Why do you think forced healthcare is immoral?

[doanli]

Only in America do people hate free health care. Only in America.

Forcing healthcare is not immoral. Jesus isn’t looking at my government or yours and saying “Giving everyone free health care? MORTAL SIN!!”

Why would anyone want people to pay a bill for medical treatment? My grandmother recently had eye surgery and didn’t pay a dime and no, she did not have to wait three lifetimes for it.

When I see the doctor, I just pay for the prescriptions and that’s it.

Um, maybe because we believe doctors, nurses, and other healthcare workers should be paid for their work?

If you don’t pay for it, someone else does.

 

[mpb74]

But what about the parents who refuse to educate or who are uneducated themselves? Their kids are just bum out of luck?

Many are no better off for having attended the American public school system. The public schools in my home state of New York exist to provide good jobs and benefits to a loyal democratic voting, lobbying, contributing block. The laws in NY protect teacher pay and benefits in financial crisis. They neglect the educational needs of the children.
While I respect a sizable minority of teachers and a smaller minority of admistrators who work hard to educate our children, most of them are “educators” for two reasons, July and August. Our local Catholic schools provide a far superior education for less than half the costs of our local publik sckools. Yet people support the status quo of the public school system. Why?

I do support public education, but it is often used to indoctrinate impressionable children into an ideology their parents, and many Catholics find reprehensible.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Many are no better off for having attended the American public school system. The public schools in my home state of New York exist to provide good jobs and benefits to a loyal democratic voting, lobbying, contributing block. The laws in NY protect teacher pay and benefits in financial crisis. They neglect the educational needs of the children.
While I respect a sizable minority of teachers and a smaller minority of admistrators who work hard to educate our children, most of them are “educators” for two reasons, July and August. Our local Catholic schools provide a far superior education for less than half the costs of our local publik sckools. Yet people support the status quo of the public school system. Why?

I do support public education, but it is often used to indoctrinate impressionable children into an ideology their parents, and many Catholics find reprehensible.

No matter the quality of the education. No diploma no job!

 

[mpb74]

Human rights are given by God. No government can grant a human right. Governments can recognize our God given human rights, but that is rare. Governments are of man, not of God. Give God what is God’s, and recognize what He has given us all.

The fundamental function of a Government is to provide security to the population. levying taxes, in an equitable way to raise a military, a civilian Police force, and services such as Fire Departments, Emergency management services, Child protective services, a truly just justice system and a limited number of other services is just, and fair. These are to provide for the protection of our human rights.

 

[royal_archer]

My friend, The law clearly states that you are not taxed for failing to buy healthcare. It is spelled out as a FINE. A fine is not a tax. Different words mean different things. A fine is a penalty for disobeying a law, or a US gov favorite, regulation.
You can be forced by this law, when in full effect, to be penalized for failing to buy a product from a private company. Do you believe that is just, or dare I ask, constitutional?

I always liked this explanation. A fine is a tax on doing wrong. A tax in a fine for doing good.

 

[mpb74]

No matter the quality of the education. No diploma no job!

No job, or no job you want, like, or think you deserve. ( I mean the word you in general, not the poster individually)

Many people come here to the US with nothing, not even a nodding acquaintance with the english language and get jobs. They often are functionally illiterate in their native languages. Their education is often at grade school levels. But they work here. They have something many of our American brothers and sisters lack. A willingness to work their rear ends off. If someone truly lives someplace in the US, where there are zero jobs available, they can move to a place where there are some.

There was a time when I could not find a job with the “dignity” I believed I deserved. I was fortunate to have a pension so I was not desperate for money. But my children were young, and I wanted them to see me go to work regularly. I took a job that was “beneath me”. It was a great experience for me. I worked with so many great people. I was hit hard by how far I had come in my life in terms of economic security. I forgot what hard boring long hour work days were like. It was renewing for me. It reminded me of something I had forgotten. There is dignity in all work, as long as it is not immoral work.( I am mocking my own arrogance when I use the terms “dignity” and “beneath me” above.)

