Why, do you think, animals suffer?

[Della]

St. Paul tells us in:

Romans 8:[18] I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
[19] For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God;
[20] for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope;
[21] because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[22] We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now;
[23] and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

As I understand it creation was meant to be temporary with the life/death cycle we still see, but that Adam and Eve were brought into it to bring about, through their obedience, a new order of creation in which there would be no decay, no life and death struggle. Since they failed, the Earth has had to keep on enduring decay until Christ comes again, as the Second Adam, to restore it to God’s glory. But no suffering happens that doesn’t have at its end the incomparable joy of union with God. Everything God made he remakes and glorifies, so even animal suffering has a purpose–one that is yet to be fulfilled in his eternal plan. We shouldn’t deliberately cause animals suffering, of course, but suffering is every person’s, every creatures lot until Christ comes again.

 

[tonyrey]

Are you sure?
What about impassibility?

Or what the catechism says:376 By the radiance of this grace all dimensions of man’s life were confirmed. As long as he remained in the divine intimacy, man would not have to suffer or die. The inner harmony of the human person, the harmony between man and woman,and finally the harmony between the first couple and all creation, comprised the state called “original justice”.

There was indeed spiritual harmony before our ancestors sinned but the physical challenges and drawbacks of life have existed since living beings appeared on this planet. Jesus told us not to fear those who kill the body but those who kill the soul…

 

[catholic1seeks]

There was indeed spiritual harmony before our ancestors sinned but the physical challenges and drawbacks of life have existed since living beings appeared on this planet. Jesus told us not to fear those who kill the body but those who kill the soul…

But what about the Catechism?

 

[tonyrey]

But what about the Catechism?

The fact that Jesus told us not to fear those who kill the body but those who kill the soul supports the view the Catechism is concerned with spiritual harmony - which is consistent with physical evolution.

 

[minkymurph]

I’m not saying evolution isn’t a possibility. Humans, too, have a nervous system. How is it that we at one time didn’t feel pain (with nervous system intact), but animals always felt pain??

I would say that before the fall, we don’t know how the world physically existed. We don’t know if humans or animals physical state was exactly the same as it is now. It may have changed as a consequence of the fall.

Before the fall, Adam and Eve were in some way in God’s presence because they were not separated from him by sin, and in some way the earth/animals were too. Therefore, I think their physical existence was different. I know it’s a hypothetical question, but I’ve often wondered if Eve had not sinned, would women still have experienced childbirth pains? Animals don’t seem to be as bothered about childbirth pains as humans.

 

[nemmark]

To address the problem of why animals have always experienced pain, we must first address their purpose in creation. They are and were supposed to satisfy man-kind in the ways of companionship, creativity, and personal care (food, clothing, etc…). They are part of God’s creative act to secure a people for himself out of their own free will. Since they are intelligent beings that fight for survival just as we do, they must feel pain, but pain in this sense is logical and good because it gives the animals an advantage in their environments. Pain is associated with “evil” because it is a sign of trouble and possibly death. Also, it makes its subject feel “unhappy” and disturbed. All of these words are associated with evil itself, but can never automatically mean that something is evil or evil is taking place when they are used. Suffering in its purest form is good, because it is a logical and sensual way to warn a creature of danger. Obviously we live in a temporal world, and we are geared towards life, therefore pain and suffering are absolutely necessary in such a place. To call something uncomfortable and/or unfair “evil” is like saying “it was evil for my parent to yell at me for swearing. They swear, and they don’t get yelled at by anyone, and it made me really sad”. Sure there’s suffering and there appears to be unfairness in this, but ultimately it is good because it prevents evil itself from taking place. It indeed seems unfair, but it is not because it corrects ignorance and prevents something unfair from taking place. For instance, if a child is never reprimanded for portraying faults, even though others do them without getting reprimanded, then the child is likely to fall into the fault over and over again. Thus, they haven’t been given secure measures, deeming that they were available through loving parents, to prevent their future misfortune. So, with animals, suffering is completely good because it prevents death and protects them from ignorance of things that could lead to death. Despite the fact that God could have created a world without suffering at all, suffering itself does not disprove the good nature of God or the existence of God. It takes faith, for our reasoning power and wisdom are too little to understand why an infinitely wise God would ever make things the way he did, to move further and trust that God, who has manifested himself and shown himself to mankind time and time again, has created a world that is all sufficient for the eternal happiness of mankind, and the continual well-being and health of his more basic creatures, who aren’t destined for eternal glory or beatific vision, for the purpose of man-kind. Hope this helps. God’s ways are great and infinite, and thus they are confusing to us, we just need faith and what little reasoning we have to find truth though

