Why do you think forced healthcare is immoral?

[joe_clark]

Everyone is talking about the “TAX” part of this but if you really read the bill it does provide for Abortion and require all hospitals that get any Medicare funds to do Abortions, and Doctors can not refuse to provide Abortions. And the Executive Order that he signed does not legally overide the Law. The Health Insurances companies MUST offer and pay for Abortion.

Now that is IMMORAL!!!

If you belive or think that the current healthcare bill provides in any way shape or form for abortion, you would be wrong.

The healthcare bill has no- NO provisions for abortion. Stupak took a lot of (you know what) just to make sure that it did not. The reason is simple, because abortion is already allowed by law in this country. Under this healthcare bill just passed, if one decides for abortion, then they will have to pay for it. In the bill, it is labeled as an exclusion and insurance companies love those too.

 

[Vezelay]

I wonder why the Catholic Hospitals, 1400 Catholic nursing homes, and 59,000 nuns all came out strongly supporting the Health Care Reform bill with is now law. I’ll go with the hospitals and nursing homes and nuns. They all know a thing or two about health care. Wake up, Catholics. This is a fine law for all. It answers our church’s cry for social justice. Why should we rich seniors get our health care paid for while some family making $35,000 and raising a couple of kids can’t get health care because one child has diabetes and the employer doesn’t offer insurance and they couldn’t afford premiums even if some company would overlook the preexisting condition. The new law would give them a subside to purchase the insurance. Isn’t that the Christian way? Abortion is the least of our worries. By the way, why do so many Catholics get abortions?
Vezelay

 

[royal_archer]

I don’t covet your goods. I don’t want your house, or your tvs, or your appliances or even your car. I haven’t robbed any banks or shoplifted. Sounds like Im following your favorite commandments to obsess over just fine.

Not directly, but if you are getting any form of public assistance, you are just using Uncle Sam as a middle man.

 

[royal_archer]

After reading how much you religious types care about your fellow man, I am glad I am not religious.

I assume you are refering to those who do not give to charity, do not provide labor, and do not provide comfort to those in need and instead they just sit around asking the government to steal and spread. Right?

 

[royal_archer]

I wonder why the Catholic Hospitals, 1400 Catholic nursing homes, and 59,000 nuns all came out strongly supporting the Health Care Reform bill with is now law. I’ll go with the hospitals and nursing homes and nuns. They all know a thing or two about health care. Wake up, Catholics. This is a fine law for all. It answers our church’s cry for social justice. Why should we rich seniors get our health care paid for while some family making $35,000 and raising a couple of kids can’t get health care because one child has diabetes and the employer doesn’t offer insurance and they couldn’t afford premiums even if some company would overlook the preexisting condition. The new law would give them a subside to purchase the insurance. Isn’t that the Christian way? Abortion is the least of our worries. By the way, why do so many Catholics get abortions?
Vezelay

This bill hurts those in the middle. Those who are not rich but not welfare dependents. There are many Americans in the middle who will loose jobs, get pay cuts, be forced to buy cadilac plans, etc. The Christian way is to help others, not force others to provide the help so you don’t have to.

 

[TenBobNote]

I wonder why the Catholic Hospitals, 1400 Catholic nursing homes, and 59,000 nuns all came out strongly supporting the Health Care Reform bill with is now law. I’ll go with the hospitals and nursing homes and nuns. They all know a thing or two about health care. Wake up, Catholics. This is a fine law for all. It answers our church’s cry for social justice. Why should we rich seniors get our health care paid for while some family making $35,000 and raising a couple of kids can’t get health care because one child has diabetes and the employer doesn’t offer insurance and they couldn’t afford premiums even if some company would overlook the preexisting condition. The new law would give them a subside to purchase the insurance. Isn’t that the Christian way? Abortion is the least of our worries. By the way, why do so many Catholics get abortions?
Vezelay

First of all, I have serious concern for your disregard to the seriousness of abortion.

