Why do you think forced healthcare is immoral?

[royal_archer]

My family disowned me already, far too late for that.

My job cannot be outsourced. I picked it for a reason.

Why do you feel my neighbor has more of a “legal” obligation to care for you than your family does?

Even if you think your job can not be outsourced, does not mean that the company as a whole can not be moved or that another company will be able to take the business away.

Earlier you implied that you thought your performance compared to that of your coworkers would protect you. Don’t you care that they may get laid off? How can you advocate we care for you if you do not care about them?

 

[pathia]

Why do you feel my neighbor has more of a “legal” obligation to care for you than your family does?

Even if you think your job can not be outsourced, does not mean that the company as a whole can not be moved or that another company will be able to take the business away.

Earlier you implied that you thought your performance compared to that of your coworkers would protect you. Don’t you care that they may get laid off? How can you advocate we care for you if you do not care about them?

Uh…what are you talking about? You do realize, the entire point of insurance is, your neighbor (assuming they have the same insurance provider as you) is paying for your healthcare (indirectly) when you have a huge disaster of a medical issue, right?

You are also continuing to put words in my mouth, please stop.

 

[grndslm]

I feel like the people who are against universal health insurance just have no comprehension of how insurance works.

The other option is to do something of value to the community that equates to the resources required to fill your needs. We all have needs that go unmet because they exceed the resources we are able to generate. That is just a part of the hand we were dealt as a result of the fall of man.

We all have healthcare needs that go unmet, in actuality, because the health insurance corporations instantly remove 30% of the money we give them.

Health insurance is a big black box. We put in 100% and get 70% out.

If we just stopped cherry-picking who gets it, and decide to put 100% of our monies toward health care, instead of insurance corporations… we would easily be able to support 100% of our Citizens, some of which are already passing on the costs of emergency care, as it is, to the insurance companies, who then pass it on only to those that have a group plan with their business.

As it is, we take tax money from all Citizens. Why not implement federal sales tax, so that all Citizens pay for their health insurance?? It is impossible to escape sales tax.

But, the entire reason that we are living beyond our means is because we gave up our right to life when we decided that corporations, with the sole purpose of turning a profit, will always have our best interest in mind.

If U.S. Citizens had a U.S. group plan, since all Citizens are agents of the U.S. Federal Government… we’d all put in, and 100% of the funds would come out, since we’ll always need health care (plus, if possible, we might even be able to draw interest on any unused funds).

None of this is rocket science. For every dollar that you give your insurance company, only 70 cents goes toward insuring MEN AND WOMEN. Are you capable of recognizing the problem yet??

If there were universal health insurance… there would not be agents running thru a checklist of reasons NOT to insure people. How much more efficient can you get than to say, “Everybody is accepted”??

 

[royal_archer]

Uh…what are you talking about? You do realize, the entire point of insurance is, your neighbor (assuming they have the same insurance provider as you) is paying for your healthcare (indirectly) when you have a huge disaster of a medical issue, right?

No, Insurance is when people mutually agree to share risk with each contributing based on the level of their risk.

 

[pathia]

No, Insurance is when people mutually agree to share risk with each contributing based on the level of their risk.

There is no ‘risk’ for me, it is a fixed cost. The bare minimum to keep me going is the ~$2000 of pharmaceuticals I need to stay alive, which is about 95% of my income, without any taxes at all.

 

[royal_archer]

I feel like the people who are against universal health insurance just have no comprehension of how insurance works.

We all have healthcare needs that go unmet, in actuality, because the health insurance corporations instantly remove 30% of the money we give them.

Health insurance is a big black box. We put in 100% and get 70% out.

If we just stopped cherry-picking who gets it, and decide to put 100% of our monies toward health care, instead of insurance corporations… we would easily be able to support 100% of our Citizens, some of which are already passing on the costs of emergency care, as it is, to the insurance companies, who then pass it on only to those that have a group plan with their business.

As it is, we take tax money from all Citizens. Why not implement federal sales tax, so that all Citizens pay for their health insurance?? It is impossible to escape sales tax.

But, the entire reason that we are living beyond our means is because we gave up our right to life when we decided that corporations, with the sole purpose of turning a profit, will always have our best interest in mind.