 

[Cirdan_XII]

1. God is omniscient, and therefore knew that we’d create this “evil-infested” world. And it’s not the animals’ fault: If they suffer because of original sin, then we’d have to deal with the fact that we have redemption. They didn’t sin, and can’t sin, yet they do not have a chance for Heaven…

Let’s say that the bible is rather vague about animals. But there are also lots of other questions that the Bible doesn’t answer. Can’t we just settle for, if we were supposed to know about this, God would have put it in th bible or found some other way to tell us. Let us just believe that in his Greatness, God knows what he’s doing and in the bigger picture of things it all makes good sense, but for now we’re not supposed to know the details.

 

[pollycarp]

Animal suffering is just another way satan makes us suffer. He uses them. If an animal lover sees animals suffering, he suffers also.

 

[Della]

Animal suffering is just another way satan makes us suffer. He uses them. If an animal lover sees animals suffering, he suffers also.

It’s true we suffer when we see an animal we love suffer, but I wouldn’t be too quick to ascribe such suffering to the devil. There are plenty of natural causes for animal suffering without anything supernatural at work.

As for what the Bible has to say about it, while it doesn’t address this issue directly, the ancients understanding was that it was a part of the life and death cycle meant to show us the power of God.

For instance, natural forces and their consequences were often referred to as the hand of God moving or the earth reacting to God’s glory.

King David said of animal life (indeed all life):

Ps. 104:27 These all look to thee,
to give them their food in due season.

This includes the killing of some animals by others (humans eating meat), not just the herbivores.

And St. Paul tells us:

Rm. 8:19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God;
20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; 23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Suffering is a natural part of our universe at the present time. People suffer, animals suffer, we all do until the resurrection at the end of time.

 

[tonyrey]

To address the problem of why animals have always experienced pain, we must first address their purpose in creation. They are and were supposed to satisfy man-kind in the ways of companionship, creativity, and personal care (food, clothing, etc…). They are part of God’s creative act to secure a people for himself out of their own free will. Since they are intelligent beings that fight for survival just as we do, they must feel pain, but pain in this sense is logical and good because it gives the animals an advantage in their environments. Pain is associated with “evil” because it is a sign of trouble and possibly death. Also, it makes its subject feel “unhappy” and disturbed. All of these words are associated with evil itself, but can never automatically mean that something is evil or evil is taking place when they are used. Suffering in its purest form is good, because it is a logical and sensual way to warn a creature of danger. Obviously we live in a temporal world, and we are geared towards life, therefore pain and suffering are absolutely necessary in such a place. To call something uncomfortable and/or unfair “evil” is like saying “it was evil for my parent to yell at me for swearing. They swear, and they don’t get yelled at by anyone, and it made me really sad”. Sure there’s suffering and there appears to be unfairness in this, but ultimately it is good because it prevents evil itself from taking place. It indeed seems unfair, but it is not because it corrects ignorance and prevents something unfair from taking place. For instance, if a child is never reprimanded for portraying faults, even though others do them without getting reprimanded, then the child is likely to fall into the fault over and over again. Thus, they haven’t been given secure measures, deeming that they were available through loving parents, to prevent their future misfortune. So, with animals, suffering is completely good because it prevents death and protects them from ignorance of things that could lead to death. Despite the fact that God could have created a world without suffering at all, suffering itself does not disprove the good nature of God or the existence of God. It takes faith, for our reasoning power and wisdom are too little to understand why an infinitely wise God would ever make things the way he did, to move further and trust that God, who has manifested himself and shown himself to mankind time and time again, has created a world that is all sufficient for the eternal happiness of mankind, and the continual well-being and health of his more basic creatures, who aren’t destined for eternal glory or beatific vision, for the purpose of man-kind. Hope this helps. God’s ways are great and infinite, and thus they are confusing to us, we just need faith and what little reasoning we have to find truth though

Welcome to the forum!

