic (Universal) Church [Not the RCC for a very long time.] = Body of Christ.

This is above the teachings of CCC 818, 819, 1271 and the teachings of the RCC DE FIDE Dogma The predestination of the elect.

Peter26, Post # 8

Quote: The one true church is the universal church of all believers.

**The alternative to this view is a sort of theological elitism whereby we all say our church is

the “true” church and all others are not churches at all. Which is a divisive and unreasonable attitude.**

**All Christians **are part of the one true church of God. End quote. Emphasis added.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

Collectively as the Body of Christ we may know all teachings of Christ and we can teach it

but if would be a condition to know all Christ’s teachings individually to enter to heaven, we all would end up in hell.

EXAMPLES FROM THE SET OF “FAITH-BELIEFS” OF THE TEACHINGS OF THE RCC (GOD’S TRUTH)

**Some very good and clear teachings of the RCC what we all should know and to teach everyone, in particular Protestants.

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE? by James Akin**

Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly

encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed

faith, one is justified. Period. End quote. Emphasis mine.

**Sola fide formata = (formed) FAITH ALONE
THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FORMED FAITH:

a. BELIEF (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.)

b. HOPE (Unconditional TRUST in God.)

c. CHARITY (Unconditional LOVE for God.)**

Every God’s child/elect at baptism, is a recipient of the above free gift of God’s formed faith.

**God’s children/elect AT BAPTISM IRREVOCABLY saved by God’s free gift of formed

faith alone and God’s free gift of Final Perseverance.**

HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier

Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan

Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985

Quote: “There is **ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED? **

We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.”

End quote. Emphasis mine.

**JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATIO by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church **

3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts

as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.

4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in

Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is **

NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.**

4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For

without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a

human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying

grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s

unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.

4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love -

FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS. End quite. Emphasis mine.

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect**

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.

End quote Emphasis added.

God bless Patrick,

LatinRight

 

[PJM]

Why can’t we look at all Christians as the brothers and sisters in Christ.

The body of Christ is like a tree. It has many branches, supported by its roots, belonging to the head (Christ).

Please note that due to the length of this REPLY it will be in 2 consecutive POST

Pt 1 of 2

Thank you

That is a fair question

The Brief answer is that such was not GOD’s will. Please read on

Not one place in the bible; OT / NT, is there testimony or evidence that GOD even one time desired, approved of, accepted, or even tolerated without consequences any competing faith beliefs.

The reason for this is “The Truth”, which can only be singular per defined issue.

The Bible, which BTW is a Catholic book. It was the first Catholics /Christians who guided by the HS selected the 66 OT books to be included, and it was the first Catholics /Christians that authored the 27 book, entire NT.

When the Church; “MY CHURCH” singular** Mt 16:18,** was first founded it was termed “The WAY”

Acts 24:14
But this I confess to thee, that according to the way, which they call a heresy, so do I serve the Father and my God, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets:

**Acts.9:2 “**and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem”

Not too long after its beginning “The Way” was changed to “Christians”

Acts.11: 26 and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church, and taught a large company of people; and in Antioch the disciples were for the first time called Christians.

And shortly after that the term was changed for the last time around 105 AD to “Catholics”

CATHOLIC. Its original meaning of “general” or “universal” has taken on a variety of applications in the course of Christian history. First used by St. Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 35-107) (Letter to the Smyrneans, 8, 2), it is now mainly used in five recognized senses: 1. the Catholic Church as distinct from Christian ecclesiastical bodies that do not recognize the papal primacy; 2. the Catholic faith as the belief of the universal body of the faithful, namely that which is believed “everywhere, always, and by all”

So the early “Christians: were in fact the early Catholics. There were no other Christians until the early 6th Century, when a few of the Eastern Churches broke away from both Antioch & Rome; and the major Schism of the Orthodox churches from Rome in 1054 AD.

This is verifiable historically & biblically.

God with complete consistency desired exactly what he Founded:
Belief in just

One True God Triune Exo 6:7

One set of Faith beliefs [even God can have more than one set of faith beliefs]

And Only One True Church today’s RCC

Deut.7: 11 You shall therefore be careful to do [OBEY] the commandments, and the statutes, and the ordinances, which I command you this day.

