WHY do you [if you do?] think the RCC is not the One true Church founded by Christ?

[LatinRight]

Most would probably disagree with us that Christianity is not a religion of the book, it’s a religion of the man Jesus Christ.

I know somebody that sleeps with his bible…under his pillow or even holds it at times while sleeping. I love the Word too, but at the end of the day it’s just paper and ink. What’s important is the internalizing of that Word.

God bless Lanten Ashes,

As a former Evangelical I know.

For Protestants the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book” but for them

Christianity is a religion of THE INCARNATE AND LIVING “WORD” OF GOD.

When Protestants see the Bible, they see THE INCARNATE AND LIVING “WORD” OF

GOD, they see THE BREAD OF LIFE, they see the Lord Jesus Christ who did for them.

That is the reason Protestants loves the Bible.

**[CCC 108]; **Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book **Christianity is

a religion of the “Word” of God,** “not a written and mute word, but incarnate and living.”

If the Scriptures are not remain a dead letter, **Christ, the eternal Word of the living God,

must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.” **End quote.

By the way I use to know someone too who slept with the Bible.

In her mind, she slept with the Incarnate and Living Word of God for the reason to help her to internalize the Word of God.

I have to admit, I like your posts Lanten Ashes I always read them.

God bless,

LatinRight

 

[Son_of_Niall]

God bless Lanten Ashes,

As a former Evangelical I know.

For Protestants the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book” but for them

Christianity is a religion of THE INCARNATE AND LIVING “WORD” OF GOD.

When Protestants see the Bible, they see THE INCARNATE AND LIVING “WORD” OF

GOD, they see THE BREAD OF LIFE, they see the Lord Jesus Christ who did for them.

That is the reason Protestants loves the Bible.

**[CCC 108]; **Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book **Christianity is

a religion of the “Word” of God,** “not a written and mute word, but incarnate and living.”

If the Scriptures are not remain a dead letter, **Christ, the eternal Word of the living God,

must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.” **End quote.

By the way I use to know someone too who slept with the Bible.

In her mind, she slept with the Incarnate and Living Word of God for the reason to help her to internalize the Word of God.

I have to admit, I like your posts Lanten Ashes I always read them.

God bless,

LatinRight

Worshipping the Bible is not what the Catholic Church does.

 

[Wannano]

I believe the way some protestants worship the bible it borders on idolatry

Actually I believe I see your point. It s not impossible. However, I also think it to be very unusual. Thankfully you used the word “some.” Why it was necessary to bring the point forward I can only speculate. Many non-Catholics state that Catholics “worship Mary, the host, statues or even the Church itself” but it is non-productive conversation. It can only com -prise a valid point if the word “some” is associated with it, which then is a qualifier that confirms that “most” do not.

 

[Wannano]

Worshipping the Bible is not what the Catholic Church does.

I believe you and I have yet to observe any church that does.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

I believe you and I have yet to observe any church that does.

I’ve seen KJV-only fundamentalists who come very close to it. But they hardly count as mainstream Protestants.

 

[LatinRight]

Worshipping the Bible is not what the Catholic Church does.

God bless Son of Niall,

I don’t believe any Church worshipping the Bible.

I agree, the Catholic Church certainly don’t.

God bless,

LatinRight

 

[Lenten_ashes]

God bless Lanten Ashes,

As a former Evangelical I know.

For Protestants the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book” but for them

Christianity is a religion of THE INCARNATE AND LIVING “WORD” OF GOD.

When Protestants see the Bible, they see THE INCARNATE AND LIVING “WORD” OF

GOD, they see THE BREAD OF LIFE, they see the Lord Jesus Christ who did for them.

That is the reason Protestants loves the Bible.

**[CCC 108]; **Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book **Christianity is

a religion of the “Word” of God,** “not a written and mute word, but incarnate and living.”

If the Scriptures are not remain a dead letter, **Christ, the eternal Word of the living God,

must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.” **End quote.

By the way I use to know someone too who slept with the Bible.

In her mind, she slept with the Incarnate and Living Word of God for the reason to help her to internalize the Word of God.

I have to admit, I like your posts Lanten Ashes I always read them.

God bless,

LatinRight

That’s the exact same explanation he gave me about sleeping with the bible.

And thank you for the compliment. God bless you.

 

[PJM]

God bless Patrick,

PART 1 OF 2 POST

LatinRight POST #232

God bless Patrick,

In general I agree with your post but need to clear up certain theological facts.

For example: Is the RCC The One True Church?

I’m sorry for in my post # 222 I didn’t do a fine detailed demonstration so you couldn’t understand what I meant.

