Why do you think forced healthcare is immoral?

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…err, right - which is where Jesus’ comments about supererogatory acts come in?
This would make sense if we were talking about charity, but this bill is not going to help people.
How come free will comes in when it’s charity but not when people want to exercise bodily autonomy?
it depends on what the issue is. Catholics believe it is wrong to sin, and sin should not be socially acceptable. Some sins *also *should be illegal, because of their destructiveness. Additionally, sin should never have the *sanction *of law. However, the Catholic Church does not believe that every single sin should be made illegal.
 
This would make sense if we were talking about charity, but this bill is not going to help people.
Once it’s wholly implemented I will be able to purchase insurance, that sounds like it helps me. There are several million in my shoes, it will help all of them too most likely.
 
Once it’s wholly implemented I will be able to purchase insurance, that sounds like it helps me. There are several million in my shoes, it will help all of them too most likely.
Except that you probably won’t be able to afford it.
 
I posted this in another forum and thought it would apply here as well:

Here’s a question that should put all of your claims to rest, if you are Christian than you should fully understand this, if God doesn’t impede on our free will than why is it ok for the government to do so? Also, why is it necessary for the government to remove the grace from charity? Our lack of faith is blaring us in the face if we have this faith in God but not faith in our fellow man. It was through that faith in God that we understood that our fellow man would care for us through charity in our time of need.

I see an increase in taxes which will just make it harder to support the Church and with this “separation of church and state” (which is only the premise that the federal government will not have a federal sponsored church, look it up) they certainly aren’t going to support the Church for us. To fight progressivism you have to think like a progressive. Do you think that a hundred years ago the average American would have thought that we’d be killing our babies and ushering in gay marriage?

The reason for our government is a protection of freedoms not granter of rights. Everyone has a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We’ve been screwing up the life part for the past 40 some years, liberty is being slowly stripped away daily as is the pursuit of happiness. Last I checked the Bible outlines happiness pretty well and it has nothing to do with a big screen TV or a shiny Hummer in the front driveway. This idea of America being founded on secular principles is what has been it’s undoing since the early 20th century.

Sorry my thoughts are a bit of a mess today but this stuff gets me a bit heated.
 
I heard a progressive radio host stating the same argument, yet he changed his opinion when he heard that the requirement is being framed and implemented as a tax. Everyone is taxed, but if you buy a healthcare policy, the tax is waived. For the moment, setting aside whether I like the policy or not, that seems like it might be reasonable.

Is prison possible if you don’t comply? Yes it is. Just like it’s a possibility if you do not pay your federal income tax.

I also heard (and I do not know if this is completely correct), that any state can opt out of this entire mandated healthcare reform act… but if they do, they will lose lots of $$$ for Medicare programs. So, technically, states COULD opt out if they so chose.
And if you resist you may wind up like several other Americans shot in the name of tax collection.
 
Unconstitutional and immoral are two different concepts.

So Jesus told Jews who were obliged by law to carry a Roman soldiers armour for one mile not to do so?
No, he told them to carry it for an extra mile, as such supererogatory acts count as charity.
The first mile was obligatory and doesn’t count as charity. The extra mile was charity because it was an individual’s choice. So if you are taxed to provide healthcare to the poor, it is not charity, and doesn’t count as good works. God still expects you to “go the extra mile.”
 
Is it ‘forced healthcare’? I don’t think so.

Is it a right to health care? I think that it is a right to accessible health care.

Do you see the difference? Some folks in the U.S. can’t buy health care even if they have jobs, even if they are willing to pay for health insurance, because of pre-exisiting conditions. They can’t just forgo insurance and buy the health care they need to live, because it is priced out of their reach.

Some will respond with the “ER” being accessible to people in this situation. Well, the ER doesn’t treat chronic conditions. Is the ER going to serve for a diabetic’s 4-per-year doctor visits? Check the patient’s glucose monitoring history? Adjust their insulin requirements accordingly? Is an ER going to monitor someone’s cholesterol levels and statin regimen?

I don’t believe that I should pay for everyone’s health care. I do believe that I should help pay for everyone in the U.S. to have access to health care, via taxes. Then we could join all of the other countries in the civilized Western world in doing so. We in the U.S. seem to be the only country left that permits ridiculous injustices like I’ve described above. And hopefully we are going to fix that. 🙂
While some claim the annecdotal incidents of people being denied coverage for pre existing conditions, this does not apply to people who get jobs with companies that offer bennefits. It also does not apply to the many millions who simply are not pulling their own weight.

Besides if everyone pulled their own weight, costs for those that paid would plummet and more people could afford health care.
 
I have indeed asked her. She is encouraged and excited about it. She gets frustrated having to waste so much time and resources making the insurance companies happy (billing paperwork etc.) instead of treating patients. She gets tired of having to justify her medical decisions to the insurance companies.
If I sold fences, I would also love it if the government forced everyone to buy my product and subsidized it and prevented them from questioning my prices and what excesses I wanted to sell them.
 
A few of these threads have been popping up since the passage of the healthcare bill, and I notice quite a few of you are upset over the mandate section of the bill.