No job to many Americans means handouts from their neighbors, via government, in the form of welfare, unemployment, food stamps, medicaid, and myriad other social programs. While necessary in rare occasions, that are abused into a dysfunctional state.
I know many a skilled construction worker, personal friends, collecting unemployment and making more in take home pay by doing “side jobs” than if they took the real jobs offered to them. Now they take their neighbors money, work without paying taxes, and sleep soundly at night.This is leading them to follow their lesser angels and act unjustly and break the social contract. But this is the new america of our day, brought to you by your government, who will shortly be directing your healthcare.

I believe Ben Franklin said something to the effect of " The best way to help the poor is to make them uncomfortable in their poverty." I see the sense in that.

 

[royal_archer]

I know many a skilled construction worker, personal friends, collecting unemployment and making more in take home pay by doing “side jobs” than if they took the real jobs offered to them. Now they take their neighbors money, work without paying taxes, and sleep soundly at night.This is leading them to follow their lesser angels and act unjustly and break the social contract. But this is the new america of our day, brought to you by your government, who will shortly be directing your healthcare.

I believe Ben Franklin said something to the effect of " The best way to help the poor is to make them uncomfortable in their poverty." I see the sense in that.

A friends husband was laid off and had a hard time finding a job and had an offer for much less than they were making on unemployment. He took the job thinking his unemployment bennefits were running out. Then Obama rewards all those who did not take such jobs with an unemployment extension. It is sickening how those who make the effort are punnished and those who do not make the effort are rewarded.

 

[mpb74]

I always liked this explanation. A fine is a tax on doing wrong. A tax in a fine for doing good.

A fine is a penalty, words mean things. It’s not a tax. If you’re a person who trust the veracity of Pesident Obama, take his word for it. He has said several times in the past that it is not a tax, it is a fine. The law says “fine”. I’ve heard variations of you’re statement before, by others. Those past statements reminded me of a statement I heard Father John Corapi make on EWTN, “Some people are educated into imbecility.” I’ve always believed that meant some people had become so competent at rationalizing and reasoning, and manipulating language, that they fail to use common sense in the desire to make their point. Several years ago I even grabed my dictionary to check what the meaning of is is.
I am not that well educated but I have and use a dictionary. That is where I verify what a word means. A word means what it means. To intentionally tell people a word means something other than what it means is to lie. It is to promote ignorance. It is sinful, you can check Catholic teaching on that. I can’t speak to your intent, but as you seem to be intelligent I am presuming you know what you are doing. Do you?

Surely you think the people ( The government) who will soon run your healthcare are intelligent and morally sound enough to do so, then rationally, would you not believe them to be smart enough and morally sound enough to write a law using words to clearly and honestly reflect their intent.

And according to your statement, refusal to spend my money on health insurance is wrong. Who gives you the right or authority to say refusal to buy something for myself, with my money is wrong? I would love to see the verbal jujitsu and gymnastics of reason you can possibly offer to justify such a statement. Or you could just be honest and tell me you think you are smarter than me, so you get to say what I should spend my hard earned money on, if that is what you believe. I don’t know you personally, and I don’t know what you have in your heart, only you and God know that, but I hope I am wrong about your thinking. Good night, I need my beauty rest. ( Which doesn’t work as well as it did in my youth)

 

[mpb74]

A friends husband was laid off and had a hard time finding a job and had an offer for much less than they were making on unemployment. He took the job thinking his unemployment bennefits were running out. Then Obama rewards all those who did not take such jobs with an unemployment extension. It is sickening how those who make the effort are punnished and those who do not make the effort are rewarded.

I would hope your friend took the job because it was the right thing to do, not because unemployment was running out. He was not punished, he did the right thing, and in my understanding of God’s infinite justice he will be rewarded for his actions by the Big Guy.

 

[royal_archer]

I would hope your friend took the job because it was the right thing to do, not because unemployment was running out. He was not punished, he did the right thing, and in my understanding of God’s infinite justice he will be rewarded for his actions by the Big Guy.