In this post I correct my mistake and I do a detailed demonstration of salvation in the RCC, Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox Churches.

CONDITIONS OF SALVATION

According to CCC 818, 819, 1271, some of those who are not members of the RCC still

able to fulfill all conditions need to be saved, being an elect of God and predestined to heaven.

In the following teachings, the RCC goes further than in CCC 818, 819, 1271:

Ignorance—Invincible and Vincible by James Akin

Quote: The teaching of the Church, which acknowledges that there are “righteous people in all religions” (CCC 2569). End quote.

Of course, those righteous people will be saved, regardless of their religion.

Among other things the task of God is to save the people, our great commission by our
co-operation with the grace of God is to convert everyone into Christianity.

I agree completely with CCC 2569“…

Noah’s offering is pleasing to God, who blesses him and through him all creation, because his heart was upright and undivided; Noah, like Enoch before him, “walks with God.”

“In his indefectible covenant with every living creature, God has always called people to prayer. But it is above all beginning with our father Abraham that prayer is revealed in the Old Testament”

“Righteous in this passage seems to align with 1 Tim 2:4

“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
There is no indication for an “ALL”, even on a modified by church /faith beliefs here. It is highly conditional

Where I seem to disagree is that God will, because GOD must Judge each of on what He has made POSSIBLE for us to know, accept and live; NOT what we freely choose to believe & practice

**Heb.6: 10 **“For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

**Rev.2: 23 **“and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

THE TRUE AND FAILED CRISTIANS IN THE FOLLOWING DEMONSTRATION

TRUE (Roman Catholic, Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox) Christian means, he/she have been fulfilled every conditions of salvation.

As the result, he/she is an elect of God, predestined to heaven and end up in heaven

Here my friend we must disagree. What you suggest is by ONLY being identified with one of these churches one then “IS SAVED”

1 That is NOT the teaching of the RCC

CCC 1269, 846-848

Like the Bible the Catechism must be taken as a whole. No one teaching can or does override another.

2 “Predestination” in its common term understanding does NOT mean that one by virtue of their birth, or church ‘faith relationship ALONE [Isaiah 43 7 & 21] are truly predestined. Life is the GOD TEST, because God choose to GIFT humanity alone in emulation of Himself, with a mind, intellect and FREEWILL. None of which would be necessary if God TRULY selected certain souls to be saved from their birth.

**Hence: predestination would make God IMPERFECT: an impossibility & deny humanity their RIGHT to choose for themselves where they will spend eternity. **

FAILED (Catholic, Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox) Christian means, he/she have been failed to fulfill every conditions of salvation.

As the results, he/she is a reprobate and end up in hell

So we agree that salvation is conditional? GOOD

And also of note ALL faiths are NOT equal.

There can only be one truth per defined issue, hence the RCC has salvation possible advantages in and through our 7 Sacraments

In my demonstration the following numbers are not real numbers.

The numbers are for demonstration purpose only and for easy understanding of the composite of the Catholic (Universal) Church/Body of Christ

**End of Pt 1 of 2
**

 

[PJM]

Part 2 of 2 REPLY

THE PART OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THE BODY OF CRIST

According to the Roman Catholic administration 1,000,000 members made up the Roman Catholic Church.

In reality 10 members are FAILED Catholics. – Reprobates. All end up in hell.

In reality 999,990 members are TRUE Catholics. – God’s elect. All end up in heaven.

This is a meaningless debate as WE cannot know except for what the Bible and Jesus Himself shares.

Mt 7: 13-15
Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!

As a % your LOST catholic s is less than 000.1%
Clearly that contradicts the Bible and even logic

THE PART OF THE PROTESTANT CHURCH IN THE BODY OF CHRIT

SAME for the the Protestant administration

Same for the ANGLICAN CHURCH IN THE BODY OF CHRIST

SAME for the the Orthodox Churches

This is illogical and unsupportable, and NOT what the RCC teaches

SUMMARY

The above 3,999,960 members of the elect MADE UP The One True Catholic (Universal) Church. – All end up in heaven.

**My friend, your ASSUMPTION is illogical and unprovable. Not only that it denies human nature [1 **

Jn 1:8-9
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar.

**Jn 20:19-23 **
Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained

Friend it is MY [personal] understanding that God approved sin forgiveness requires either Sacramental Confession Jn. 20:23. ****OR a PERFECT act of contrition. I am unaware the Protestants are even taught; are aware of these GODLY conditions; so outside of Sacramental Confession ONLY GOD can make a Just & Fair Judgment. The likelihood though of the SAVED being anywhere near your estimations is logically, morally & biblically very far LESS than is your generous estimates.