If U.S. Citizens had a U.S. group plan, since all Citizens are agents of the U.S. Federal Government… we’d all put in, and 100% of the funds would come out, since we’ll always need health care (plus, if possible, we might even be able to draw interest on any unused funds).

None of this is rocket science. For every dollar that you give your insurance company, only 70 cents goes toward insuring MEN AND WOMEN. Are you capable of recognizing the problem yet??

If there were universal health insurance… there would not be agents running thru a checklist of reasons NOT to insure people. How much more efficient can you get than to say, “Everybody is accepted”??

No one is forcing you to go to a for profit isurance company. you can always go to a not for profit provider or self insure. wait never mind Obama took that right away from us.

By the way with cash for clunkers, the government wasted over half of the money.

Universal health insurance is not universal, it is simply a way to give low quality insurance to all while only making a discriminated against group pick up the bill for everyone. in other words forced servitude.

I guess you have never worked with the government if you think they won’t send people in to second guess doctors. they will come in after the fact and deny payments to doctors after the fact but will not make a ruling before hand. Therefore they doctor could never tell a patient the government won’t pay for a procedure, instead the doctor will have to take all of the risk.

 

[royal_archer]

There is no ‘risk’ for me, it is a fixed cost. The bare minimum to keep me going is the ~$2000 of pharmaceuticals I need to stay alive, which is about 95% of my income, without any taxes at all.

How many kids could be fed in Africa for that amount? If you feel that your needs trump others rights, why don’t you feel that money should be given to those who will bennefit more?

 

[pathia]

How many kids could be fed in Africa for that amount? If you feel that your needs trump others rights, why don’t you feel that money should be given to those who will bennefit more?

Again, here we go with the I should kill myself, even if you’re trying to get me to say it myself. I’ve already admitted this, what’s your point?

The drugs don’t actually cost $2000 a month anywhere else in the entire world. I get them currently by paying friends to pick them up in Europe and mail them to me.

 

[markbrumbaugh]

I feel like the people who are against universal health insurance just have no comprehension of how insurance works.

We all have healthcare needs that go unmet, in actuality, because the health insurance corporations instantly remove 30% of the money we give them.

Health insurance is a big black box. We put in 100% and get 70% out.

If we just stopped cherry-picking who gets it, and decide to put 100% of our monies toward health care, instead of insurance corporations… we would easily be able to support 100% of our Citizens, some of which are already passing on the costs of emergency care, as it is, to the insurance companies, who then pass it on only to those that have a group plan with their business.

As it is, we take tax money from all Citizens. Why not implement federal sales tax, so that all Citizens pay for their health insurance?? It is impossible to escape sales tax.

But, the entire reason that we are living beyond our means is because we gave up our right to life when we decided that corporations, with the sole purpose of turning a profit, will always have our best interest in mind.

If U.S. Citizens had a U.S. group plan, since all Citizens are agents of the U.S. Federal Government… we’d all put in, and 100% of the funds would come out, since we’ll always need health care (plus, if possible, we might even be able to draw interest on any unused funds).

None of this is rocket science. For every dollar that you give your insurance company, only 70 cents goes toward insuring MEN AND WOMEN. Are you capable of recognizing the problem yet??

If there were universal health insurance… there would not be agents running thru a checklist of reasons NOT to insure people. How much more efficient can you get than to say, “Everybody is accepted”??

If you actually think that 100% of the money that goes into the government comes back, then there isn’t anything I can say that will change your mind. And if you think insurance is expensive now, under your plan nothing would be denied, everything would be OK’d and I can’t even imagine what the cost would be then.

Please tell me where this 70% comes from by the way.

 

[Lypher]

We will be able to pay for Nationalized Health care by printing money until nobody wants the paper.

Then those people that can trade labor for healthcare will barter it. The rest of us will do without.

Cycles…

God Bless You all…

 

[runningdude]

Ad hominem attacks do not a sensible argument make. No one said “shut up and suffer.” That is your straw man and reflects rather poorly on your honesty.

True, Christ didn’t charge anyone to heal them, but neither did he forcibly take from one group and give to another.

Nor did he demand the government do it for him. He did it of his own resources and abilities. Also he did not cure all of them, only ones who showed great faith in him and those whom he chose to use to demonstrate his divinity.

As Mark admitted, he came off quite cold, and I felt obligated to call that out. Thank-you Mark. Pathia, I’m glad your getting covered!