An excellent first post.

 

[tonyrey]

Are you sure?
What about impassibility?

Or what the catechism says:376 By the radiance of this grace all dimensions of man’s life were confirmed. As long as he remained in the divine intimacy, man would not have to suffer or die. The inner harmony of the human person, the harmony between man and woman,and finally the harmony between the first couple and all creation, comprised the state called “original justice”.

Jesus told us not to fear those who kill the body but those who kill the soul. The result of sin is **spiritual **death. Physical death is the **natural **end of life on earth.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

The philosopher Michael Murray wrote a book on this topic that’s out in paperback now, “Nature Red in Tooth and Claw: Theism and the Problem of Animal Suffering”

He examines different arguments for it, but also advances the idea (based on animal physiology) that there are three levels of response to pain by an organism, dictated by the complexity of the brain physiology of the organism. A simple life-form such as an amoeba, or a lizard, experience pain as a response to a stimuli, as their brains lack the structure to experience pain as an emotion. Higher life forms, such as a dog or a deer, feel pain (obviously), but can’t feel “suffering,” that is, second order pain awareness, as they lack the features of the brain that a time-binding creature does. They don’t remember, or anticipate it, in the same way humans (and perhaps the higher primates) do. That’s as best I remember Murray’s argument (it’s been a while since I read it). Don’t know if I agree with it, but if so, it would be a mercy of sorts in the way they were created.

Here’s an earlier paper by Murray and Glenn Ross that sets out this argument:

edisk.fandm.edu/michael.murray/Animal.pdf

One can also argue, I think successfully, that pain in and of itself can be a survival mechanism that can benefit’s the organism’s survival. Lepers, who have lost nerve function and the ability to perceive pain, suffer enormous trauma from burns, etc. because they can’t feel when their bodies are being damaged.

 

[Nea]

I would say that before the fall, we don’t know how the world physically existed. We don’t know if humans or animals physical state was exactly the same as it is now. It may have changed as a consequence of the fall.

Before the fall, Adam and Eve were in some way in God’s presence because they were not separated from him by sin, and in some way the earth/animals were too. Therefore, I think their physical existence was different. ** I know it’s a hypothetical question, but I’ve often wondered if Eve had not sinned, would women still have experienced childbirth pains?** Animals don’t seem to be as bothered about childbirth pains as humans.

Maybe it’s a little off-topic, but it reminded me of the (supernatural) birth of Jesus.
Catechism says: As light passes through glass without harming the glass, so too Jesus left the womb of Mary in a miraculous manner without any opening of the womb and without any physical violation of her virginity. The Catechism also confirms that Mary gave birth without labor pains, as labor pains were the effect of the Fall, and the sinless Virgin would not suffer any effects of original sin.

I suppose before the Fall all women gave birth like Mary, so their physical existence must have been different… (also the physical existence of animals)

 

[Della]

Maybe it’s a little off-topic, but it reminded me of the (supernatural) birth of Jesus.
Catechism says: As light passes through glass without harming the glass, so too Jesus left the womb of Mary in a miraculous manner without any opening of the womb and without any physical violation of her virginity. The Catechism also confirms that Mary gave birth without labor pains, as labor pains were the effect of the Fall, and the sinless Virgin would not suffer any effects of original sin.

I suppose before the Fall all women gave birth like Mary, so their physical existence must have been different… (also the physical existence of animals)

About your speculation about women giving birth before the Fall. No women gave birth before the Fall. Genesis is clear that Eve didn’t conceive until after and she was the “mother of all the living”, of all human beings. Adam and Eve existed and were our ancestors. Any other creature that closely resembled man was not human. Animals suffered before Adam and Eve because they were and are a part of the natural order of things. Humans, Adam and Eve, were both a part of nature, but created in God’s image and so not subject to the ravages of death and all that goes with it until the Fall.

 

[Nea]

Ok, I correct… “before Fall we were meant to give birth like Mary”?

