Why do you oppose immigration?

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Black_Rose said:
I posted an example of one person’s (Kevin MacDonald) honest and open views about immigration without hiding behind the facade of its legality. He simply says it would not benefit European people without any fear of being labeled politically incorrect, racist, or a xenophobe.

youtube.com/watch?v=mCSeSOVCfkk

It is worth listening to the entire video if one has ten minutes.
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ARGH!!! I posted an incredibly long series of comments on what this guy says, and my log-in timed out, and on this computer that means I lost all the comments…

So, quickly, as it’s late, is what you are wanting some sort of explanation of what he has said, a defense of sorts?
 
St_Francis said:
ARGH!!! I posted an incredibly long series of comments on what this guy says, and my log-in timed out, and on this computer that means I lost all the comments…

So, quickly, as it’s late, is what you are wanting some sort of explanation of what he has said, a defense of sorts?
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Please try to provide a summary of what you originally attempted to post. I highly respect MacDonald for his honesty and insight.
 
Black_Rose said:
Please try to provide a summary of what you originally attempted to post. I highly respect MacDonald for his honesty and insight.
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Please try to address the earnest and honest questions addressed to you rather than dodge them. Show some intellectual honesty, rather than typical leftist spin.
 
rpp said:
Please try to address the earnest and honest questions addressed to you rather than dodge them. Show some intellectual honesty, rather than typical leftist spin.
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Again, I do not think of MacDonald negatively and my previous post intent was to solicit opinions on a ten minute clips about his opinions on immigration,

The main purpose of this thread was to illustrate that most people’s perspectives on immigration is mainly motivated by self-interested, not some utilitarian concern for the common good.
 
Black_Rose said:
Again, I do not think of MacDonald negatively and my previous post intent was to solicit opinions on a ten minute clips about his opinions on immigration,

The main purpose of this thread was to illustrate that most people’s perspectives on immigration is mainly motivated by self-interested, not some utilitarian concern for the common good.
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And you have yet to illustrate that.
 
‘Utilitarian’ is a word that should bring chills down the spine of any Christian.

It was utilitarianism that declared Terri Schiavo, innocent of any crime, must die.

And calling illegal aliens ‘undocumented immigrants’ is like calling a heroin-pusher an ‘unlicensed pharmacist.’
 
Black_Rose said:
Please try to provide a summary of what you originally attempted to post. I highly respect MacDonald for his honesty and insight.
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Being more wide-awake, i think that I can be a little more concise 🙂
  1. **If **what he says about the immigration of socialist/communist East European Jews is correct, that they were aggressive in promoting radical changes to the nation to which they had immigrated (e, the USA), I think that undermining the society and economic system of the nation you have come to is over the top, and should result in limitations on immigration. For example, I would oppose allowing entry to Mexicans who think that if they come here they can “grab” the US or parts thereof from the US; I thought the American journalist who exposed the over-spending of the MPs in England was odd, etc.
  2. I disagree with him that the immigration of the Irish and the Italians went smoothly: in fact, the immigration of so many Catholics resulted in the founding of our current school system, with which I have many issues, as well as the Catholic parochial education system. It may well be that with the founding of Catholic schools, Americans who were against immigration (which was overall very high at that time) had nowhere to turn but to limitations on immigration in the early part of the 1900’s.
  3. I totally disagree with him about the European civilization thing. First of all, I do not have the same views about race and ethnicity that he does, and secondly, and more importantly, I do not share the same view of “European civilization.”
When I look at European civilization, I see a social structure built upon Catholicism, and from the initial tearing of that foundation by the protestants’ deviation from the truth upon which European civilization was founded through the soi-disant Enlightenment and subsequent boundariless inhuman philosophies, European civilization has declined and used up all its Catholic “capital.”

A strong social structure would be able to assimilate immigrants; it is the weakness of the structure itself which leads to what MacDonald fears. He would not have to worry about non-Europeans entering the US if it weren’t for the fact that what tattered shreds of “European civilization” we have left were instead a a strong Catholic culture on the rise.
 
Black_Rose said:
…The main purpose of this thread was to illustrate that most people’s perspectives on immigration is mainly motivated by self-intereste, not some utilitarian concern for the common good.
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Do you think it’s nice of you to hold certain negative ideas about people and then try to trick them into revealing those tendencies?

I think that the responses you received were more along the lines of thinking immigration is overall a good, and that opposition to immigration is directed not towards immigration itself but illegal immigration, which causes a lot of problems, not the least of which are those experienced by the illegal immigrants themselves.
 
Black_Rose said:
…The main purpose of this thread was to illustrate that most people’s perspectives on immigration is mainly motivated by self-interested, not some utilitarian concern for the common good.
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And what, for you, constitutes a utilitarian concern for the common good, considering that utilitariansim in and of itself implies self-interest?
 