The punnishment is that he is now being forced to pay taxes to fund the free loaders who did not take the available jobs.

 

[royal_archer]

A fine is a penalty, words mean things. It’s not a tax. If you’re a person who trust the veracity of Pesident Obama, take his word for it. He has said several times in the past that it is not a tax, it is a fine. The law says “fine”. I’ve heard variations of you’re statement before, by others. Those past statements reminded me of a statement I heard Father John Corapi make on EWTN, “Some people are educated into imbecility.” I’ve always believed that meant some people had become so competent at rationalizing and reasoning, and manipulating language, that they fail to use common sense in the desire to make their point. Several years ago I even grabed my dictionary to check what the meaning of is is.
I am not that well educated but I have and use a dictionary. That is where I verify what a word means. A word means what it means. To intentionally tell people a word means something other than what it means is to lie. It is to promote ignorance. It is sinful, you can check Catholic teaching on that. I can’t speak to your intent, but as you seem to be intelligent I am presuming you know what you are doing. Do you?

Surely you think the people ( The government) who will soon run your healthcare are intelligent and morally sound enough to do so, then rationally, would you not believe them to be smart enough and morally sound enough to write a law using words to clearly and honestly reflect their intent.

And according to your statement, refusal to spend my money on health insurance is wrong. Who gives you the right or authority to say refusal to buy something for myself, with my money is wrong? I would love to see the verbal jujitsu and gymnastics of reason you can possibly offer to justify such a statement. Or you could just be honest and tell me you think you are smarter than me, so you get to say what I should spend my hard earned money on, if that is what you believe. I don’t know you personally, and I don’t know what you have in your heart, only you and God know that, but I hope I am wrong about your thinking. Good night, I need my beauty rest. ( Which doesn’t work as well as it did in my youth)

The intent is to highlight the play on words. while intent and rationale may be different the practical application is that those who do the right thing are forced to pay and those who break the law in certain ways are forced to provide funding to the government. And that is all that can be read into it, just a bit of humor.

Obama is insisting it is a fine so he can make a claim he didn’t raise taxes.

It is wrong to tax or fine people for not getting health care insurance or not getting the government approved health care insurance. It appears that if you have health insurance that does not meet the governments mandates you will still be fined even if you have coverage in excess of several of the mandates but do not have every last mandated coverage. I suspect you are responding to more than my post.

 

[aspawloski4th]

No job, or no job you want, like, or think you deserve. ( I mean the word you in general, not the poster individually)

Many people come here to the US with nothing, not even a nodding acquaintance with the english language and get jobs. They often are functionally illiterate in their native languages. Their education is often at grade school levels. But they work here. They have something many of our American brothers and sisters lack. A willingness to work their rear ends off. If someone truly lives someplace in the US, where there are zero jobs available, they can move to a place where there are some.

There was a time when I could not find a job with the “dignity” I believed I deserved. I was fortunate to have a pension so I was not desperate for money. But my children were young, and I wanted them to see me go to work regularly. I took a job that was “beneath me”. It was a great experience for me. I worked with so many great people. I was hit hard by how far I had come in my life in terms of economic security. I forgot what hard boring long hour work days were like. It was renewing for me. It reminded me of something I had forgotten. There is dignity in all work, as long as it is not immoral work.( I am mocking my own arrogance when I use the terms “dignity” and “beneath me” above.)

No job to many Americans means handouts from their neighbors, via government, in the form of welfare, unemployment, food stamps, medicaid, and myriad other social programs. While necessary in rare occasions, that are abused into a dysfunctional state.
I know many a skilled construction worker, personal friends, collecting unemployment and making more in take home pay by doing “side jobs” than if they took the real jobs offered to them. Now they take their neighbors money, work without paying taxes, and sleep soundly at night.This is leading them to follow their lesser angels and act unjustly and break the social contract. But this is the new america of our day, brought to you by your government, who will shortly be directing your healthcare.