**Eph.4 Verses 1 to 7 **“I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one BODY [CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one FAITH [SET OF FAITH BELIEFS] one baptism, one GOD [TRIUNE] and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace [AND WITH IT RIGHT UNDERSTANDING] was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

No “church” CAN be separated from the freely chosen set of faith beliefs of THAT church; thus we have the great-multiplicity of “churches” in the non-Catholic arena based on differing beliefs & Just One True Church, as desired, Founded, guided and Protected by the HS with Jesus Himself as the Personal warranty of this fact. Hence after 2,000 years there is just One set of Catholic Faith beliefs, through 23 fully aligned churches.

Please read the following with care to NOTE the singular tense terms the HS guided authors of the NT choose to use.

Mt 10:1-2; 5-8
Matt.10: 1 to 2 And he called to him his twelve disciples AND GAVE THEM AUTHORITY over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity. The names of the twelve apostles are these: FIRST SIMON who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb’edee, and John his brother & 5-8 “THESE TWELVE [directly and exclusively] Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And preach as you go, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons

This was changed by Jesus in Mt 28:18-19 to “YOU go to the whole world and teach them ALL that I taught [commanded] YOU. Again direct, precise and exclusive to the 12 Apostles & by absolute necessity, their successors in order to be able to fulfill the COMMAND.

Jesus praying to the Father: Jn 17: 17-20 “John.17: 17 to 20 “Sanctify THEM in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send ME into the world, so I HAVE SENT THEM [DIRECTLY, PRECISLY & EXCLUSIVELY] the world. And for THEIR sake I consecrate MYSELF, that they also may be consecrated IN [MY] TRUTH. "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,

No other church, or faith can make this claim that Jesus is the Personal warranty of their faith-belief- teachings and prove it except the RCC.
End of pt 1

 

[PJM]

Why can’t we look at all Christians as the brothers and sisters in Christ

START of pt 2 of 2

Why not see the Catholic Church as a root that branches out to all these different denominations (each with their attributes–of strength and weakness

I pray this is answered above

Those that bear fruit, the Father prunes, so that they bear more fruit. And if a Church does not bear fruit then it can’t be Christian; for all are of the same vine, with Christ is the life of the vine. A Church either abides within him or doesn’t. Let the works of a Church speak for themselves

No dear friend. NOT of the “same vine” If & when we consider that “vine” to be one’s faith beliefs. One God, just One set of Faith beliefs & through just one Church hierarchy is what Jesus desired and Founded & protects.

Remember, the disciples came up to Jesus one day, and asked the Lord for a certain man that was preaching Jesus and curing the sick and do the works of the Lord; however, this certain man was not following Jesus with the disciples. And the Lord said to them do not prevent this man from his works; for whoever is for us cannot be against us

**Mt 16: 18-19 **“And I tell YOU you are Peter, and on [YOU PETER] this rock I will build MY CHURCH & FAITH SINGULAR], and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give YOU [all of the implied here] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound IN HEAVEN, and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be IN HEAVEN." ONCE AGAIN DIRECT, PRECISE & EXCLUSIVE.

**Mark.9: 40 **“For he that is not against us is for us”

Here my friend is the right understanding of this:
Because that person has done a good thing, there REMAINS Hope that he may yet be led to MY Truth. [SINGULAR]

The same is true with other denominations. Let the works speak for themselves; and you just may find that another denomination is headed by Christ

Life my friend is the GOD-TEST Isaiah 43: 7 &21

The RCC does not teach that there is NO salvation outside of Her embrace. However, it is certainly true that because of the Seven Sacraments; notably The Eucharist [REAL Presence /Jesus Himself in Person:** John 6:47-58 & 1st Cor, 11: 23-30 both of which are literal] & Sacramental Confession [SIN FORGIVENESS GOD’S WAY**: 1 Jn 1: 8-9; 1 Jn 5: 16-17; & John 20:19-23 all of which are literal truths, & because all 7 of the Sacraments are a source of God’s Grace; Catholics have a huge advantage; all because we choose to hear and OBEY what Jesus commanded & made possible. Are We to assume that GOD cannot do these good things?

Besides, before the Catholic Church came to be (there were in fact a multitude of denominations).

My friend I do not think this is a verifiable position. I indicated above the history of “The Way/ Christians & then by 105 Ad the term Catholic. Please SEARCH it yourself, and prove me to be in error.