I’ve shared my own “sob” story of my broken (but healing) neck, and Pathia’s shared his story, and numerous others have shared they’re story, and while I get that these alone won’t change someone’s opinion, what I hope to show is that there are two sides to this health insurance debacle. I seem to find that everyone has been denied insurance and needs health care are fully in favor of reform. Those who are healthy and have insurance can’t understand why we would want to mess up such a perfect system.

I see a lot of petty arguments, such as simply not wanting to pay for other people’s healthcare. As an example from outside this thread my nursing friend I mentioned earlier, a very baptist, bible as the sole authority girl, says in part that she doesn’t like the idea of paying for someone else’s healthcare, yet also admits that such a position isn’t biblical. She can even openly cite a bible parable that contradicts her point of view, the Good Samaritan who pays for the care of the injured man.

I also hear a lot of arguments describing how we shouldn’t be covering people who “refuse” to work. By sharing our stories of being trampled by the insurance companies, we hope to chip away at this myth that all insurance gaps are caused by laziness.

With some of the heated rhetoric I’m hearing about those currently uninsured or under-insured, you would think the uninsured were our “enemies” or something! At the risk of further provoking an all reading inflamed thread, I offer this quote from Saint Paul in

“Share with God’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.” Romans 12:13

“…If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Romans 12:20

Saint Paul tells us to care for all, even those who are an unjust burden to us.

 

[markbrumbaugh]

Medical care ratio
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Medical care ratio (MCR), also known as medical cost ratio, medical loss ratio, and medical benefit ratio, is a metric used in managed health care and health insurance to measure medical costs as a percentage of premium revenues.[1] It is a type of loss ratio, which is a common metric in insurance measuring the percentage of premiums paid out in claims rather than expenses and profit provision. It is calculated by dividing those premiums allocated for fully insured or self-funded health care coverage into the total expenses for (name removed by moderator)atient, professional (physicians and other licensed providers), outpatient, and pharmacy. (Briefly, MCR = Costs/Premiums.) As a general rule, a medical cost ratio of 85% or higher is desirable. Some insurers now call MCR “benefit cost ratio” (BCR). In the United States, the term is Medical Loss Ratio.

I also looked up Aetna and their profit as a percent of revenue (premiums) is about 3%.

I calculated once that I’ll get about 1/10 of the social security money put in by me and my company over the past 40 years, at current net present value. We would all be better off paying for our own care, and investing in a health savings account pretax with catastophic insurance on top.

 

[royal_archer]

Again, here we go with the I should kill myself, even if you’re trying to get me to say it myself. I’ve already admitted this, what’s your point?

The drugs don’t actually cost $2000 a month anywhere else in the entire world. I get them currently by paying friends to pick them up in Europe and mail them to me.

I didn’t say you should kill youself, nor has anyone else that I have seen. What I do see is a double standard. while you seem to believe your needs trump others rights, then why don’t others needs trump your rights?

Then why don’t you move to where the drugs are cheaper?

 

[pathia]

I didn’t say you should kill youself, nor has anyone else that I have seen. What I do see is a double standard. while you seem to believe your needs trump others rights, then why don’t others needs trump your rights?

Then why don’t you move to where the drugs are cheaper?

As I have REPEATEDLY said, you cannot move with high levels of DEBT. They will deport you. I have already fled the country once and had to return due to this factor. I would have to flee and live as an illegal in another country, but then you don’t qualify for anything anyway.

As for other needs trumping mine, why do you think I don’t go to the free clinics as much as I could? Because it would take away from others that could more better use it. Again you assume assume assume assume and put words, deeds and actions into my life without asking. Please. Stop.

 

[royal_archer]

As Mark admitted, he came off quite cold, and I felt obligated to call that out. Thank-you Mark. Pathia, I’m glad your getting covered!

I’ve shared my own “sob” story of my broken (but healing) neck, and Pathia’s shared his story, and numerous others have shared they’re story, and while I get that these alone won’t change someone’s opinion, what I hope to show is that there are two sides to this health insurance debacle. I seem to find that everyone has been denied insurance and needs health care are fully in favor of reform. Those who are healthy and have insurance can’t understand why we would want to mess up such a perfect system.

And what about those of us who are not healthy? I have an injured neck that has never healed right. Many others also have medical issues but we keep pushing forward.