I am curious if you think that it’s also immoral for the government to tax you in any way (re: being forced to purchase something), and if it’s immoral for the government to make you follow any other laws (re: forced charity).

If you think one is okay but not the other, why?
It’s not just that they are forcing you to buy something it is that they are forcing some to buy it but not others and are usinging the purchase of the product to transfer money to the constituents of those who supported the bill. (essentially it is a bribe to the supporters of some members of congress). Also The government has set it up where the administration can at a whim add additional stuff to the list of items you are now being forced to buy. You have to pay for them whether you need it or not, whether you can afford it or not, and whether it is the better deal or not. this is institutionalized corruption.
 
To believe that we could insure 30 million uninsured people without the cost of insurance skyrocketing is pure stupidity on our part.

To believe that there won’t be rationing of a free service that there is never, and will never be enough of is also pure stupidity on our part.

To continue to tell us these lies is totally immoral of the progressives.

To continue to insist on coerced charity is forcing us to participate in stealing, lying, and in the case of taxpayer funded abortions and euthanasia, murder.
 
I have a totally different take on the issue; the real question underlying this one is: Do you think we, as a society are morally obliged to care for the sick?

If the answer is yes, then the question morality of being forced to purchase health care is moot. If the answer is no, why or why not?

With every right comes a responsibility and if I think (as our laws seem to) that a sick person has a right to be treated, then they also have a responsibility to contribute towards that care by purchasing insurance.

I see no loss of liberty here whatsoever. People act like they are going to be paying for someone else’s health care without any consideration for the fact that they are also going to get sick someday and need care.

How moral would it be for the government to allow people to opt out of health care, as in not requiring them to purchase insurance BUT instead requiring them to wear a tag that says: If I get sick, don’t care for me?
 
Ella, I’m a conservative and against Obama’s health care. What is your reaction when you hear the following:
  1. Bribes to get the health care vote e.g. $100 million for a Conn. hospital, millions to LA., Corn Huskers pact, Florida Deal.
I’m from Connecticut and I’m pissed off about the hospital money. We don’t need a bigger hospital University hospital in Farmington. Since the current one is losing money, we should probably use the money for its operating budget if anything.
  1. Passing a bill without reading it.
Nonsense. Its been debated thoroughly.
  1. Going into a trillion dollar debt which will have to be paid by our grandchildren and their children and keeping in mind we are already in trillion dollar debt and possibly losing our rating.
But we’d also be passing on to them the security and protection of access to healthcare. Throughout the modern western world, only in the United States can you go bankrupt over medical bills. This is a good argument against war, because war only leave pain and suffering, but the mere cost shouldn’t derail a program that could end suffering.
  1. Have you asked your physician his opinion on how this will effect medicine in this country?
Yes, I asked a friend in the nursing field, and she is afraid it will over work doctors and nurses and cause them to retire early. Such is there prerogative in free society. She’s afraid it will hurt care for everyone and do little to improve the situation for those who are currently uninsured. Keyword is afraid.

There may be growing pains, but it is unacceptable to do nothing improve access for 30-50 million of the most voiceless and defenseless of the nation. A friend of mine ended up on streets once and almost died of a simple leg infection. She was living in the richest city in the world at the time.
  1. Knowing that state health care has failed in Mass. and in Hawaii.
Growing pains. Things don’t change over night. Look how long it took to implement workplace safety standards - at least a century. We need to start now to improve life for future generations.
  1. Knowing that citizens of other countries with socialized medicine come to the US for care. If it is so good, why come here?
And seniors who can’t afford prescriptions here go to Canada for lower prices. It works both ways. If anything, we should be limiting care to foreigners to improve access and availability to Americans.
  1. Knowing that the bill also includes taxes on such things as tanning palors, and allows the feds to take over student loans. I understand there is also a push for college kids to have access to the food stamp program. Do you wonder what else is included in this bill?
Tanning booths possibly contribute to skin cancer, raising health care by absorbing capacity away from treatable diseases. If anything, we should also tax tobacco to high heavens to help pay insurance.
  1. Being forced to buy a product by the government.
Your point. Government supposed to protect its citizens. Health insurance offers protection from physical and financial ruin if you get sick or injured. I cracked a vertebrae in my neck by fainting - the first time I ever fainted. Fortunately it is healing properly, but even the most careful can get injured through no fault of their own.
  1. Why did it not include tort reform?
It is a myth that lawsuits are the primary reason for high health care costs. The American medical ***. admitted that malpractice insurance is less then 1% of all business expenses born by doctors. If I doctor ruins your life by making a mistake, why shouldn’t you be compensated?
  1. Why are we prohibited from buying insurance from any agency? Why not remove the barriers prohibiting sale of insurance across state lines?
This is certainly something to consider in the future. I don’t think that it should derail current efforts though
 
The only thing I think is “immoral” (using the term very loosely here) about caring for the sick is forcing ppl to buy private insurance without a more competitive public option.
 
Those that cannot afford it, can apply to medicaid, the restrictions on it are lifted in the bill.
Don’t you care that the cost will sky rocket for those who are actually paying and many will loose their jobs and will have their rates go to unaffordable levels?
 
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