Remember, the Lord was celebrated in peoples homes before they were celebrated within a temple. It’s just that as Christianity spread, a temple became necessary, in order to gather the faithful under one worship./
QUOTE]

Ahhhhh, OK, Now I see your point.

Here’s what you’re missing

1. In every-one of those “house-churches” was practiced the SAME identical set of FAITH –beliefs. There are MILLIONS of Catholic Church’s today [the natural EVOLUTION OF “HOUSE-CHURCHES” & ALL of them still practice the same set of FAITH-beliefs. The same cannot be said of the multiplicity of non-Catholic Christian churches.

1. NO Church can be separated from its FREELY chosen set of faith beliefs

1. Once Jesus Founded HIS RCC & set of faith beliefs:
   Pagans had their Temples
   Jews had their Synagogues
   Catholic-Christians had their Churches [Mt 16:18 “MY Church”]

1. “One Worship” MEANS ONLY-One Set of faith beliefs

Even if in the worship of homes was a sort of proto-church, leading to the Roman Church, you must understand that before the Catholic Church came to be, the pieces had to be gathered and set into place like a jigsaw puzzle, saying that this is the Church because of so-and-so tradition. In other words, the Catholic Church wasn’t built in a day. It all had to come together from the ways of the “proto-church”. Being gathered from it’s beginnings within people’s homes.

OK, but how does this support you’re position that we truly “ARE in-truth-ONE?”

God Bless you,
Partick

 

[PJM]

Why can’t we look at all Christians as the brothers and sisters in Christ.

The body of Christ is like a tree. It has many branches, supported by its roots, belonging to the head (Christ).

Why not see the Catholic Church as a root that branches out to all these different denominations (each with their attributes–of strength and weakness.

Those that bear fruit, the Father prunes, so that they bear more fruit. And if a Church does not bear fruit then it can’t be Christian; for all are of the same vine, with Christ is the life of the vine. A Church either abides within him or doesn’t. Let the works of a Church speak for themselves.

Remember, the disciples came up to Jesus one day, and asked the Lord for a certain man that was preaching Jesus and curing the sick and do the works of the Lord; however, this certain man was not following Jesus with the disciples. And the Lord said to them do not prevent this man from his works; for whoever is for us cannot be against us.

The same is true with other denominations. Let the works speak for themselves; and you just may find that another denomination is headed by Christ.

Besides, before the Catholic Church came to be (there were in fact a multitude of denominations). Remember, the Lord was celebrated in peoples homes before they were celebrated within a temple. It’s just that as Christianity spread, a temple became necessary, in order to gather the faithful under one worship.

Even if in the worship of homes was a sort of proto-church, leading to the Roman Church, you must understand that before the Catholic Church came to be, the pieces had to be gathered and set into place like a jigsaw puzzle, saying that this is the Church because of so-and-so tradition.

In other words, the Catholic Church wasn’t built in a day. It all had to come together from the ways of the “proto-church”. Being gathered from it’s beginnings within people’s homes.

My fear friend, I just replied in detail to this POST, but you may ?] wisch to also read POST 196,0197, 198, & 199

GBY

Patrick

 

[PJM]

God bless PJM,

According to the teachings of the RCC, Christ founded the Body of Christ/RCC.

At the foundation of the Body of Christ/RCC, the Body of Christ and the RCC was the same.

But today, after 2,000 or even about a 1,000 years, the RCC is only a part of the Body of Christ the One True Church.

According to CCC 818, 819, 1271.
The One True Church is the RCC + The members of every Christian denomination.

Theologically speaking; all believers/elect makes up the Body of Christ which is The One True Church.

**Many Catholics know the identity of the One True Church and who are the members of it.

FOR EXAMPLE

Rcwitness, Post # 9**

Quote: All believers are part of the one true Church of God. End quote.

Eamonnroma, Post # 22

Quote: I am glad that you put RCC in your question, not just ‘catholic church’.

I believe that Christ founded the Catholic Church, and that the Roman CC is part of that

catholic church, as are the various orthodox churches. They are all equal. End quote. Emphasis added.

PPeterson, Post # 27

Addressed to Patrick.
Quote: You’re working backwards to reconcile “RCC is the one true Church founded by Christ.” End quote. Emphasis added.

To believe the RCC is the One True Church is lack a of knowledge of the identity of the Body of Christ.