I see a lot of petty arguments, such as simply not wanting to pay for other people’s healthcare. As an example from outside this thread my nursing friend I mentioned earlier, a very baptist, bible as the sole authority girl, says in part that she doesn’t like the idea of paying for someone else’s healthcare, yet also admits that such a position isn’t biblical. She can even openly cite a bible parable that contradicts her point of view, the Good Samaritan who pays for the care of the injured man.

Again this is individual charity, not a government steal and spread scheme.

I also hear a lot of arguments describing how we shouldn’t be covering people who “refuse” to work. By sharing our stories of being trampled by the insurance companies, we hope to chip away at this myth that all insurance gaps are caused by laziness.

Not all gaps are caused by laziness but a significant number. fixing those will relieve the burden on the system and bring the level of people needing help down to levels where charity can help the rest. right now a few people who realy need help are burried in a system bloated down with lazy people. Unfortunately the government is pursuing a policy that will only lead to more sloth.

With some of the heated rhetoric I’m hearing about those currently uninsured or under-insured, you would think the uninsured were our “enemies” or something! At the risk of further provoking an all reading inflamed thread, I offer this quote from Saint Paul in

“Share with God’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.” Romans 12:13

“…If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Romans 12:20

Saint Paul tells us to care for all, even those who are an unjust burden to us.

How is having your money taken by an athiest government helping out God’s people?

Also I d not consider those with out insurance my enemy and do not wish them to burn in hell.

2nd Thessalonians chapter 3:

6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we urge you, brothers, to keep away from any of the brothers who lives an undisciplined life, not in accordance with the tradition you received from us.
7 You know how you should take us as your model: we were not undisciplined when we were with you,
8 nor did we ever accept food from anyone without paying for it; no, we worked with unsparing energy, night and day, so as not to be a burden on any of you.
9 This was not because we had no right to be, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to imitate.
10 We urged you when we were with you not to let anyone eat who refused to work.
11 Now we hear that there are some of you who are living lives without any discipline, doing no work themselves but interfering with other people’s.
12 In the Lord Jesus Christ, we urge and call on people of this kind to go on quietly working and earning the food that they eat.
13 My brothers, never slacken in doing what is right.
14 If anyone refuses to obey what I have written in this letter, take note of him and have nothing to do with him, so that he will be ashamed of himself,
15 though you are not to treat him as an enemy, but to correct him as a brother.

 

[royal_archer]

As I have REPEATEDLY said, you cannot move with high levels of DEBT. They will deport you. I have already fled the country once and had to return due to this factor. I would have to flee and live as an illegal in another country, but then you don’t qualify for anything anyway.

As for other needs trumping mine, why do you think I don’t go to the free clinics as much as I could? Because it would take away from others that could more better use it. Again you assume assume assume assume and put words, deeds and actions into my life without asking. Please. Stop.

But you support a law that forces us to pay for illegal aliens here?

I am not putting words into your mouth, I am simply questioning statements which appear to be in conflict.

 

[pathia]

But you support a law that forces us to pay for illegal aliens here?

I am not putting words into your mouth, I am simply questioning statements which appear to be in conflict.

Um…no, here you go again. When have I ever said I supported the law as it passed 100% without question, fail, or anything at all? All I have said is that it would help ME.

 

[royal_archer]

Um…no, here you go again. When have I ever said I supported the law as it passed 100% without question, fail, or anything at all? All I have said is that it would help ME.

Realy? The are you now saying you oppose Obama’s health care legislation?

 

[runningdude]

Realy? The are you now saying you oppose Obama’s health care legislation?

I think she saying she believes the law isn’t perfect. No piece of legislation is. However in her particular case, it will help pay for the chronic care she needs, rather than leave suffering through the pains of her condition, and the pains of bankruptcy paying for it.

Hearing some of the thing on this thread, I concede that the current legislation will need refinement in the coming years and decades. But I fundamentally believe that doing nothing will hurt the country and millions of Americans without coverage more than whatever direct or indirect consequences of this newly passed legislation might be.

 

[pathia]

Realy? The are you now saying you oppose Obama’s health care legislation?

I think it is bloated, riddled with bribes and is inefficient. That doesn’t mean the goal is wrong, or that it won’t help lots of people.