Secondly, learn economics, “Economics In One Lesson” by Henry Hazlitt. It’s free at your library, its short, and easy to read.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Not directly, but if you are getting any form of public assistance, you are just using Uncle Sam as a middle man.

Not according to the Catholic church so I,m fine.

 

[tr1strev]

If you belive or think that the current healthcare bill provides in any way shape or form for abortion, you would be wrong.

The healthcare bill has no- NO provisions for abortion. Stupak took a lot of (you know what) just to make sure that it did not. The reason is simple, because abortion is already allowed by law in this country. Under this healthcare bill just passed, if one decides for abortion, then they will have to pay for it. In the bill, it is labeled as an exclusion and insurance companies love those too.

You are so incredibly wrong. The bill is laden with “woman’s healthcare services” and Stupek did nothing but give any actual pro-life democrat (if one exists anymore) a stab in the back.

 

[grndslm]

You don’t need to be wealthy to get good health coverage, you just need to have a regular job. (not some part time or entry level job)

A break down over a sore throat?

Umm… No, it’s not “over a sore throat”. It’s over the red bumps on the back of my throat. It’s in my inability to breath without using my Albuterol/Ventolin inhalers [that I have to purchase from Mexico, FYI] at least 20 times a day. And yes, even the persistent sore throat that I’ve had for a month.

It just isn’t right to make others pay for an annonymous someone who doesn’t work enough to earn their keep and wants to see a specialist for a sore throat.

You have issues with comprehension.

I’ll ignore the innapropriate insult.

forced is when you threaten someone with punitive efforts if they do not buy into a system against your will.

The poor and needy are not discriminated against. They have an equal right and ability to earn a paycheck and use it for what ever they see fit.

That education should start with the 10 commandments. Thou shall not steal, covet thei neighbors goods, etc.

royal archer, are you sure that you’re really forced??

I’m positive that you’re not. Nobody is making you remain a U.S. Citizen. Nobody is making you to ignore all Notices to turn over your money. Nobody is holding your hands down so that you can’t file a “Notice of Understanding and Intent” and “Claim of Right”.

If the government tells you to do something, and you do it… YOU chose to do it, even tho you might believe you didn’t have a choice.

According to the Uniform Commercial Code, allowing someone to run over you, so long as you don’t speak up, is completely legal. That’s called “silent acquiescence”.

 

[bhcordova]

For the past 6 years, I was on the board of directors for the local community clinic. All the health care professionals there were all for universal health coverage. Even if it meant that since everyone has insurance, it could end the reason they exist. They see each day the problems we have with the current system.

People who say that there is the ER for people without insurance are probably unaware that the ER is the most expensive place to get medical care there is. A typical trip to the ER can cost several thousand dollars. Yet, may people use it everyday for routine medical problems. If you cannot pay for care in the ER, the taxpayers get to pay it. So, without this bill, the taxpayers pay thousands of dollars everyday for people without insurance. With this bill the taxpayers pay around 10-15 dollars everyday for those same people. Just on an economic level, it sounds like a no-brainer to me.

 

[Shasta4737]

Wow, so many people here are against paying taxes for social programs. Think of what it is like in countries where the poor get no governmental help. Wouldn’t it be horrific to have poor people eating out of trash cans in the US? What if people were knocking on your back door begging and sleeping in your yard? This happened during the Great Depression (and long before).
Does anyone really believe that enough people will voluntarily pay for all the needs of the poor? This never happened before at any time in history --not even in Christian countries.
Now think of Jesus. He lived under the rule of the Roman Government where there were huge taxes. Some of those taxes did go for public works like roads and also for the military but much of it went to the powerful leaders for their own personal profit – riches beyond belief while the poor practically starved.
I didn’t see Jesus carrying protest signs against even those unfair taxes. He said his kingdom was not of this world. If our government is going to tax so much, at the very least much of it is going to help the poor and disadvantaged. Surely Jesus would be glad our country cares about people who need help.

