Why do you regularly attend the tridentine mass?

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Yeah, I realized after people started quoting me that I made a reading error. Serves me right for doing three things at once.

What I did find out was that a revised Missal apparently was released because they came out with a new translation of the Vulgate, so the old Missal had the old Vulgate translation. Which is neat considering we just had a fresh round of OF translation changes.

EDIT: I do Platform Implementation, which means I do a bit of everything. Technically my job is supposed to be just building servers and server environments, but I get dragged into writing documents/procedures, training new hires, and generally making sure that large corporations have functional servers.
 
Doubtful. I have an old missal from the 1930s. The changes are minimal outside of Bugnini’s tinkering with Holy Week. It’s completely absurd to say the Mass from 20 years earlier wouldn’t even resemble what we have today.
🙂
 
Just as a heads up: Wikipedia is not a reliable source and should never be used in any sort of academic setting (I know this is not an academic setting). The main reason being that it can be edited by almost anybody. Which often results in puff pieces and sometimes results in vandalism of an article.

Having said that, it is valuable because it is generally footnoted.

(If you want to see an example of why Wikipedia is not reliable, just look at the tone of the entry on Mitt Romney. It reads like it was written by a member of his campaign staff. Or look at the history page on Sarah Palin…but go back about 2,500 edits or so)

On edit: you *do *realize I was just giving you a hard time, right?
As you stated, this is not an academic setting. Wikipedia is a reliable source for general information. Discussing the terminology of the Latin Mass does not require an academic source.
 
I don’t regularly attend mass in the Extraordinary Form, because we don’t have it. I’m not sure that we would want to have it as our daily mass. No, to be honest, we have discussed it and we have chosen not to have it as our daily mass. However, we do have it occasionally.

Nonetheless, I would like to share some reasons that people have shared with me for attending the mass in the Extraordinary Form. They range from the ridiculous to the sublime, from the humorous to the ascetic. So I’ll provide one of each.

I remember being on a bus and a lady sat next to me. I was in my habit and she asked if I was a priest. I said that I was not and proceeded to explain that I am a friar, but most people simply call me Brother, which I really appreciate. Even though some communities have reverted by the title Friar, I can’t quite hear it without remembering Robin Hood, where the friar is actually a monk, not a friar.

The Lady was very polite and listened very attentively as I explained all of this and the fact that many friars are priests. I just happen to be one those who are not. She informed me, “I guess you never learned Latin then.” To which I responded that I had 6-years of Latin under my belt, because it was required to get my degree in theology. In my particular branch of theology, Latin is a must, along with Greek. Now the ridiculous begins.

She then proceeded to tell me that she only attends Latin masses. I politely nodded. Not really trying to encourage her, but just acknowledging that I had heard. Usually, when someone leads into a sentence with, “I only attend Latin masses,” you can bet $5.00 that the because is going to be some kind of slam of the Ordinary Form. I’ve heard enough of those and didn’t want to go down that road. But my traveling companion did. Unfortunately for me, this was a five-hour bus ride. I held my breadth for the slam-dunk of the Ordinary Form. OK, she didn’t say anything about the OF that I had not heard before and I was not going to agree or disagree with her. I tried to shift the focus by asking her what she gets out of the EF, my mistake. She turned around and said, “Peace and quiet.” That was it. I waited for more, but nothing more came. She shifted subjects. At the end of the trip we said our goodbyes. I remember getting off the bus at the terminal in NYC and walking down into the subway wondering, “How quiet was it at Calvary. There has to be more to it than peace and quiet.” Then I smiled.

I’ve also heard the sublime. The sublime also put a smile on my face, but for a better reason. One Saturday, I was at a church giving a talk on abortion. The group must have been about 40 to 50 people. Suddenly, in the middle of my talk a woman lets out a cry of angst and says, “I can’t take it anymore.”