Now do you see Patrick that the Catholic (Universal) Church is The One True Catholic Church.

The True Roman Catholic Church is a Part of The One True Catholic (Universal) Church. There is no other way.

Of COURSE there is. Its called the TRUTH, which can literally be nothing other than SINGULAR per defined issue.

There is BUT one TRUE God [1st commandment & Exo 6:7]

**One TRUE set of Faith beliefs **[Mt 10: 1-2 & 5; Mt 16:18-29, Jn 17:17-20 & Mt 28: 19-20 PAY close attention to the singular tense words the HS Inspired [2 Tim 3:16-17] CATHOLIC authors choose to use

And Only One TRUE Church: NO “church” can be separated from the set of faith-beliefs of THAT church, hence after 2,000 years their remains only One Catholic Church & faith [23 branches]; while our Protestant Brethren have in 500 years thousands, BECAUSE of differing faith beliefs. [Same bible references as above]

NOT one time in the entire bible can it be proven that GOD ever

Desired, wanted, tolerated, accepted, or even overlooked ANY other faith beliefs OTHER than His Own. Eph 4:1-7

There HAD to has to be a REASON, Morally & Theologically, that God choose Just One True Church & it’s One TRUE set of Faith beliefs.

It would be serious lack of knowledge to say; the Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox Churches are not true Churches?QUOTE]

I have never made that precise claim. What I share is that Jesus Christ; GOD from time’s beginning desired, taught, guides and protects just ONE True [OT “peoples” Exo 6:7] & NT Church & the Faith beliefs of that same RCC Church in its FULLNESS.
Christian Baptism makes Us Brethren, BUT NOT equal.

Mt.10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Mt 24: 13-14 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come.

when the True elect of God makes up the True

Churches. – This True Churches with the True RCC makes up The One True Catholic (Universal) Church

That dear friend is you’e BUT NOT the desire of God, nor the teachings of the RCC

Do you see Patrick the above important Theological Facts?

Do you see Patrick the reason the RCC can be only The True Roman Catholic Church but NOT The One True Roman Catholic Church?

Is God’s elect are the Churches, and if the members of the RCC would claim, we are The One True Church, that would make every other elect of God heretics and their Churches heretical Churches.

Do you see the above theological facts Patrick?

LatinRight

NO my friend, I do not.

May God Bless and guuide you my friend!
Patrick**

 

[PJM]

then why did God leave us the CC instead of the bible. How does the bible give you the bread and body of Christ? How does the bible give you forgiveness for your sins? How does the bible baptise you in the name of God. Etc. If we NEED the bible how did all those people in the OT survive.

While I agree the bible is the greatest book ever written, I disagree that we need it. What we need is the Church the living Church here on earth.

GREAT reply:thumbsup:

GBY

Patrick

 

[PJM]

God’s blessings,

I believe I need to answer some questions.

Do we Catholics need the Bible and how can we know the interpretation of the Bible?

I need the help of the **teachings of the RCC **to answer the above questions.

CATHOLIC SENSIBILITY, DEI VERBUM 21

GBY

Patrick

 

[MichaelP3]

GREAT reply:thumbsup:

GBY

Patrick

No PJM! You do not need to defend that statement from Rinnie just because he/she identifies as Catholic. That is beyond even you. As much as I respect you!

Does the Catholic Church need the Bible? By defending that post you are literally nullifying half your Catechism sources. You are nullifying the three legs of the “Gospel”, as you should know, Sacred scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium? You are nullifying half the Mass, the readings and make it all pointless. 90% of your posts that I ever read would be pointless without the Bible! We can have some fancy linguistics here but you know what I mean. And I really ask you not to come with a special explanation of what he/she meant. Take it at what it meant, the Bible is not needed. This is very much a contradiction to Catholicism. I sincerely hope you see this as I do respect you.

Please, let us keep a common ground here.

Regards

 

[rinnie]

No PJM! You do not need to defend that statement from Rinnie just because he/she identifies as Catholic. That is beyond even you. As much as I respect you!

Does the Catholic Church need the Bible? By defending that post you are literally nullifying half your Catechism sources. You are nullifying the three legs of the “Gospel”, as you should know, Sacred scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium? You are nullifying half the Mass, the readings and make it all pointless. 90% of your posts that I ever read would be pointless without the Bible! We can have some fancy linguistics here but you know what I mean. And I really ask you not to come with a special explanation of what he/she meant. Take it at what it meant, the Bible is not needed. This is very much a contradiction to Catholicism. I sincerely hope you see this as I do respect you.

