Why do you love Vatican II?

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I am a Trad-Cat. Always have been, always will. However, I was wondering why some of you love the Post-Vatican II days. I was hoping a few of you could give me some insight. I personally can’t get over how bland the New Mass is. Maybe you could share some of your experiences as well.

~Tradcat
 
Why do I love Vatican II?

Because it called for us of the Eastern Catholic Churches to return to our Traditions.

I would also add that Vatican II did not reform the liturgy or create the “New” Mass. It just called for this to be done, what was worked out was done years after the council.
 
I don’t think your opening post is conducive to constructive dialogue with people that don’t identify themselves as traditionalists. Many non-traditionalists firmly love the New Mass, so to call it bland will only make people defensive.

As for Vatican II, it is a valid and holy ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church. My own feeling is that the documents can easily be reconciled with Tradition if we put the effort into it. The solution is to absorb them into the Church’s authentic patrimony and to read them in the light of previous ecclesial documents.

I have begun to read Lumen Gentium, and so far I find it to be a document with many beautiful statements and images. However, when reading it we must do so with a traditional mind and not an innovative mind.

I agree that the reforms which followed Vatican II have largely been disastrous. I just don’t think calling the New Mass bland will change the hearts and minds of anyone who does like or prefer that Mass.
Peace,
Ryan
 
Why do I love it? Because it heralded a return to the Church’s roots. In fact, I think you could call it ultra-traditional! 😃 As I understand my history, the Church had a Counter-Reformation and became more and more liturgically structured and formal, especially during the Liturgy, after the Protestant Reformation. Vatican II ushered in a change in thinking, under which it became understood that the people weren’t simply there to watch the priest say the Mass, but to become a part of the Mass themselves! There is–or should be–much more knowledge among Catholics about their own faith as a result of this. (Yes, I’m rambling… 😛 ) Furthermore, I hope that Vatican II would destroy the perceived dichotomy of Protestants being the Scriptural churches while the Catholics are the Liturgical churches…

Or something like that.

Peace!
Fred
 
I sense a battle brewing in this thread. Everyone: think long and hard before you post or reply to someone else’s post.
 
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Tradcat89:
I am a Trad-Cat. Always have been, always will. However, I was wondering why some of you love the Post-Vatican II days. I was hoping a few of you could give me some insight. I personally can’t get over how bland the New Mass is. Maybe you could share some of your experiences as well.

~Tradcat
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Having been an alter serer before Vatican II i can tell you personally (at least for me) the New Mass as you call it is much better today… first, there is nothing new… now everyone can understand the beautiful prayers of the Mass and that includes visiting protestants… we just turned the priest around to face the poeple which only makes sence (to me anyway) because we are the body of christ too… I have never fully understood the objections to making the Mass just easier for children and strangers to comprehend… do you?..
 
I’m 30 years old - I’ve been brought up with the ‘new’ Mass. However, I was brought up in a family who experienced the more traditional mass and my grandmother often talked of how things were done in her younger days.

So for 30 years I’ve been comfortable with the new Mass. Last year I went to an SSPX service, out of interest mainly. Despite a lot of reading beforehand and following the service on hand-outs provided I didn’t feel included in the Mass - I only felt like a bystander watching what was going on in front of me.

The homily preached only of how the modern church was wrong…for twenty minutes. Barely any reflection on the words we’d heard and no spiritual direction or ways to improve ourselves and live a more christ-like life were given.

Before I went, I thought I’d love it…I was wrong. What I love about the new Mass is being able to take part fully - making prayers and responses out loud. When I go to mass I want to feel that we’re all there to celebrate together.

A friend who happens to be a priest mentioned something to me the other day as we were discussing this very forum. He really feels passionately that before Vatican II there was too much emphasis on the priest and not enough on the actions he was undertaking.

I know my grandparents so often treated priests like ‘almost-perfect’ beings. Yes, our priests are incredibly special and they make huge sacrifices for us - but I think now we concentrate more on the liturgy, less on the person - and are more accepting of their human failings. The same ones we all have.

Sorry this has descended into a rant - no criticism of priests intended in this message…more of the way they have been ‘elevated’ in the past - being the only ones to celebrate rites, and to do this alone.

I hope this makes some kind of sense to readers. I’ve read many Vatican II/Tridentine posts lately and don’t want to start a fight!

Peace be with you

Vince
 
I neither love or dislike Vatican II, I take the council for what it is, a Pastoral Council. I take the liturgical reforms for what they are, calling for some vernacular and participation in mass. Anglican Use of the Roman missal is an excellent example of what Vatican II called for.
 