THEOLOGICAL FACT

All believers/elect are part of the One True Church of God, the Body of Christ. – Their salvation is Eternally Assured.

If a Catholic rejects the above teachings of the RCC, reject a I]DE FIDE Dogma

of the RCC.

I believe Patrick you should rethink your position that the RCC is the One True Church

and start to believe, **the RCC is a part of the One True Church, because the Body of

Christ made up from all God’s children/elect.**

Catholic (Universal) Church [Not the RCC for a very long time.] = Body of Christ.

This is above the teachings of CCC 818, 819, 1271 and the teachings of the RCC DE FIDE Dogma The predestination of the elect.

Peter26, Post # 8

Quote: The one true church is the universal church of all believers.

**The alternative to this view is a sort of theological elitism whereby we all say our church is

the “true” church and all others are not churches at all. Which is a divisive and unreasonable attitude.**

**All Christians **are part of the one true church of God. End quote. Emphasis added.

My dear friend in Christ,

I have just spent hours in reply to the issues you raise here.

Please READ Post 196, 197, 198, 199, 205, & 206

If after doing so you still have questions or concerns, then I will gladly respond personally them. I’m 72 & get tired easy

God Bless you and THANKS

Partick

Continue

 

[PJM]

Continuation

Continuation

Collectively as the Body of Christ we may know all teachings of Christ and we can teach it

but if would be a condition to know all Christ’s teachings individually to enter to heaven, we all would end up in hell.

Dear friend,

I MUST disagree with your position here, NOT understanding what YOU mean by “ALL” WHY?

[1] Because GOD founded His RCC precisely to make salvation a real possibility for every soul

Mt 10:1-8
Mt 16:15-19
Jn 17:17-20
Mt 28:18-20

Gen 1:26-27 TEACHES that we are created in the image of GOD Himself, who John 4:23-24 tells is “SPIRIT”

Humanity accomplishes this angst task by being gifted a mind, intellect, & FREEWILL which are prenatally attached to our Souls.

The Catholic Catechism EXPLAINS predestination in the following manner:

[2] CCC 600 “To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness”

[3] God meets every Soul where “that soul is at” in the present time and then OFFERS sufficient Grace for that Soul to OPT to continue on the path of personal salvation. This grace CAN be, and often is declined.

[4] Final Judgment [both the immediate and the General] will be NOT on what we choose to believe or practice; RATHER it will be as it MUST BE, based on what GOD has made POSSIBLE for each of us to know, accept, live & practice.

[5] A correct understanding is that “predestination” ONLY means foreknowledge of each persons loife-choices. God could not be GOD {“All good things perfected”] if He have man the exclusive ability to Know, Love, Serve, OBEY Him, and then faield to allow man to exercise thise very gifts of mind, intellect & FREEWILL gifted for that precise reason;
Isaiah 43: 7 21 “ Everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made." & the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.

[6] So if by “All” you are being literal; then I agree; if however you’re suggesting ??] that salvation is not possible for and to ALL, I humbly disagree.

EXAMPLES FROM THE SET OF “FAITH-BELIEFS” OF THE TEACHINGS OF THE RCC (GOD’S TRUTH)

**Some very good and clear teachings of the RCC what we all should know and to teach everyone, in particular Protestants.

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE? by James Akin**

Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly

encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed

faith, one is justified. Period. End quote. Emphasis mine.

**Sola fide formata = (formed) FAITH ALONE
THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FORMED FAITH:

a. BELIEF (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.)

b. HOPE (Unconditional TRUST in God.)

c. CHARITY (Unconditional LOVE for God.)**

Every God’s child/elect at baptism, is a recipient of the above free gift of God’s formed faith.

**God’s children/elect AT BAPTISM IRREVOCABLY saved by God’s free gift of formed

faith alone and God’s free gift of Final Perseverance.**

HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier

Quote: “There is **ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED? **

We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.”

End quote.

**JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATIO by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church **

3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts

as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.

4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in

Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is **

NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.**

4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For

without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a

human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying

grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s

unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.

4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love -

FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS. End quite. Emphasis mine.

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE ***Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

LatinRight

Perhaps its because I’m getting tired, but I can’t follow this in light of the OP’s [MY] topic? SORRY

GBY

Patrick

 

[steve_b]

The above forces the Holy Spirit to proceed not from the persons but from the essence of God, and this is where it falls into heresy.