Well, I’ve given many talks on the life issues, spiritual theology, Sacred Scripture, even psychology, but I had never driven anyone to cry out in angst, “I can’t take it anymore.” I’m not Fulton Sheen, but I never thought I was that bad of a speaker either. I usually get positive feedback after my talks. But I figured that there is always that moment when the Lord chooses to humble you just to remind you that it is he that is speaking and not you. And when you try to take over, people can’t take it. I made my concluding remarks, not wishing to torture anyone else.

When I finished, a volunteer came to me and said that the woman who had cried out was in the lobby and wanted to speak to me. I went to her and we spoke. It turned out that she was 75-years old. Had an abortion when she was 20 and had later left the Church to join a Protestant community. She had come to my talk accompanying her daughter, who is Catholic and interested in pro-life ministry. What she could not take was holding in the pain of having killed her child. We talked for about an hour.

I looked at my watch, but it was too late for confessions. They were over. I suggested to her that she go to mass in the morning and call the parish office to make an appointment for confession. But at least, begin with mass. This particular parish has an EF mass at an ungodly hour of the morning. I really believe that the people who attend it have a great love for the EF mass. They have to share the only priest who celebrates the EF in a 50 mile radius. He says that mass and drives about an hour to celebrate another.

Anyway, on Monday I get a call. A young woman’s voice is at the other end. “Brother, my mother and I attended your talk on Saturday. She’s the lady who was very upset with whom you spoke later. She wants to speak to you. Do you have a minute?” I always have a minute for someone who wants to talk about abortion.

The older lady, the mother, came to the telephone. She said, “Brother, I just want to thank you. I did as you suggested. I got up bright and early and had my daughter drive me over to Church for mass. I couldn’t receive communion, because I haven’t been to confession in 40+ years. However, when the mass began, I felt that I had come home. I couldn’t contain my tears. I didn’t know that they still said mass in Latin, since I haven’t been around in a long time. Having attended that mass is going to make it easier to go to confession, because I feel like Dorothy. There’s no place like home. This is where I belong. I’ll be going back to that mass and after my appointment with the priest, I’ll be able to kneel there and go to communion, back home again. Thank you," and I smiled.

Not THAT, is sublime. The peace and quiet thing is OK. But you can get peace and quiet in your bathroom. But coming home and finding that someone has been waiting for you to return for 40 years and realizing that this is where you belong is sublime.

I ran out of space. I’ll have to do the humorous and the ascetic in another post.
 
Wow Br. Jr. You always seem to have amazing stories to tell! 😉
 
I cannot attend the Latin EF becuase it is not offered anywhere in my diocese.

I would like to at least once, becuase I learened the Ordinary singing in school choir.

But when it comes to the propers I would be at a complete loss.
 
I did promise the humorous and the ascetic. Now you have to bear with me. What I find humorous others may not. Ascetic is different. Something is or is not ascetic.

About a year ago, I was giving a chastity talk to a group of college kids. I do a lot of those talks. They come easily to me, having been a university and seminary professor and dean for 35 years before retiring. I feel at home with the college age kids, graduate students and cats. There was a young lady who attends a Catholic university that has mass in the Extraordinary Form available to its students. I believe it’s every Sunday and maybe once or twice during the week. I don’t want to tell a lie, so I’ll have to say, “I believe”. I heard that somewhere, but I have not seen it myself. But I digress.

At the end of my talk the young lady approached me and said, “Father, do you have a moment.” Well, that threw me off. You see, at the time, I was the superior and in my community everyone is Brother, even priests; but the superior is always Father, even to the laity. It makes no difference if he’s not a priest. He is Francis; therefore, he is Father. This group of kids know us well. We don’t run their parish, but we live within its boundaries. They see us at mass and we volunteer here and there, when we’re not working at our pregnancy centers.

As she continued to speak, I realized that she thought that she was speaking to a priest. How could she tell us apart? We all dress the same. None of us has a name tag or special insignia that says “cleric”. Before she proceeded to go into a confession, I said, “I’m not a priest. I’m a religious.”

This is where things began to get funny. She said to me, “Why are you called Father?” I explained the concept. One would have thought that I had told her that her mother wore army boots. She looked me straight in the eye and said, “That’s why I go to the TLM.”

