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JM3
Guest
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mattkubes
Guest
JM3: the interior aspect of worship certainly doesn’t refer to our emotions. You’re grossly mistaken if that’s your reading of Pope Pius’ document.
I even referred to St John of the Cross. You’d be wise to listen to what he has to say. Faith based on emotions is, in his assessment, childish. Not child-like, childish.
I even referred to St John of the Cross. You’d be wise to listen to what he has to say. Faith based on emotions is, in his assessment, childish. Not child-like, childish.
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MillTownCath
Guest
I understand how you might sense that. However, I just want to see how far “traditional catholics” go in dismissing the power or validity in the new mass.
People who like the latin will like the latin. People who like the new mass will like the new mass. I just hope people know both are equally valid.
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TrueLight
Guest
I really, really was giving you the benefit of the doubt and was hoping that’s not what you were doing.
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mattkubes
Guest
Who said anything about validity? The schismatic Orthodox have valid Sacraments. A Catholic priest turned Satanist (God forbid) could validly confect the Sacrament for a Black Mass. Note: I’m not putting these on par with the NO. Only pointing out that validity is not the issue.
Is one more fitting for the re-presentation of Sacrifice of Calvary? You bet.
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MillTownCath
Guest
Okay good good, I apologize for my confusion. I’m just relatively new to all of this.
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ProVobis
Guest
So how would an Anglophone attending Vietnamese church know that its liturgy is valid? Or how does a Philipino know that an English liturgy is valid, where it may be a Lutheran service, for example? In fact, I (and some others) once attended a Vietnamese wedding thinking it was Catholic but later found out it was a Baptist Church.
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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
It should not be.
The Church is not democratic.
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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
Yes, Mum, old experiments.
Let’s look at the magificent Credo:
youtube.com/watch?v=yDortyyp228
Or the moving Panis Angelicus:
youtube.com/watch?v=esrinHesolk
or Mozart’s Gloria:
youtube.com/watch?v=v8yKvm8Bejw
just a few. Note the magnificence of the Chant, product of (!!!) 800 years of creations, experiments that resulted in the best.
Now, new experiments:
youtube.com/watch?v=4Sc_6tl0wuk
youtube.com/watch?v=egar8MKQrUA&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=z9O_lY_oDwU&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=BFZt_9gLs3c&feature=related
They are simple, reverent and I APPLAUD them. People are doing their best to follow what the Vatican II created: mass for every nation on Earth, in every language and in every condition: poor, rich, endowed, not endowed.
I realize that the new experiments with the the Translations are simple, like olde Gregorian, very beautiful ( and I am not native English Speaker), chanted with all devotion and reverence, with the very good atitutde of putting the score and words before the faithful and putting it in Youtube so that no one will miss it.
I praise this fight. The Old Latin is done. No one is going to create any more in Latin, except for a few minorities. You do not neat to create, to fight, to search for new ways to spread what Vatican II commanded us to do. The authors are my heroes…
I love Latin Liturgy, I chant and read Gregorian.
But, first of all, I obbey the Church, who, in Vatican II, gave clear indications of God’s will.
For me, the Latin Chants are much, much more beautiful.
BUT, to follow Vatican II, I support any modern author who wants to “experiment”, “create”, “try”, new ways of praising the Lord, According to Vatican II directives.
God Bless You
P
Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
Why is it being used often the word “charity” when discussing?He asked a valid question and, instead of answering that question, you dismiss him. Is this charity?
When you discuss , you fight. There is no place of charity…
People who get offended better choose another hobby, like fishing…
The best one was when someone told me that he was being charitable so he was not saying something uncharitable that he wanted to say…It spiced my curiosity: what would he say?
The Apostles fought, remember St. Paul who had such a character with Bernard (???) and in his epistles, St. Peter who was not really a Gandhi… and Jesus who said what He had to say, before whoever…
A great priest I knew, who is in Heaven, taught me this: “I get offended by whom I want”.