Not so fast

My response started

• here #[
  **148 ** (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14378777&postcount=148)
• **then **#[162 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14380730&postcount=162)

excerpt from link 162

*“some saying the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, others saying the procession is from the Father through the Son. All were aiming at the same meaning in different words. The Greeks asserted that when they claim that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, they do not intend to exclude the Son; but because it seemed to them that the Latins assert that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from two principles and two spirations, they refrained from saying that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son…”

Let me add the following to conclude the teaching
*"we define, with the approval of this holy universal council of Florence, that the following truth of faith shall be believed and accepted by all Christians and thus shall all profess it: that the holy Spirit is eternally from the Father and the Son, and has his essence and his subsistent being from the Father together with the Son, and proceeds from both eternally as from one principle and a single spiration. "
*

The full context is in this link Sessions 5-8 (1439) , refer to **session 6

Bp Ware in #148 says the Orthodox misunderstand the Catholic teaching.
**

 

[prodromos]

Bp Ware in #148 says the Orthodox misunderstand the Catholic teaching.

Other Bishops and Saints of the Church say otherwise. Bishop Kallistos’ views on the matter fall outside the consensus of the Church.

 

[steve_b]

Other Bishops and Saints of the Church say otherwise. Bishop Kallistos’ views on the matter fall outside the consensus of the Church.

Well, technically, no ONE speaks for all the Orthodox.

OTOH

(emphasis mine)

For “all Christians” the following teaching (due to the specific wording) is an infallible teaching from the council of Florence

*"**we define, with the approval of this holy universal council of Florence, that the following truth of faith shall be believed and accepted by all Christians and thus shall all profess it: **that the holy Spirit is eternally from the Father and the Son, and has his essence and his subsistent being from the Father together with the Son, and proceeds from both eternally as from one principle and a single spiration."
*

 

[TOmNossor]

Hello Stephen,
I will again offer some responses to your post. It seems to me that this thread was an invitation to explain what within Catholicism was WRONG, but contrary to what you claim I did that is not my main thrust in this thread. I am not a Catholic because I believe the CoJCoLDS is God’s church.
That being said, I often see claims made against my church that are more damning to the Catholics who make the claims. I try to explain why the claims are not as problematic for me as is claimed AND why the problem is as bad or worse for the Catholic.

In Post #48 You claimed to believe the Catholic Church is not the one true Church, because the Mormon Church, the restored church, is the one true Church.
In Post #88, you claimed a sign of the restored Church is that it can still write scripture. And in post #111, you claim public revelation as a sign of the restored church. You repeated these claims in post #114 and #191.

I agree this is my claim! It has been for quite some time.

In post #164, you claim that the successors to Peter had no authority, but Joseph Smith claimed it was given to him.

In this thread about Catholicism, I was told that it does not make sense that God waited 1800 years to teach truth. I responded that is not an accurate description of my beliefs AND it is a peculiar criticism from a Catholic who believes that God waited more than 1800 years to teach that He was Triune.
IgnatianPhilo responded to this conversation I was having with PJM and claimed that I believed that there were “no true ministers of the word.” In response to this, I did mention that I do not believe Clement of Rome was a valid successor of Peter, but I once again concluded my post by saying that “LDS look to the apostasy because we believe God the Father and God the Son appeared to Joseph Smith.”

In my point #176, I point out the prophecies of Joseph Smith, and the scriptures of Joseph Smith are scientifically proven false. The Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham are not what Joseph Smith claimed them to be. Therefore your claim of continuing scripture is false.

I read your post #176. I have dealt with the points you make many times on this board and on others, to you and to others. I can assure you that “the scriptures of Joseph Smith are NOT SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN false.” I will offer links to responses to the things you pointed to in #176.
The Son of God in the BOM:
en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Textual_changes/%22the_Son_of%22

Peterson on ALL the American Indians and the Book of Abraham:
pbs.org/mormons/interviews/peterson.html

Because everything Joseph Smith claimed which could be verified by science and history has been proven false, it stands to reason those things which can not be verified by science are also false. He NEVER had a vision from an angel, Peter, John, James, Moses or anyone else.