I have read through the document produced directly by Vatican II many times. They are very good and have a depth to them as well.

I have read through the documents produced since Vatican II by the Holy Fathers (again most of them many times). These are also excellent and build off of and elaborate of what was discussed in Vatican II.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a fruit of Vatican II, produced in response to many bishops in the council asking for it.

Mass in the venacular is also beneficial to most people as most people do not understand Latin well enough to understand well what is being said.

Do I appreciately greatly the work of Vatican II and its benefits for the Church and the World. **Yes. 👍 **

Now to your other question, “Do I find the New Mass bland?”

I go to every mass and put my heart fully in it and in doing that I have never found a mass bland. This includes masses where everything was sung, incense was used abundantly, full participation from everyone present to very simple daily masses with no singing or homily at all.

I love the mass and do all I can to get to get the most out of it. I have written a meditation on “Getting the Most out of Mass” encouraging everyone to do the same.
🙂
 
I want what God wants…and as a Catholic we believe that the Holy Spirit is always with the One, Holy,Catholic, and Apostolic Church…so be it! Vatican II is fine by me… I’m loyal to Rome and the Magisterium. And, I do love the Latin Mass as well.🙂
 
I love Vatican II primarily because I think it made some very positive changes to the Church. First and foremost, the three-year Lectionary cycle is a work of genius. Being able to go through the Scriptures really allows us Catholics to know more Scripture than in the earlier days. Also, I like being able to understand the words being spoken in Mass and the full and active participation of the laity in the Mass. This does NOT mean, however, that the laity can act like priests. They are not. But, being able to see, hear, and understand the priest’s words and actions allows me to feel that I am present at the Eucharistic Sacrifice rather than present while the priest quietly does it away from me. To me, the post-Vat II Mass is not at all bland but allows the opportunity for a balance to exist between the Sacrifice on the Altar and communal gathering around the Altar to worship and recieve our Lord in the Eucharist.
 
Well, I dont know what I can say that I love about Vatican II versus anything else because I am post-Vatican II person. I never had the opportunity to experience an all Latin mass or whatnot. My church has done Latin masses but the readings were still in English (thank goodness cause I was doing the readings). So I can say that I am deeply moved and enjoy the mass. I get a lot out of everything that is done during the mass and couldnt imagine what changes could/should happen.
 
Permanent Deacons owe their ministry to the call of God and Vatican II. This is one of the things that are special to me. Prisons, youth detention facilities, medical facilities, homes for the aged, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, and even parishes are very happy to have their deacons. And the deacons thank God for the opportunity.

Our mission…to go out where the church is not.
 
Servus Christi,
I apologize if I came across in a way that made you think I was trying to recruite Latin Mass goers. That was not my intention. Nor was I trying to discriminate. I am genuinly wanting to know why people like the Norvus Ordo. I was hoping that since I think that is bland some of you could convince me otherwise. Or at least offer some insight that I haven’t ever thought of.

VincentO,
I understand what you are saying about trying to be apart of the liturgy more. The Latin Mass doesn’t allow you to do this the same way. However, when I attend a Norvus Ordo, I find that when people “participate” they get carried away and make it a social gathering. For instance the kiss of peace. I was just at a Mass yesterday where people chatted during the Kiss of Peace for minutes! Isn’t that a disrespect to the Eucharist? Ok ok, that is a whole other subject.

I hope that all of you don’t feel like I am trying to make a point or start an argument. Honestly, that isn’t my intention. I just want to know what you think is gratifying in the Norvus Ordo.
 
Good Morning Church
Pope John XXIII made a few comments that I will never forget following his election.
He said and I am paraphrasing not having a photographic memory: All of my life, I have obeyed Holy Mother Church. From this day forward, I am to obey the Holy Spirit.
He also said that the Church needed the windows thrown open and the dust and cobwebs swept out.
Finally, in opening Vatican II, he prayed for the Holy Spirit as IN A NEW PENTECOST!
This wonderful, holy Pope was a surprise in his election. It was never expected or predicted. He was indeed chosen by the Holy Spirit do do precisely what he did.
He obeyed the Holy Spirit, opened Vatican II, and indeed we witnessed a New Pentecost.
Love it? How can I not love it? It is one of the highlights of my lifetime.
Come Holy Spirit, guide the mind, lips and hearts of your people. Amen

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_14.gif
 
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VincentO:
Before I went, I thought I’d love it…I was wrong…
Vince
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I’ve attended two TLM Masses so far, and I have the same exprience–rushed, completely inaudible prayers, inapplicable homily (when there was one), and a lack of any devotional participation of the laity.