 

[royal_archer]

For the past 6 years, I was on the board of directors for the local community clinic. All the health care professionals there were all for universal health coverage. Even if it meant that since everyone has insurance, it could end the reason they exist. They see each day the problems we have with the current system.

People who say that there is the ER for people without insurance are probably unaware that the ER is the most expensive place to get medical care there is. A typical trip to the ER can cost several thousand dollars. Yet, may people use it everyday for routine medical problems. If you cannot pay for care in the ER, the taxpayers get to pay it. So, without this bill, the taxpayers pay thousands of dollars everyday for people without insurance. With this bill the taxpayers pay around 10-15 dollars everyday for those same people. Just on an economic level, it sounds like a no-brainer to me.

We don’t disagree that there is a problem we just think a government health care take over is the wrong approach and will not solve the problem. Instead of just passing the costs around we should be getting more people to contribute.

 

[royal_archer]

Wow, so many people here are against paying taxes for social programs. Think of what it is like in countries where the poor get no governmental help. Wouldn’t it be horrific to have poor people eating out of trash cans in the US? What if people were knocking on your back door begging and sleeping in your yard? This happened during the Great Depression (and long before).
Does anyone really believe that enough people will voluntarily pay for all the needs of the poor? This never happened before at any time in history --not even in Christian countries.
Now think of Jesus. He lived under the rule of the Roman Government where there were huge taxes. Some of those taxes did go for public works like roads and also for the military but much of it went to the powerful leaders for their own personal profit – riches beyond belief while the poor practically starved.
I didn’t see Jesus carrying protest signs against even those unfair taxes. He said his kingdom was not of this world. If our government is going to tax so much, at the very least much of it is going to help the poor and disadvantaged. Surely Jesus would be glad our country cares about people who need help.

Actually like your description of the Roman empire. Most of our tax dollars are taken by the rich rulling class and other government employees. With cash for clunkers less than half of the money went to actually paying for cars. That money would be better spent getting spent for our needs and the people who get hired would then have more money to spend so other people get hired …
Tax funded welfare programs do not improve the quality of life, they simply lower the average quality of life while redistributing resources from the productive to the unproductive. This punnishes people for being productive while rewarding others for being unproductive, encouraging more people to be unproductive.

 

[royal_archer]

According to the Uniform Commercial Code, allowing someone to run over you, so long as you don’t speak up, is completely legal. That’s called “silent acquiescence”.

Not when there is a threat of force.

 

[LayingHands]

A few of these threads have been popping up since the passage of the healthcare bill, and I notice quite a few of you are upset over the mandate section of the bill.

I am curious if you think that it’s also immoral for the government to tax you in any way (re: being forced to purchase something), and if it’s immoral for the government to make you follow any other laws (re: forced charity).

If you think one is okay but not the other, why?

I fail to see how this can be immoral? First you have people complaining about having to pay their fair share of taxes towards other peoples health care, since they have no health insurance to pay for the vices, they have practiced all their lives, only to find they now suffer from cancer because of smoking, gluttonous eating and alcoholic drinking or AIDS, HIV and or addictived to drugs, from their promicuous lives…except that NOW, they are going to be REQUIRED to pay for thier own health care so I as a Tax Payer, don’t have to anymore…I don’t want to infringe on anybodies personal rights and I don’t see how immorality has anything to do with personal choices…still, it appears you have people complaining about the fact that they have to pay their own health insurance for choosing vices which eventually kills them?? As long as I don’t have to pay for them anymore, it is about time they are finally paying for their own lives.

 

[Clandestine]

My opposition is is also based on experience; government interference in anything drives up costs while reducing effectiveness, and health care is already expensive and ineffective enough.

The USPS does an excellent job of delivering my mail, and with the flat rate Priority Mail, no private company can beat that, not UPS, not Federal Express. You have overgeneralized.