I believe Ben Franklin said something to the effect of " The best way to help the poor is to make them uncomfortable in their poverty." I see the sense in that.

I happen to be very well know to those who know me on a personal basis as a big critic of public schools. But for many because of the attitude of their family twards education or lack of income thats their only chance at an education. Some education is better than none. Don’t talk to me about dignity in certain jobs! This may sound immoral to you, but because I have to take care of a dissabled wife(physically and emotionally) I have make sure whatever job I take meets the needs of us. She takes 20 meds, 15 of which she takes everyday. I am now unemployed likely because of discrimination, which is unrpovable, but because unsavory bosses. for 10 years I worked 65 to 70 hours a week between two jobs. Things fell apart to an extent on the home front because I was a stranger in my home. A larger paycheck would of solved alot of problems. Less hours likely would of ment better health for me right now. Try walking in my shoes for a few hours, I promise Ill take the radical orthodics for my bad feet out of them beforee you do>

 

[sharmin]

If someone quits their job because they can now get healthcare for free is it fair to the people who keep working?

If the only thing they are working for is health care, why not? Obviously they;re getting their income from another source such as a spouse who is employed. I see this a lot…a lot of women who would LOVE to be able to stay home with their children but can’t because they are working for health care. I would love to be able to see them quit.

 

[sharmin]

In that exchange the person providing the money is getting a service in return. With few exceptions the police offer a service for a fraction of the cost if contracted individually. The police also have to work from a position of authority. if there is a dispute between me and an intruder, I need police who can be an impartial advocate for the laws of the land. This is not the case with medicine which is a private exchange between individuals.

Not if I never have a fire or an emergency. If you will next say that I have the security and peace of mind knowing that is available to me, one could argue the same for people who have the peace of mind know that if they lose their health care or jobs , they could still have health care.

 

[sharmin]

The fault in you premise is that those other taxes and credits are proper. If my neighbor hang dries their clothes and I get a fancy new dryer every couple of years why should I be getting money that my neighbor paid into taxes?

I’m sorry…I don’t understand what you are saying here.

 

[sharmin]

If parrents neglect their kids, they need to be punished for it, not rewarded with higher levels of welfare (for having more kids than they can afford). If Parrents are not capable of taking care of their kids, their are plenty of would be parrents who are willing and capable.

What if parents aren’t educating their children because they are are uneducated themselves? THey should have their children forcefully be removed and punished?

 

[sharmin]

My friend, The law clearly states that you are not taxed for failing to buy healthcare. It is spelled out as a FINE. A fine is not a tax. Different words mean different things. A fine is a penalty for disobeying a law, or a US gov favorite, regulation.

Well, if that is the case then I believe it should be rewritten as a TAX rather than a fine. That’s how I understood it to be anyway.

 

[sharmin]

Um, maybe because we believe doctors, nurses, and other healthcare workers should be paid for their work?

If you don’t pay for it, someone else does.

COuld you quote the part of the healthcare plan that says doctors, nurses and other health care workers won’t be paid? I hadn’t heard that.

 

[royal_archer]

If the only thing they are working for is health care, why not? Obviously they;re getting their income from another source such as a spouse who is employed. I see this a lot…a lot of women who would LOVE to be able to stay home with their children but can’t because they are working for health care. I would love to be able to see them quit.

Why would you want to see more women on welfare? Or do you just want to see others like me paying for their expenses. If those women want to stay home and live off their husbands they should have picked husbands who can take care of them. If they want me to fill the role their husbands should be filling then I should at least be getting me a beer for the game like my wife will. (as long as I ask realy politely)

 

[royal_archer]

Not if I never have a fire or an emergency. If you will next say that I have the security and peace of mind knowing that is available to me, one could argue the same for people who have the peace of mind know that if they lose their health care or jobs , they could still have health care.

That would be a false analogy. when you do not pay for taxes for local services, they seize your property and you will loose access to those services.