Please, let us keep a common ground here.
Regards

Let me tell you what I know and what I was taught. First of all we do not need the bible because there is not ONE thing that is revealed to us in the bible that is NOT revealed to us in the RCC, Second of all could you please show me where Sacred Tradition is in the Bible. Or the teachings of the Magisterium? Thanks

 

[MichaelP3]

Let me tell you what I know and what I was taught. First of all we do not need the bible because there is not ONE thing that is revealed to us in the bible that is NOT revealed to us in the RCC, Second of all could you please show me where Sacred Tradition is in the Bible. Or the teachings of the Magisterium? Thanks

Good day Rinnie

There is a reason I never responded to you.

I would advise you to read your own Catechism (as I have, very thoroughly) and maybe respond to the same questions I asked PJM. I do not know anything about you (meaning no previous posts to go upon). You could be a good person to converse with, but the nature of your posts claim otherwise.

Regards

 

[rinnie]

Good day Rinnie

There is a reason I never responded to you.

I would advise you to read your own Catechism (as I have, very thoroughly) and maybe respond to the same questions I asked PJM. I do not know anything about you (meaning no previous posts to go upon). You could be a good person to converse with, but the nature of your posts claim otherwise.

Regards

Maybe if you could address something that I said that is in direct teaching with our CCC that is not true we could get somewhere.

But let me bexplain something to you. If a Catholic is going to read the bible and not within the context of the teaching of the RCC and use their own mind to try to understand it, it is better that they do not read the bible at all. The bible is not our means of Salvation.

If it was Jesus would have left us the bible. Jesus left the word of God to the Apostles and teachers to TEACH his word, not read it.

With that said there is no better way in life to get closer to God then to sit down and read the bible, IF you truly understand it within context of what God is saying.

What I am trying to say to you is this, I can read the bible everyday, and have it tell me what I want it to say. That is why we have a zillion church’s.

Read the bible and read this part. 2 Peter 1:20. The Bible itself tells you we do not have the ability to understand it by what we think it says. Jesus said we all have the power of the Holy Spirit from Baptism. But it also says we have DIFFERENT gifts. A Priest, Pope etc have the gift of the Holy Spirit to define scripture, That is why Jesus left us the Church.

And that is why there was only ONE Church for ever, all teaching the same thing, until Luther started the Reformation and thought he could teach what he though.

There is only ONE TRUTH and ONE Holy Spirit, it is not a Spirit of chaos.

 

[rinnie]

Good day Rinnie

There is a reason I never responded to you.

I would advise you to read your own Catechism (as I have, very thoroughly) and maybe respond to the same questions I asked PJM. I do not know anything about you (meaning no previous posts to go upon). You could be a good person to converse with, but the nature of your posts claim otherwise.

Regards

Here is something that may or may not help you. Name we one Protestant Church that was not started by a human.

Now Jesus said there is only ONE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH and it was started by Christ himself. You will see that the RCC is that Church. It is the Church St Peter taught the teaching of God.

 

[rinnie]

Good day Rinnie

There is a reason I never responded to you.

I would advise you to read your own Catechism (as I have, very thoroughly) and maybe respond to the same questions I asked PJM. I do not know anything about you (meaning no previous posts to go upon). You could be a good person to converse with, but the nature of your posts claim otherwise.

Regards

Could you show me one thing that PJM said that is in direct conflict with what the RCC teaches. Now please don’t do scripture with scripture, until you look up what the RCC teaches that scripture means. Again personal revelation on either part do us know good.

PJM usually is in spot on with what the Church teaches. Now of course as PJM will admit we have all been called on things we said, and of course it was either our on misunderstanding of the Church teaching or our own revelation, and have admitted our wrong. But have learned to try to always stay in context with the Church teachings.

And we always recant if we are in conflict with the Church. That is how and why God left us the Church and not the bible so we are of one mind and one truth.

 

[steve_b]

steve b:

forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Scripturally, The Spirit is externally sent into the world by the Son as well as the Father (John 15:26, Acts 2:33), and HE internally proceeds from both Father and Son in the Trinity. **This is why the Spirit is referred to as the Spirit of the Son (Gal. 4:6) and not just the Spirit of the Father (Matt. 10:20).
**

Expatreprocedit:

In John 15:26 Christ makes clear that the Spirit proceeds eternally originally (that is the sense of the Greek word Christ uses) from the Father, full stop. Those terms are never used of the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Son. The Spirit DOES NOT proceed eternally from both the Father and the Son “equally” (as Lateran IV asserts). Sure, *“through the Son” can be understood in an orthodox way, but once the western church said “equally” that foreclosed any understanding of “through the Son”. “Equally” even violates what Bl. Augustine said, which was the the Father remained the original source of the Spirit. *

T
after further study, that the problem is more in the area of semantics and different emphases than in any basic doctrinal differences"

(Diakonia, quoted from Elias Zoghby’s A Voice from the Byzantine East, 43).