“I beg your pardon,” I said. I was truly confused. She responded, “At least there, the Fathers are real priests.” The conversation continued for a bit and she asked a few questions about my talk, which apparently had been her intention for getting me alone for a moment. After we parted I started to laugh and I could not stop myself. At least at the TLM, the fathers are real priests.

I’m assuming that there is more to her attendance at the EF than this, but I have to admit that this was the funniest reason for preferring the EF. I went home and said to Brother A, “You’re not a real priest.” He looked at me as if I had lost my mind. “You go by Brother instead of Father.” Then he really thought I had lost my mind. He said, “So do many other clerics who are religious. Is your diabetes acting up again?”

Now to the ascetic, this is really another beautiful story. It actually happened to me at an SSPX chapel. Before anyone calls my bishop or my superior, since I’m no longer the superior, the bishop and my superior had given me permission to attend this mass.

The mother of one of our Secular Franciscans died. The lady attended mass at the local SSPX chapel. Her children wanted to have her funeral mass at the SSPX chapel that Mom loved. The daughter who is a Secular Franciscan came to me and asked, “Is it OK, if I attend my mother’s funeral mass?” I knew why she was asking. I explained to her, “The Church would never deny someone a corporal work of mercy. To bury the dead is one of them. Francis would want you to attend your mother’s funeral mass.”

I knew that she wanted to attend her mother’s funeral mass, but she wanted to make sure that attend mass at an SSPX chapel was kosher with the Franciscans. So I said, “I’ll tell you what. I’ll go with you, if it’s OK with your family.” She said that it would be OK and she left. We agreed to meet outside of the chapel, before the mass began.

However, I was not counting on there being no car available. We have one car that 12 of us share. You have to sign it out in advance. OK, no big deal. The SSPX chapel is about five miles away. I can start walking and when the bus comes, I can hop on the rest of the way. I won’t wear my habit. I’ll wear clericals (which I hate) just to keep cool. Everyone says that the clerical shirt was created by a Protestant minister in Scotland. I believe it was created by his wife, who really had a secret desire to choke the son of a gun. Back to our story.

I’m diabetic and I have leukemia. When you take as many meds as I do and have a strict diet, yadda yadda yadda, you’re not supposed to be out in the sun too long. This was August. Well, the bus finally came by when I was at mile three, my clerical shirt was soaked in sweat. I had pulled the tab out of my collar, put it into my pocket, and undid my two top buttons on my shirt. In other words, I looked a mess.

I arrived late at the chapel, out of breadth. The man at the door was not exactly the right person to be on the welcoming committee, if that was his job. I never found out. The thing was that he did not like what he saw.

He blocked my way and said, “Father, if you’re going into church you need to be properly dressed.” Well I could have been blown over with a feather. I had no idea what he was talking about. Suddenly I realized it. My shirt was unbuttoned at the top and the tab was in my pocket. I thanked him, buttoned my shirt, slipped the tab into my collar and went inside.

Needless to say, the part of the mass that I caught was beautiful. I looked around and saw my Franciscan sister at the front with her family. Not wanting to intrude, I slipped into the pew behind them. After the mass, as we were waiting for everyone to get organized into their proper cars, my spiritual sister said to me, “I was afraid to come, but when I saw you arrive, saw the state you were in, and felt my sense of loss, the asceticism of the mass struck home.” I smiled.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, OSF 🙂
 
I quite like the peace and quiet at the TLM. As the people in the sanctuary are in uniform and turned away from you, you don’t look at them. As the priest is saying the prayers quietly, you are quiet.

I think the TLM evolved the way it did because it worked and it was a mistake to make the swingeing changes that occurred from the 50’s onwards. Like we’re suddenly so smart we can re-invent the wheel, with no serious consequences.

People starting to dance in churches should have been the giveaway, even for the most progressive liturgist. Unless you think the Church started in the 1960’s.