Were animals meant to suffer?

What about prophecies concerning animals… like “then the wolf shall live with the sheep, and the leopard lie down with the kid; the calf and the young lion shall grow up together” (Isaiah 11: 6) wasn’t it meant to be like this?

 

[Della]

Ok, I correct… “before Fall we were meant to give birth like Mary”?

Yes. Sorry if I was pedantic. I didn’t know if you understood the difference.

Were animals meant to suffer?

What about prophecies concerning animals… like “then the wolf shall live with the sheep, and the leopard lie down with the kid; the calf and the young lion shall grow up together” (Isaiah 11: 6) wasn’t it meant to be like this?

Theologians have speculated that animal suffering would have ended had man not fallen into sin. How and when that would have happened no one can say since we cannot know what might have happened, only what did happen.

There will come a time when there will no longer be any suffering, as St. Paul tells us:

Rom.8[19] For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God;
[20] for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope;
[21] because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[22] We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now;
[23] and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

 

[tonyrey]

Animal suffering is just another way satan makes us suffer. He uses them. If an animal lover sees animals suffering, he suffers also.

I don’t believe God would permit Satan to inflict suffering on animals which are not morally responsible for suffering.

 

[tonyrey]

Because they are the unfortunate occupants of the evil-infested world we’ve created by committing original sin and allowing evil into the world.

I think before the fall of man, animals didn’t suffer.

Animals were subject to natural causes before human beings chose to be evil. Pain is a defence mechanism and death is part of the biocycle.

 

[nemmark]

Indeed animal suffering does make human beings suffer (we have great sympathy and it creates great confusion and doubt), and without a doubt, Satan is not the author of this suffering, but rather attacks our human weakness by stressing such suffering in the world. It is because we do not understand suffering that we cannot come to terms with it. SImply put, animals (who have not and cannot obtain a level of highest goodness or closeness to God) suffer because it is truly an efficient defense mechanism that allows them to live in a temporal world. They are base creatures that were created to live among man and provide him with companionship while giving constant glory to God our Father. Our lack of moral understanding and human intelligence puts doubt in our mind when we try to contemplate a God who would allow suffering to exist, or even more surprisingly, evil to exist (note that these two things are NOT at all the same, but are usually related in many circumstances). We also lack virtue (virtue being a human choice of greater goodness that ultimately brings us to a higher knowledge and relationship with God, and results in the filling of this void between man and God). It appears that the truth of the matter is that God allows suffering and evil so that we may, being morally free creatures (thus we have free will unlike animals), choose to grow in goodness through key virtues that would not possibly exist without things such as suffering and evil. Animals on the other hand do not exprience the full glory of God, and are always fixed at a certain level of “goodness”. They must obey God, and can’t turn from him, so they can not become evil or attain a level of higher goodness (incorrutpibility) simply because they lack moral freedom. Suffering is simply a result of our imperfect nature as well as thiers. We lack a certain level of “goodness” or I should rather say closeness to God, who in his perfect nature is incorruptible, and therefore we suffer and die just like our animal brothers and sisters, but unlike them, we can profit by it and obtain eternal life and glory by uniting our suffering with that of Jesus Christ in his passion. It appears that God in his omniscient wisdom created a world where suffering would exist so that man-kind would profit from it after his fall. Here’s an awesome link (an easy, down to Earth read) that further explains and deals with the ideas of suffering and evil:

str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5124

 

[pollycarp]

I could never use St. Augustine to explain animal suffering to animal loving friends. That the devil causes it, or attacks me by stressing it, works for me. And he has used it on me too many times. (Starving cats showing up on the back porch, 3 legs, incurable mouth disease, starving, hardly able to walk, abandoned. He has dried up my tear ducts, not just over their suffering, but peoples’ cruelty.) Once a long time ago I read on a Church-hating, animal loving website that a saint in the Church said these things we see do not really exist. Well the Church haters had a field day with that. I’ve never been able to find that quote again. I always think of “phantasms” in St. Thomas Aquinas, could he have been the saint?. Anyway, now if I see such things I tell myself they don’t really exist/are from the devil. It just works for me. Thanks tho.