Why do you oppose immigration?

[Black_Rose]

Of course, I except most people’s opposition to immigration (or illegal immigration) to be mainly motivated by self-interest, instead of a through consideration of the common good. People would, of course, try to veil their self-interest by appealing to a version of morality by interpreting it in a fashion that would be in agreement with their interests.

I expressed my own views about it elsewhere, and they would be quite surprising to many.

Regardless of the actually motivations, I am interest enough to take a few minutes post a thread asking about people’s justifications for their position on immigration.

I’ll close with a quotation from Kevin MacDonald that is very controversial and frank:

“People opposed to immigration, they talk about economic problems and this and that. No one simply says “Europeans are not going to benefit from this as a group” that we are giving up control of our country to other peoples.”

 

[lizaanne]

Immigration is great - it allowed us to actually create an entire nation of immigrants. What’s not to love? My own husband immigrated here from England, and my great grand parents from Eastern Europe.


Illegal anything is unacceptable. I don’t care if it’s immigration, j-walking, or robbery.

~Liza

 

[Belle777]

Considering the horrible stuff that happens in other countries (though America is obviously far from perfect) I definitely support immigration.
I understand the problem with illegal immigration, it’s just that I think the people who want to live in America who aren’t there to cause problems should be given a chance to become a citizen and not just sent back to where they came from.

 

[Black_Rose]

Immigration is great - it allowed us to actually create an entire nation of immigrants. What’s not to love? My own husband immigrated here from England, and my great grand parents from Eastern Europe.


Illegal anything is unacceptable. I don’t care if it’s immigration, j-walking, or robbery.

~Liza

Ok… there are valid reasons for rendering j-walking or robbery illegal pertaining to public safety but why should immigration be illegal then? Why shouldn’t we have open borders for people who want to find employment in the US because of dire economic situations in their homeland? Besides it illegality, why should certain forms of immigration be considered “wrong” or “immoral”. Stating it is merely “illegal” is not a satisfactory explanation of one’s position because one would have to accept open borders if that is the law of the land.

 

[JimG]

I think that immigration is increasingly necessary for economic survival. The U.S. is barely above replacement fertility rate now, and that is probably due to immigration. Without immigration, it is likely that we would enter a spiral of declining population and stagnant economy.

Are immigrants “taking away” jobs from native born Americans? I doubt it. If immigration were cut off, would native workers take over the jobs they had been working? Again, I have my doubts. Without a supply of workers, it is more likely that industries would move to other countries for the workforce availability.

 

[lizaanne]

Ok… there are valid reasons for rendering j-walking or robbery illegal pertaining to public safety but why should immigration be illegal then? Why shouldn’t we have open borders for people who want to find employment in the US because of dire economic situations in their homeland? Besides it illegality, why should certain forms of immigration be considered “wrong” or “immoral”. Stating it is merely “illegal” is not a satisfactory explanation of one’s position because one would have to accept open borders if that is the law of the land.

You are trying to make this far more complex than it needs to be for the sake of a forum discussion. We have laws. Laws must be obeyed. Period.

I will humor you - of course we can’t have open borders. National security, social services, infrastructure – none of these things can be properly managed with an open border. There is a situation known as political asylum. If someone wants to apply for that then there are proper legal processes to follow to do so.

~Liza

 

[Black_Rose]

I think that immigration is increasingly necessary for economic survival. The U.S. is barely above replacement fertility rate now, and that is probably due to immigration. Without immigration, it is likely that we would enter a spiral of declining population and stagnant economy.

Are immigrants “taking away” jobs from native born Americans? I doubt it. If immigration were cut off, would native workers take over the jobs they had been working? Again, I have my doubts. Without a supply of workers, it is more likely that industries would move to other countries for the workforce availability.

…sigh… I think that is nonsense. A smaller labor force, in my opinion, is better. Look at what happened to the European economy after the Black Death. While it did not get immediately better for the survivors since the land owners enacted statues that controlled wages, it got better for them a few decades afterward.

 

[lizaanne]

The U.S. is barely above replacement fertility rate now, and that is probably due to immigration.