However, if you think Mass is primarily a commemorative, thanksgiving meal, with a presider, then the changes make sense. You can be a lot more casual and expressive. It’s not so serious.
 
Even though, for many years, I argued that the heartfelt sincerity and love with which one attended the New Mass was much more important than the type of Mass it happened to be, and I was, at the time, only able to attend the New Mass, my thinking has shifted quite a lot since then. I accept that the New Mass is a valid Mass. Millions of Catholics are attending the Mass in the vernacular, worldwide, and the Pope accepts it, etc. etc. Millions gain Grace from their obedience and worship, etc. etc. However, my firm belief is that, with Vatican II’s decisions, the Traditional Mass should have been translated directly into the vernacular, for each language, thus keeping the words of the Old Mass, and not changing them at all. The words are so much more beautiful, and more sacrificial, and more worshipful, than in the Novus Ordo. The particular language (English or whatever) isn’t the point, for me. Being in Latin doesn’t make it better, even though Latin happens to be the official language of the Church. A simple comparison of the words of the New Mass compared with the words of the Old shows this. The Novus Ordo is the Mass stripped back to its basic shell. Being able to understand what is said doesn’t necessarily make it better.
 
As you stated, this is not an academic setting. Wikipedia is a reliable source for general information. Discussing the terminology of the Latin Mass does not require an academic source.
You do realize I was just giving you a hard time.
 
I think most people will agree Latin was used during the Mass for a considerable amount of time, either on it’s own or in conjunction with other languages. The question then becomes is “A” Latin Mass or “THE” Latin Mass, with a few people here claiming the later.

Something to note the reason WHY they had come up with the Tridentine Mass was because of the reformation. They wanted to make sure that people knew what Liturgy and the Catholic Church was all about. Even then, not everyone was onboard. The Maronites flat out refused to do it (and remained within the Church, I may add)…

Anyway, I recall reading here once that way back when, St. Francis asked the Pope for a stripped down Missal. His followers were often uneducated, so they couldn’t figure out the current Mass. Francis found that it promoted inequality between his brothers. He also understood that to live in abject poverty, they simply couldn’t afford to have everything needed to do the Mass as it was.

The Pope at the time handed Francis a Missal, and Francis ran with it. Then something funny happened; as they traveled Europe setting themselves up to do their thing, their version of the Mass spread. This Mass, obviously was different than the others. What did happen was that this Mass caught the eyes of the Pope at the time.

The Franciscan’s Mass received a couple of changes here or there, and became the backbone of what we used to refer to as the Tridentine Rite.

So yes, the Mass did change. In fact, even after St. Pius V made that comment about how nothing would change, he went out and changed the Missal anyway by adding a Feast Day (adding Feast Days is changing the Missal). The Extraordinary Form we have now certainly doesn’t resemble one from 100 years ago, let alone 1500. About the only thing that didn’t change was the use of Latin, and that’s only in the West.
Melchior, I’m going to be charitable and assume that you haven’t read the Bull ‘Quo Primus’ which I posted where Pope St Pius V states quite explicitly that the mass was revised according to ancient sources and codices. The changes you mention and which undeniably occurred most strikingly by Pope St Pius X, Pope Pius XII and Pope John XXIII are changes to the form not the substance of the mass. Yes readings were added here and there, yes the liturgical calendar was changed massively, but almost all of the mass e.g the canon, the genuflections, the signs of the cross etc… and almost all the words of the mass have remained the same for hundreds if not thousands of years.

For your benefit Quo Primus states

'**From the very first, upon Our elevation to the chief Apostleship, We gladly turned our mind and energies and directed all out thoughts to those matters which concerned the preservation of a pure liturgy, and We strove with God’s help, by every means in our power, to accomplish this purpose. For, besides other decrees of the sacred Council of Trent, there were stipulations for Us to revise and re-edit the sacred books: the Catechism, the Missal and the Breviary. With the Catechism published for the instruction of the faithful, by God’s help, and the Breviary thoroughly revised for the worthy praise of God, in order that the Missal and Breviary may be in perfect harmony, as fitting and proper - for its most becoming that there be in the Church only one appropriate manner of reciting the Psalms and only one rite for the celebration of Mass - We deemed it necessary to give our immediate attention to what still remained to be done, viz, the re-editing of the Missal as soon as possible.