Black_Rose said:
Again, I do not think of MacDonald negatively and my previous post intent was to solicit opinions on a ten minute clips about his opinions on immigration,

The main purpose of this thread was to illustrate that most people’s perspectives on immigration is mainly motivated by self-interested, not some utilitarian concern for the common good.
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You continue to dodge the hard questions and have utterly failed to make you point. You have proven nothing except that your opinion seems to be utterly impervious to facts and that you refuse to actually address the short-comings of your ridiculous and insulting premise. Particularly about your refusal to address the differences between legal and illegal immigration. You sir, are not demonstrating intellectual honesty.

Your premise is flawed. The flaws have been pointed out to you. You refuse to acknowledge them. You sound like Obama.
 
Black_Rose said:
The main purpose of this thread was to illustrate that most people’s perspectives on immigration is mainly motivated by self-interested, not some utilitarian concern for the common good.
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It would seem then that this thread is a failure.

Nearly everyone to respond to your original post was in favor of lawful immigration.
 
vz71 said:
It would seem then that this thread is a failure.
Nearly everyone to respond to your original post was in favor of lawful immigration.
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JulieAA said:
Why would you consider this thread a failure when all, with the exception of one person, is in agreement?
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Because the stated purpose of the thread from the original poster was not accomplished.
The original poster wished to point out selfishness.
Black_Rose said:
The main purpose of this thread was to illustrate that most people’s perspectives on immigration is mainly motivated by self-interested, not some utilitarian concern for the common good.
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Instead the OP ended up highlighting unity.
 
Black_Rose said:
Of course, I except most people’s opposition to immigration (or illegal immigration) to be mainly motivated by self-interest, instead of a through consideration of the common good. People would, of course, try to veil their self-interest by appealing to a version of morality by interpreting it in a fashion that would be in agreement with their interests.

I expressed my own views about it elsewhere, and they would be quite surprising to many.

Regardless of the actually motivations, I am interest enough to take a few minutes post a thread asking about people’s justifications for their position on immigration.

I’ll close with a quotation from Kevin MacDonald that is very controversial and frank:

“People opposed to immigration, they talk about economic problems and this and that. No one simply says “Europeans are not going to benefit from this as a group” that we are giving up control of our country to other peoples.”
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No one is opposed to legal immigration, just illegal immigration.

Why would you be opposed to someone putting your all your stuff to the road and then moving into your house? :rolleyes:
 
I don’t.
“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
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Black_Rose said:
Of course, I except most people’s opposition to immigration (or illegal immigration) to be mainly motivated by self-interest, instead of a through consideration of the common good. People would, of course, try to veil their self-interest by appealing to a version of morality by interpreting it in a fashion that would be in agreement with their interests.

I expressed my own views about it elsewhere, and they would be quite surprising to many.

Regardless of the actually motivations, I am interest enough to take a few minutes post a thread asking about people’s justifications for their position on immigration.

I’ll close with a quotation from Kevin MacDonald that is very controversial and frank:

“People opposed to immigration, they talk about economic problems and this and that. No one simply says “Europeans are not going to benefit from this as a group” that we are giving up control of our country to other peoples.”
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I oppose illegal immigration because we need a system of knowing WHO is within our borders.
Pure and simple, we need to know if they are a criminal,etc.
Also, long term, we cannot accept everyone who wants to come here because it would throw off our economic stability, and turn ours into a third world country over time perhaps.
So, to get the GREATEST return over the LONGEST period of time it makes sense to have maximum limits and background checks, so that this nation can continue over time to HELP the greatest amount of immigrant claim a BETTER life here.
 
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

They came to Ellis Island, an ISLAND. Those that were unfit for entry were sent back.

We need much better control of immigration. Congress won’t do it because powerful interests like things the way they are. Remember this when you vote this fall.

The OP seemed to want to discuss the morality of it. Earlier I tried to bring the morality down to a very personal level. The OP would not answer.

For someting to be moral, IMHO, it must also work on a personal basis. If it doesn’t work on a personal basis, how can it be moral on a larger community, state, national basis - in effect as long it is somebody else’s problem, it is moral.

There is a moral difference between taking without permission and giving with love, IMHO.
 
Black_Rose said:
Ok… there are valid reasons for rendering j-walking or robbery illegal pertaining to public safety but why should immigration be illegal then? Why shouldn’t we have open borders for people who want to find employment in the US because of dire economic situations in their homeland? Besides it illegality, why should certain forms of immigration be considered “wrong” or “immoral”. Stating it is merely “illegal” is not a satisfactory explanation of one’s position because one would have to accept open borders if that is the law of the land.
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We have open borders, but it’s not the law of the land.:rolleyes: I reject illegal immigration because it is against the law. Laws are made to protect folks from such people whose illegal crossing of the border in the Tucson area have caused caution signs being raised 60 miles from the border warning people it is dangerous territory. If everyone had morals there would be no problem. Unfortunately the drug lords don’t. It’s a safety issue, safety for US citizens and even those who have come illegally, but peacefully, looking for a better life.
 
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