Again, I do not agree and you know that I do not agree. A post to you with some highlights.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11865799&postcount=592

I that post I briefly mentioned Nahom, a specific place in the Old World, fitting into a narrative of a journey at the right place with multi-point support around it. More on it here (including critics of the idea whose articles I have also read):
mormoninterpreter.com/tag/nahom/
I mention:
“Cement used at Teotihuacan fits the time, place, deforestation, and presence of lots of water.”
This exists in a huge list made by Brant Gardner that I think is unlikely to result Joseph Smith INVENTING the BOM. Here is the first third of the list:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=382203&postcount=100

I also mention the scholarship of non-Mormon Margaret Barker and how it places the BOM in the religious thought of 600BC rather than in the religious thought of 1830AD. Here is more on this: bycommonconsent.com/2008/09/26/kevin-christensen-on-margaret-barker/

Now, do I know that others disagree with my thoughts in these areas? Certainly.
But, Stephen, when I responded briefly too you, I expected you to recognize that I have offered substantive response to the issue you offer and I do not agree with your conclusions. I didn’t want you to triumphantly declare that few words from me means that you have proven stuff that objective observers would NEVER claim was proven.

I should anticipate your response a little here (as we have been through this). You use the phrase “Joseph Smith claimed”
The above three things I link to do not conform with all of Joseph Smith personal understanding of what God did through Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith didn’t finish elementary school and was no scientist. He received revelation from God and speculated regularly upon what it meant and what it meant for historical and scientific truths. He like I believed that what he received came from God and should (and does) align with reality. He like I then used his fallible human mind to try to understand where, what, when, … He has (like I have) errors in his (our) thoughts. To me this is less problematic than a Doctors of the Church declaring certain principles “De fide” that virtually no scientist (with at least one exception as I know a ultratrad who does) would embrace today. I also think SOME of Joseph’s speculation on the BOM would be absent had he authored the BOM. In addition to this, if the points of connection between the BOM and history/archeology are BEYOND chance (and I think they are long beyond), then Joseph’s speculation right or wrong does nothing to explain this.

cont…

 

[TOmNossor]

They are negatives because they are objectively true. Any position you hold doesn’t suddenly make them false.

No, they are difficulties because the truth contained in a thorough examination of these issues does not make all of them just disappear and I admit that. Critics on occasion have admitted that “Nahom” is a positive while claiming that it is not enough of a positive to overcome all the negatives.
I have never seen you say there are difficulties with Catholic truth claims. But there are. That is why “Catholic Answers” exists.
Newman said, “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt.” He didn’t say this because he saw no problems with Catholic truth claims!

But this is not Mormon scripture. Mormon scripture says the Book of Mormon is a history of ALL the Indians of the Americas.

Mormon “scripture” does not say this.

It is because there is no positive evidence which a reasonable person could use to arrive at your conclusion. You just believe.

There are VOLUMES of reasonable people who arrive at the same conclusions I do.
Here is a list of hundreds of folks most of whom have PhDs many of whom have PhDs in “relevant areas” who believe.
mormonscholarstestify.org/
Here is an article by two non-LDS. The title is:
Mormon Apologetic Scholarship and Evangelical Neglect:
Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It?
cometozarahemla.org/others/mosser-owen.html

Mosser and Owen decry the dismissive attitude you offer here and call non-LDS to be better. You can wave your hands and tell me “I just believe” or “TOm is not reasonable,” but I will not agree.

I see that over 90 percent of your posting is your perceived problems with the Catholic Church while just ignoring the problems of the Mormon Church. So not only do you “pick up the problems of Catholicism,” you usually invent them. In this case, ignoring the problems with the Mormon Church you earlier had claimed as signs of a restored church.

I do not IGNORE the difficulties of the CoJCoLDS and I do not invent the difficulties of Catholicism. I have been exploring difficulties for LDS truth claims for years. Also, I seldom agree with you when you declare it is irrational for me to believe that Catholic should believe “God is impassible” or any number of other things that I truly think are “difficulties” for Catholics. These are not my inventions and it is you who dismiss them without evidence.

Therefore, using your criteria, the Mormon Church is not the true church of Jesus Christ based on an objective evaluation of the facts.

I disagree.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Hello Patrick,

The APOSTLES CREED was authored around the same time the Bible is thought to have been fully written; but not yet CODIFIED

The apostles creed does not say, “co-equal.” It is my point that the Bible and the church didn’t say co-equal until the 4th century. My rejection of “co-equal” does not make me at odds with the Bible or the early ECFs.