Words are nor uncharitable in a Forum not we should treat each other like children. It is supposed that the other may accept whatever come from a brother catholic. Otherwise…fishing…
I do not like the word charity here for charity is for serious things: “I was thirty and you gave me drink; I was hungry…”; Love one another like I loved you; Forget your enemies…
As for me, please, avoid being charitable towards me. I prefer the truth to sweet caramel, I prefer to know what you think about me than receiving a treacherous big smile…
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mattkubes
Guest
What on earth are you rambling on about? Nowhere in the pastoral documents of Vatican II were indications given to create an banal experimental liturgy entirely in the vernacular. You might want to give them a read before trying to follow their directives…
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ProVobis
Guest
2011 English and other 2011 languages will be long dead before Latin is done. It’s not only the liturgy but Roman law and principles that guide our lives and organizations. Vernacular is an attempt to reach out to the world but this attempt seems to have found unintended consequences such as divisiveness in cultures, resentment against bishops, unstable translations, and excessive national pride as a result.
Christianized Latin has had ups and downs, to be sure. The barbarians of the sixth century tried their best to destroy it and for several hundred years it struggled. The Protestants have been trying for the last 500 years and where has that led to? Only 30,000 denominations without a true direction. Cicero and other classists and the Latin grammar live and if it takes only scholars to keep them alive, the classicists will do so longer than Shakespeare.
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TrueLight
Guest
You sound just like the guy in the Vatican II video that was posted, LOL.
R
RogerDeCourcy
Guest
Latin helps preserve what local experimenters might like to meddle with. An analogy is the Parish Priest who Puts His Mark on a parish by reordering an old church in a modern style.
Twenty years later and his changes are looking pretty tired, while the grand old altar is landfill. The church in the next parish kept its stained glass and side altars and still educates and edifies little children and converts alike, simple by what it looks like and what it contains.
It’s hard to extemporise in Latin. In the local lingo, the choirmaster can add his little touch there and the priest can add a nuance there.
Two generations later and they’re de-facto Protestants. Unless they get a traditionalist priest, who then has to walk a minefield of local temperament to restore fidelity.
Plus which: Latin adds mystery. Its usage says: something special is going on here. You’re not in the everyday any more.
It’s a very short-sighted thing to drop all that, just to make sure lay-people, who aren’t the focus anyway, can Understand Every Word.
Twenty years later and his changes are looking pretty tired, while the grand old altar is landfill. The church in the next parish kept its stained glass and side altars and still educates and edifies little children and converts alike, simple by what it looks like and what it contains.
It’s hard to extemporise in Latin. In the local lingo, the choirmaster can add his little touch there and the priest can add a nuance there.
Two generations later and they’re de-facto Protestants. Unless they get a traditionalist priest, who then has to walk a minefield of local temperament to restore fidelity.
Plus which: Latin adds mystery. Its usage says: something special is going on here. You’re not in the everyday any more.
It’s a very short-sighted thing to drop all that, just to make sure lay-people, who aren’t the focus anyway, can Understand Every Word.
J
jmj1984
Guest
‘Drink the wine, give out communion, use contraception…Latin is bad, everything before Vatican II was evil!’
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Warrenton
Guest
I am confused by this. When I said the new mass contains more scope for individual preference than ever before, you said that should not be because the Church is not a democracy.
Then, in this post, you said that individual preference is a good thing.
You also said that you like Latin. If every kind of person can have his or her own mass, do you agree that people should be free to attend old masses?
M
MillTownCath
Guest
The Church authorized Vatican II. Everything in the New Mass that was directed from VII is good, valid, and holy. Still, people may prefer the EF mass, which is fine.
Is this a point we may all agree on?
Is this a point we may all agree on?
L
liturgyluver
Guest
Can I suggest we keep this in proportion?
Latin is not dead liturgically: Latin masses are rightly held for the faithful because its part of our heritage, and this will continue to be the case. But we also have masses in the vernacular for those who prefer it (and that does seem to be the majority). And we even have the half-way house - which I think is what Vatican II intended (but as usual with any Vatican documents the hot air means they can be read either way) and the Bishops failed to endorse - where the unchanging parts of the liturgy are in Latin with readings and everyday prayers in the vernacular. Surely Latin and the vernacular can happily co-exist. They have to - they are both here to stay and we need to accept that.
Latin is not dead liturgically: Latin masses are rightly held for the faithful because its part of our heritage, and this will continue to be the case. But we also have masses in the vernacular for those who prefer it (and that does seem to be the majority). And we even have the half-way house - which I think is what Vatican II intended (but as usual with any Vatican documents the hot air means they can be read either way) and the Bishops failed to endorse - where the unchanging parts of the liturgy are in Latin with readings and everyday prayers in the vernacular. Surely Latin and the vernacular can happily co-exist. They have to - they are both here to stay and we need to accept that.
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