Well, that issue is due to contraception and abortion, but that is a discussion for another thread.

~Liza

 

[St_Francis]

Of course, I except most people’s opposition to immigration (or illegal immigration) to be mainly motivated by self-interest, instead of a through consideration of the common good…

I really take issue with your equating people who are against illegal immigration and those who are against legal immigration.

Would you equate people who are for legal drugs with those who are for the legalization of illegal drugs?

Legal immigration should, theoretically, be based on a thorough consideration of the common good, and illegal immigration is mainly motivated by the self-interest of those involved.

I am all for legal immigration, allowing people to come here who have been vetted to assure, at a minimum, that they are not criminals and that they do not have infectious diseases, and preferably that they have a means of supporting themselves and even some sort of support network for when they get here. I am for allowing people to come here on temporary work visas, since I know that not all those who come here want to stay here, altho this I think should be seriously limited to jobs that Americans really won’t take, and not just jobs that corporations want to pay less for.

There are a lot of problems with illegal immigration, aside from the fact that then there is a smokescreen for a lot of other illegal activities. The illegal immigrants themselves are unprotected and many are callously used by those who guide them into the country as well as those who hire them. Criminals and people who may not even know they have anti-biotic-resistant TB enter. It’s a mess.

 

[Della]

Ok… there are valid reasons for rendering j-walking or robbery illegal pertaining to public safety but why should immigration be illegal then? Why shouldn’t we have open borders for people who want to find employment in the US because of dire economic situations in their homeland?

As long as a country can absorb immigrant populations, there’s nothing wrong with it. Having said that, though countries can and do limit immigration if they see a problem with immigrants taking over the country’s culture, such as the Muslim “invasion” of France. As JimG cited, many European countries are awaking too late to the fact that they haven’t been replacing their own population and are in danger of being overrun by people from very foreign cultures and so are in danger of losing their national identity. It’s a legitimate concern for any country.

Besides it illegality, why should certain forms of immigration be considered “wrong” or “immoral”. Stating it is merely “illegal” is not a satisfactory explanation of one’s position because one would have to accept open borders if that is the law of the land.

Criminals should not be allowed to immigrate into any country. Just now the USA is seeing drug wars by cartels in our southern neighbors. It would grossly irresponsible to let all and sundry simply walk across our borders knowing that hardened criminals, which their own countries can’t even control, to do whatever they please. We can’t be naive in such matters. Not everyone who wants to come to America simply wants a better life for themselves and their families. We need to weed out those that have nefarious intentions who would contribute nothing but mayhem to our society.

 

[Della]

…sigh… I think that is nonsense. A smaller labor force, in my opinion, is better. Look at what happened to the European economy after the Black Death. While it did not get immediately better for the survivors since the land owners enacted statues that controlled wages, it got better for them a few decades afterward.

According to this logic, letting in immigrants would add to the population thereby negating the “good effects” of a decreased population. Now that doesn’t make sense.

 

[JohnDamian]

I love immigrants.

Most of the world is made up of immigrants; where I live presently (England) is particularily hostile to immigrants owing to some silly notion of “national identity”… We are a nation of immigrants; from the Celts; the Romans; The Saxons; The Jutes; The Normans; and so on and so forth we formed our present country.

Likewise with America. If people resist immigrants through fear that they will lose their “national identity” - well if their national identity is so weak it can be overrun by another it may not be a bad thing. A strong national identity should inspire people to unite and join in; not to overrun or undermine. Cultures develop with time; and I am fascinated with what the world will look like in fifty years.

We should welcome and embrace our neighbors. Fear and hatred is not Christian.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Likewise with America. If people resist immigrants through fear that they will lose their “national identity” - well if their national identity is so weak it can be overrun by another it may not be a bad thing. A strong national identity should inspire people to unite and join in; not to overrun or undermine. Cultures develop with time; and I am fascinated with what the world will look like in fifty years.

We should welcome and embrace our neighbors. Fear and hatred is not Christian.

I disagree with a couple of things. I think that immigration should NOT be eliminated, but should be cut down drastically.

Why?