That said; it seems to ME [personally] that your seeking a justification in, by and through LOGIC alone, and that itself is a major roadblock to Spiritual Truths.

Two things.
The first, is that I am guilty of this. I pursue God with my head like I pursue all knowledge. I pray to God for help and He helps, but I am an engineer in all my endeavors.
Second, I believe that my interactions with God, “heart knowledge” are not available to you. Only your interactions with God are available to you. So on message boards, I offer logic and reasons based on “head knowledge.” I do not deny that I have interacted with God and would not deny that you have. I use this “heart knowledge” to suggest that God exists, but I do not use this “heart knowledge” to tell others their concept of God is wrong and mine is right (though I would argue against deism). For whatever reason, God has entered the lives of millions of people and these people do not emerge from their divine encounters in perfect agreement about all theological questions. Many (most) of them leave behind atheism forever, and this I find to be part of God’s plan. I refuse to say, “my spiritual experiences are better than yours.” I merely say, “I have had them, and they are mine. I know it and God knows it.”

This is also why I avoid the argument you gave me previously, that I am “not granted the grace to rightly understand.” It can help with “boundary maintenance,” (we are right and those guys should be ignored because they are lacking), but it does not invite others to “come and see” God.

I have heard folks who claim that they have spiritual experiences that indicate they should be part of one church, but their head tells them they should not. I do not think I have ever been in this situation. My “dark night of the soul” was mercifully short and had to do with CERTAINTY not head and heart conflict.
Charity, TOm

 

[RebeccaJ]

My “dark night of the soul” was mercifully short and had to do with CERTAINTY not head and heart conflict.
Charity, TOm

Re: this, which I assume is an allusion to “Mother Teresas Long Dark Night”. Non-Catholic media portrayed this as Mother Teresa having doubts about Catholicism, as you seem,to be using it, though more generally about any religious belief.

She had a long period of “visions and locations”, and then they stopped. It was in this that she felt the doors of heaven had been bolted against her. The more she longed for the visions to resume the more despondent she felt. She called this period the long dark night of her soul. It wasn’t about doubt it was about feeling rejected by God or worse that God was hiding from her.

The lesson Catholics see in this is that even if, and when, we feel abandoned by God, we are not. We tie Mother Teresa’s suffering to the Cross, where there too, Jesus in His humanity felt abandoned by the Father. As Pope Benedict XVI wrote, paraphrasing, Jesus suffered as humanity suffers, in every way, including feelinging in great trials, to have been abandoned by the Father.

The reality of course being, that we are not abandoned. Mormonism OTO, seeks to emerge history, and by attachment people in periods of history, in abandonment. Honestly, I see it as Mormons must believe by faith that God abandons us, in our trials. Like Protestants it must be believed that Jesus has left us, in our sin, and has gone somewhere else.

Catholics must believe by faith that God does not abandon us in our sin. The evidence we have for this is the Cross itself, therefor our faith is rooted in reason. More to the point in the Logos. Christ died for us while we were still sinners. It is one of the amazing doctrines, that I love. The continuity of God’s fidelity to a chosen people, and the ever widening of the group of,chosen, until all of humanity is under His wing.

Mormon teaching is sad and bleak, about a God who is human and acts capricious like a human, with no fidelity towards those who this god of Mormonism, supposedly loves. This type of god would indeed, be devasting and hopeless to someone experiencing a dark night.

You have doubts about the continuity of God’s Church and doubt about Jesus’ fidelity to His Bride. For you the whole world was in a dark night, and had to search for Jesus, somewhere else. Mother Teresa never went looking for where Jesus, Her Love, had gone. She said in the 70’s that her feelings of abandonment did not matter because in spite of her despondency she knew that Her Love, was not in hiding, nor had abandoned her.

The Mormon message is the opposite. That one’s feelings are the determining factor of God’s fidelity. Mother Teresa recognized the narcicsm in this view and rejected it.

 

[TOmNossor]

Re: this, which I assume is an allusion to “Mother Teresas Long Dark Night”. Non-Catholic media portrayed this as Mother Teresa having doubts about Catholicism, as you seem,to be using it, though more generally about any religious belief.