While the NO may be lacking in proper implementation in some areas (abuses we’ve all seen or heard about), at least I am involved to the point where I have to pay attention!

A few clarifying questions:
  1. ** One apologetic technique I’ve seen to counter Protestant claims that Catholics don’t read their bibles is the example of the readings at Mass. **However, unless the people speak latin and have very good hearing(since the priest is not miked and reading so low that I doubt the altar server could even hear him), they really aren’t hearing the Scriptures read!
  2. **How can a lay person, attending the TLM maintain reverence and focus when the priest is saying the prayers so low and fast that, even WITH a missal, it’s impossible to keep track of where the priest is?
  3. I’ve heard some people complain (myself included) that the music in the NO is rather low in qualify, with the same, people-focused songs sung over and over. I’m confused though, as to WHEN the “classic” songs or chants were used, since in the TLM that I attend, there was no music/chanting at all!**
    When was music used before Vatican II? I’d be happy to hear better music at the NO Masses I attend, but where did this idea come from that the TLM’s music was “so much better?”
I was deeply hopeful, in attending the TLM, that I would experience what my tradionalist friends said was “the most beautiful thing this side of Heaven,” but I honestly didn’t “get it.”

So, back on topic, I can say that my experience is exactly the opposite of the original post. I find the Novus Ordo is full of beauty and reverence, while the TLM is, honestly, rather bland.
 
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Tradcat89:
I am a Trad-Cat. Always have been, always will. However, I was wondering why some of you love the Post-Vatican II days. I was hoping a few of you could give me some insight. I personally can’t get over how bland the New Mass is. Maybe you could share some of your experiences as well.

~Tradcat
Click to expand...
I do not know if the title of this thread is misleading or the topic has gone astray as often happens. Your initial post refers to what you are calling the “New Mass”, not Vatican II, so I will reply to both.

I neither love, nor abhor Vatican II.

I do love the Mass, because of the presence of Jesus. I prefer the current Mass in the venacular (English for me) because I understand it.

While I understand the beauty and attraction of Latin, I remember that it, too, was once the venacular.
 
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JNB:
I neither love or dislike Vatican II, I take the council for what it is, a Pastoral Council. I take the liturgical reforms for what they are, calling for some vernacular and participation in mass. Anglican Use of the Roman missal is an excellent example of what Vatican II called for.
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Thank you, thank you! I thought I was the only one who thought the Anglican Use a particularly beautiful example of liturgy.

As to the original question, Vatican II was a hugely important attempt to think clearly about what so many of us old-timers know was the difficulty of the Church at that time: apparently poor inclusion of the congregation, the majority of the Body of Christ, in the offering of the perpetual Sacrifce of the mass. At the same time, it seems to have allowed some demons into the sanctuary, too.

My personal opinion of the current hydra-headed liturgy is that it has become an abomination because of a general infatuation with novelty for novelty’s sake. V II merely opened the door; it needs to be closed again.
 
space ghost:
Having been an alter serer before Vatican II i can tell you personally (at least for me) the New Mass as you call it is much better today… first, there is nothing new… now everyone can understand the beautiful prayers of the Mass and that includes visiting protestants… we just turned the priest around to face the poeple which only makes sence (to me anyway) because we are the body of christ too… I have never fully understood the objections to making the Mass just easier for children and strangers to comprehend… do you?..
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I also am a pre vatican II alter server, and I agree with you 100%. The Mass in english is responsible for bringing my wife to the church. As far as being “bland”, I guess it’s just what you make of it. If you want entertainment, go to one of the mega-churches.
 
I am sorry everyone. I think that this is all very misleading. I can see that I was wrong calling the Norvus Ordo bland. Just that compared to the Tridentine Mass I miss all the beautiful prayers. I am very glad if some of you were brought to or back to the Faith by the Norvus Ordo. Please except my apologies for any offenses I might have caused anyone.

Aaron_brown99, I would just like to comment on a few things. When you went to the Tridentine Mass it sounds like you went to a low Mass. That’s when they don’t do the normal chants. With a missal you can understand everything the priest is saying. With time you do learn where he is in the Missal and if you get a priest loud enough (and many are) there shouldn’t be a problem following in the missal. I am very sorry you didn’t have a good experience.

For those of you who have gone to an SSPX Tridentine Mass, well I know how those sermons go. " The Church and the modern world are terrible, etc." Gotta say it, you picked the wrong Mass. I do like some parts of the Norvus Ordo. Some of the singing like, " Lamb of God" and stuff.

God Bless!
 
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