Catch that? After further study, Bp Ware thinks this is a semantical issue not a doctrinal issue.

You grossly misstated what F. Ware said. He said “MORE” in the area of semantics…" Not “this is a semantical issue.”

Re: Bp Ware

I used a quote properly referenced.

These expressions “and the Son” or “through the Son” mean the same thing. ***Orthodox Bishop Kallistos ***Ware, who once adamantly opposed the filioque doctrine, states: “The filioque controversy which has separated us for so many centuries is more than a mere technicality, but it is not insoluble. Qualifying the firm position taken when I wrote [my book] The Orthodox Church twenty years ago, I now believe, after further study, that the problem is more in the area of semantics and different emphases than in any basic doctrinal differences” (Diakonia, quoted from Elias Zoghby’s A Voice from the Byzantine East, 43).

That said, you might have missed the following post, in which I added some added text from Florence

#209

I added from Florence (all emphasis mine)

*"we define, with the approval of this holy universal council of Florence, that the following truth of faith shall be believed and accepted by all Christians and thus shall all profess it: that t**he holy Spirit is eternally from the Father and the Son, and has his essence and his subsistent being from the Father together with the Son, and proceeds from both eternally **as from one principle and a single spiration. "

What is underlined, is language used in defining an infallible doctrine when approved by the Pope.
*
To deny this, is to deny Jesus is God*
*

 

[mackbrislawn]

Hello Patrick,

 Would you mind going into detail by what you mean by one true church and what benefits you hope to gain by being a member of the one true church.  Jesus said many times that we will be judged in the same way we judge others.

Well, if it weren’t for the One True Church we wouldn’t know about Jesus nor about his teaching on judging. That’s why we know there is the one true church; and, since therefore there is one, obviously one would want to be a part of it.

 

[LatinRight]

God bless PJM,

I’m sorry it seems like I still didn’t explain clear enough that the RCC is a True Church but not The One True Church.

As follows in a different and simple way I explain it again.

In the past, the RCC use to teach: The RCC is The One True Church.

But now the RCC officially teach: The RCC is a True Church. – NOT The One True Church.

I explain you PJM step by step the way the RCC teach that she is a True Church but NOT The One True Church.

In order to understand the reason that the RCC is not The One True Church but a True

Church first we must understand the related teachings of the RCC concerning the issue.

Furthermore, we must clearly understand the following theological terms.

ELECT OF GOD

PREDESTINED TO ADOPTION AS SONS

REPROBATE

BOOK OF LIFE

PREDESTINATION OF THE ELECT

CCC 818, 819, 1271, etc.

**ONE BY ONE OF THE ABOVE THEOLOGICAL TERMS

ELECT OF GOD**

Eph.1:4-5, etc.;
He chose us to Himself, according to the purpose of His will, before the foundation of the world.

PREDESTINED TO ADOPTION AS SONS

Eph.1:4-5, etc.;
He chose us to Himself, according to the purpose of His will, predestined to adoption as sons before the foundation of the world.

REPROBATE

For their vehement rejection of God and His grace they all end up in hell.

BOOK OF LIFE

God has completed the Book of Life before the foundation of the world by taking out the names of the reprobates from the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of God and His grace and as the results they all end up in hell.

From the completion, the Book of life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS no ERASURES.

Some people can be confused about the Book of Life, because God has completed the Book of Life in His “chronological order” before the foundation of the world, but in the Bible concerning the Book of Life, for our understanding, written in our chronological order, like the cancellation from the Book of Life done at our present time.

This fact can cause confusion, because someone may wrongly conclude; God’s child/elect can lose salvation, which is a theological impossibility.

I have to admit I made this mistake, I wrongly concluded; the names from the Book of Life taken out at our time when we reject God and His grace and as the results we become reprobates and we end up in hell.

When I studied RCC teachings on this issue, at that time I realized how wrong I was. – The names of the reprobates taken out from the Book of life **NOT in our time but before the foundation of the world.

At that time I realized a God’s child/elect cannot lose salvation.**

Continue