She had a long period of “visions and locations”, and then they stopped. It was in this that she felt the doors of heaven had been bolted against her. The more she longed for the visions to resume the more despondent she felt. She called this period the long dark night of her soul. It wasn’t about doubt it was about feeling rejected by God or worse that God was hiding from her.

The lesson Catholics see in this is that even if, and when, we feel abandoned by God, we are not. We tie Mother Teresa’s suffering to the Cross, where there too, Jesus in His humanity felt abandoned by the Father. As Pope Benedict XVI wrote, paraphrasing, Jesus suffered as humanity suffers, in every way, including feelinging in great trials, to have been abandoned by the Father.

Rebecca, I have been referring to my “dark night of the soul” since before St. Teresa’s dairies were posthumously released against her request.
You should read more Catholicism and less anti-Mormonism. St. Teresa and I both drew upon St. John of the Cross.
The rest of your post directly conflicts with what I have been saying in this thread concerning the CoJCoLDS. You do not understand the message of the restoration.
I submit that my respect for St. John of the Cross evidences that I do not think like you claim LDS do.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Oh, and I was not suggesting she had doubts.
I was referring more generally to a period we pass through in our journey toward God. Personally I may have more to go, but few spend as long in the Dark Night as Mother Teresa.
I am not convinced that she didn’t doubt, but I find her more inspirational because of it.
Charity. TOm

 

[Michael68]

Oh, and I was not suggesting she had doubts.
I was referring more generally to a period we pass through in our journey toward God. Personally I may have more to go, but few spend as long in the Dark Night as Mother Teresa.
I am not convinced that she didn’t doubt, but I find her more inspirational because of it.
Charity. TOm

I can very much agrree here! The Dark Night, or Holy Darkness as I call it, is very real. I have experienced it myself.

 

[PJM]

God bless PJM,

According to the teachings of the RCC, Christ founded the Body of Christ/RCC.

At the foundation of the Body of Christ/RCC, the Body of Christ and the RCC was the same.

But today, after 2,000 or even about a 1,000 years, the RCC is only a part of the Body of Christ the One True Church.

According to CCC 818, 819, 1271.
The One True Church is the RCC + The members of every Christian denomination.

Theologically speaking; all believers/elect makes up the Body of Christ which is The One True Church

**CCC 818 **"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.

**CCC 819 **“Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity.

CCC 1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: “For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ;** they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.**” “Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.”

THANK YOU No surprise here

NOW please relate this to numbers 1261, 846, 847, & 848

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

**Many Catholics know the identity of the One True Church and who are the members of it.

FOR EXAMPLE

Rcwitness, Post # 9**

Quote: All believers are part of the one true Church of God. End quote.

Eamonnroma, Post # 22

Quote: I am glad that you put RCC in your question, not just ‘catholic church’.

I believe that Christ founded the Catholic Church, and that the Roman CC is part of that

catholic church, as are the various orthodox churches. They are all equal. End quote. Emphasis added.

PPeterson, Post # 27

Addressed to Patrick.
Quote: You’re working backwards to reconcile “RCC is the one true Church founded by Christ.” End quote. Emphasis added.

To believe the RCC is the One True Church is lack a of knowledge of the identity of the Body of Christ.

THEOLOGICAL FACT

All believers/elect are part of the One True Church of God, the Body of Christ. – Their salvation is Eternally Assured.

If a Catholic rejects the above teachings of the RCC, reject a I]DE FIDE Dogma

of the RCC.

I believe Patrick you should rethink your position that the RCC is the One True Church

and start to believe, **the RCC is a part of the One True Church, because the Body of

Christ made up from all God’s children/elect.**

THANKS,

If you’d care to READ my post #'s 194, 197, 198, 199 & 205 & 206 you; GOD WILLING will see WHY I cannot do that.

God Bless you, I truly appreciate you participation

Patrick

Catholic (Universal) Church [Not the RCC for a very long time.] = Body of Christ.

This is above the teachings of CCC 818, 819, 1271 and the teachings of the RCC DE FIDE Dogma The predestination of the elect.

Peter26, Post # 8

Quote: The one true church is the universal church of all believers.

**The alternative to this view is a sort of theological elitism whereby we all say our church is

the “true” church and all others are not churches at all. Which is a divisive and unreasonable attitude.**

**All Christians **are part of the one true church of God. End quote. Emphasis added.

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