 

[TenBobNote]

The USPS does an excellent job of delivering my mail, and with the flat rate Priority Mail, no private company can beat that, not UPS, not Federal Express. You have overgeneralized.

Except they are bankrupt! If UPS or FedEx could borrow millions and millions of dollars from the treasury and run in a deficit every year they would seem like they did a heck of a job too!

He did not overgeneralize.

 

[grndslm]

For the past 6 years, I was on the board of directors for the local community clinic. All the health care professionals there were all for universal health coverage. Even if it meant that since everyone has insurance, it could end the reason they exist. They see each day the problems we have with the current system.

People who say that there is the ER for people without insurance are probably unaware that the ER is the most expensive place to get medical care there is. A typical trip to the ER can cost several thousand dollars. Yet, may people use it everyday for routine medical problems. If you cannot pay for care in the ER, the taxpayers get to pay it. So, without this bill, the taxpayers pay thousands of dollars everyday for people without insurance. With this bill the taxpayers pay around 10-15 dollars everyday for those same people. Just on an economic level, it sounds like a no-brainer to me.

EXACTLY!!!

There are so many people clogging up the ER with petty things that they can’t go elsewhere for, it’s ridiculous. They are racking up bills that they won’t have to pay, and that the hospital will only have to pass on to the insurance companies, who pass it on to the people who CAN go get preventative care.

That is it in a nutshell. From an economic standpoint, getting people out of the emergency room and seeing a preventative care doctor, would allow our government to INSURE (not “come between you and your doctor”) all Americans without even increasing costs. It’s basic mathematics, people.

Tax funded welfare programs do not improve the quality of life, they simply lower the average quality of life while redistributing resources from the productive to the unproductive.

Umm… Tax funded GENERAL WELFARE programs do improve the quality of life, and they are constitutional. “Specific” welfare, to provide for poor families with excess children… is unconstitutional.

Obamacare isn’t quite “general welfare”, but in a system of health insurance that is so incredibly corrupt and broken… I’d say it really does make great decisions for all of us individually and as a country. I posted a link to “what’s in the bill”… perhaps you could tell me something specific in the bill that you didn’t like.

Not when there is a threat of force.

What are you talking about? Could you give me an example of how the government could possibly force you to do anything.

If you are a U.S. Citizen, you MUST sign up for health insurance or pay a $795 fine per year if you go to a hospital while making more than $14,000/yr.

Well… if this only applies to U.S. Citizens, why would you remain one?

If a corporation known as THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA or the INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE send you a Notice that you need to respond to their Notice within 30 days or admit that you owe them $795…

WHY ON GOD’S GREEN EARTH WOULD YOU NOT RESPOND TO THE NOTICE WITH YOUR OWN NOTICE!?!??

There’s always a choice, and you’re not forced… it only appears that way, because you want to make a big fuss about how you “don’t feel responsible for your own life”.

 

[TenBobNote]

EXACTLY!!!
If you are a U.S. Citizen, you MUST sign up for health insurance or pay a $795 fine per year if you go to a hospital while making more than $14,000/yr.

Well… if this only applies to U.S. Citizens, why would you remain one?

If a corporation known as THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA or the INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE send you a Notice that you need to respond to their Notice within 30 days or admit that you owe them $795…

WHY ON GOD’S GREEN EARTH WOULD YOU NOT RESPOND TO THE NOTICE WITH YOUR OWN NOTICE!?!??

There’s always a choice, and you’re not forced… it only appears that way, because you want to make a big fuss about how you “don’t feel responsible for your own life”.

That is force, you must comply, respond, pay, or go to jail.

 

[Darkbloom]

The USPS does an excellent job of delivering my mail, and with the flat rate Priority Mail, no private company can beat that, not UPS, not Federal Express. You have overgeneralized.

The USPS has a government protected monopoly. I also know for a positive fact, having worked for Fed Ex, that Postal Service contracts a lot of their mail out to private carriers like Fed Ex.