Hence, We decided to entrust this work to learned men of our selection. They very carefully collated all their work with the ancient codices in Our Vatican Library and with reliable, preserved or emended codices from elsewhere. Besides this, these men consulted the works of ancient and approved authors concerning the same sacred rites; and thus they have restored the Missal itself to the original form and rite of the holy Fathers. When this work has been gone over numerous times and further emended, after serious study and reflection, We commanded that the finished product be printed and published as soon as possible, so that all might enjoy the fruits of this labor; and thus, priests would know which prayers to use and which rites and ceremonies they were required to observe from now on in the celebration of Masses. **’
 
are changes to the form not the substance of the mass.
You posted the document already, and I referenced said document already in an earlier post, so there’s no need to post it again.

But it’s the line above I quoted is the one I’m interested in. Where did the substance change within the Mass? How was the substance transformed within the Ordinary Form, as it were?
 
This depends on what we mean when we say “created.”

If you mean that the missal was written, published and declared authoritative in the very form as published then it would be accurate to use the word “created.”

In the same manner, we would have to say the OF was “created” a fortnight ago, because a new translation was promulagated, declared authoritative and published in new missals for use in the English speaking lands.
This is a great point. Would ‘codified’ be a better word? That rite became official in terms of a stamp being put on paper, so to speak, but definitely not created. In a similar way certain teachings become ‘official’ when they are made dogma, although the church always believed it. Like purgatory for example. The concept was not invented when it became ‘official’.
 
However, my firm belief is that, with Vatican II’s decisions, the Traditional Mass should have been translated directly into the vernacular, for each language, thus keeping the words of the Old Mass, and not changing them at all.
When you translate and retranslate, you change philosophy, theology, singability, thought flow, etc. The whole point of language is to distinguish (or identify) nuances, culture, nations, philosophy, government, ideology, etc. The Usus Antiquior (old Latin Mass) was codified by Trent in its rubrics and Latin texts. Translating into 500 vernaculars simply creates 500 different liturgies and 500 controversies. How many Anglophones are convinced they have a different liturgy now, for example?
 
To be able to see people and the priest at least respecting the host… and some others… I choose 2
 
anybody here a part of the SSPX? What are the general opinions on it here? Is it against forum rules to support it?

I don’t understand why, instead of just simply attending an EF Mass provided by the diocese, people join the SSPX? Last week I went to an EF Mass for the first time in my life, and I did it because I simply wanted to see what it was like. I don’t see why anyone would want to join a schismatic group when they could go to a Latin Mass and still be fully in the Church.
 
anybody here a part of the SSPX? What are the general opinions on it here? Is it against forum rules to support it?

I don’t understand why, instead of just simply attending an EF Mass provided by the diocese, people join the SSPX? Last week I went to an EF Mass for the first time in my life, and I did it because I simply wanted to see what it was like. I don’t see why anyone would want to join a schismatic group when they could go to a Latin Mass and still be fully in the Church.
We have people like me… Where the normal OF mass is not even available… Here… we have 2 EF mass a month… but its 4 hrs drive from my house 🙂 And I dont even have a car… Haha…

so… I dont have much of a choice to attend a OF mass…
 
You posted the document already, and I referenced said document already in an earlier post, so there’s no need to post it again.

But it’s the line above I quoted is the one I’m interested in. Where did the substance change within the Mass? How was the substance transformed within the Ordinary Form, as it were?
I posted it again because you were claiming the TLM in fact was not very old at all, as long as people post things that are wrong, reference needs to be made to the facts to correct them.

As for your latter sentence that cannot be discussed without breaking forum rules on pitting the two forms against each other, you can find such information easily enough on the internet. Or you can PM me if you wish, but I won’t be discussing it on the open forum so as to abide by the rules.
 
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