I think right now we in America are in serious danger of losing our national identity. The country right now is in a battle between liberalism and conservatism. As Catholics, obviously we are more or less all conservative. But the new influx of immigrants are mostly liberal.
Also important is that I think that Muslims are eventually going to “overrun” for lack of a better word, the country. I think right now it’s already happening to France and England and in America it’s started.

I think that in many ways new immigrants are harming national identity far more than NOT having immigrants would.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I really take issue with your equating people who are against illegal immigration and those who are against legal immigration.

Would you equate people who are for legal drugs with those who are for the legalization of illegal drugs?

Legal immigration should, theoretically, be based on a thorough consideration of the common good, and illegal immigration is mainly motivated by the self-interest of those involved.

I am all for legal immigration, allowing people to come here who have been vetted to assure, at a minimum, that they are not criminals and that they do not have infectious diseases, and preferably that they have a means of supporting themselves and even some sort of support network for when they get here. I am for allowing people to come here on temporary work visas, since I know that not all those who come here want to stay here, altho this I think should be seriously limited to jobs that Americans really won’t take, and not just jobs that corporations want to pay less for.

There are a lot of problems with illegal immigration, aside from the fact that then there is a smokescreen for a lot of other illegal activities. The illegal immigrants themselves are unprotected and many are callously used by those who guide them into the country as well as those who hire them. Criminals and people who may not even know they have anti-biotic-resistant TB enter. It’s a mess.

 

[Black_Rose]

According to this logic, letting in immigrants would add to the population thereby negating the “good effects” of a decreased population. Now that doesn’t make sense.

Actually, immigrants from Mexico have a higher birth rate in the US than in their homeland.

Yes, there are “good effects” of a decreased population. Don’t they increase the labor supply when a smaller labor supply has very good effects?

 

[Black_Rose]

I disagree with a couple of things. I think that immigration should NOT be eliminated, but should be cut down drastically.

Why?

As Catholics, obviously we are more or less all conservative. But the new influx of immigrants are mostly liberal.

I think that in many ways new immigrants are harming national identity far more than NOT having immigrants would.

What? Immigrants are actually socially conservative as they opposed gay marriage and abortion, but it is in their economic interest to vote for redistributive economic policies. If one is able to distill social conservatism from a solution of economic conservatism, they would vote against gay marriage and abortion on individual ballot propositions. But in this case, social issues MUST be separated from economic issues.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

If you had a smaller labour force wages would go up as labour would be in short supply, supply and demand and all that. What’s not to like about getting paid more for the work you do?

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Of course, I except most people’s opposition to immigration (or illegal immigration) to be mainly motivated by self-interest, instead of a through consideration of the common good. People would, of course, try to veil their self-interest by appealing to a version of morality by interpreting it in a fashion that would be in agreement with their interests.

I expressed my own views about it elsewhere, and they would be quite surprising to many.

Regardless of the actually motivations, I am interest enough to take a few minutes post a thread asking about people’s justifications for their position on immigration.

I’ll close with a quotation from Kevin MacDonald that is very controversial and frank:

“People opposed to immigration, they talk about economic problems and this and that. No one simply says “Europeans are not going to benefit from this as a group” that we are giving up control of our country to other peoples.”

I don’t oppose immigration.

I oppose ILLEGAL ALIENS.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Interesting question.

You would get the idea that there are NO legal immigrants or NO legal aliens.

Would someone be so kind as to look up how many LEGAL immigrants there are in the United States, either in total and/or annually.

 

[JimG]

…sigh… I think that is nonsense. A smaller labor force, in my opinion, is better. Look at what happened to the European economy after the Black Death. While it did not get immediately better for the survivors since the land owners enacted statues that controlled wages, it got better for them a few decades afterward.

When a quarter of the workforce dies in a short time, that can surely lead to labor shortages and higher wages. But killing off a substantial percent of the population doesn’t strike me as a good method of economic development. If it works that well, nuclear war should do wonders for the economy. In most countries a growing population portends a growing economy, and a population in decline portends ghost towns and a shrinking economy. Without immigration Europe will find itself in a depopulation spiral; the U.S. should avoid such a fate.