Why do you think forced healthcare is immoral?

[dragonlady9947]

I believe all living beings have a right to food/water, clothing, shelter, quality healthcare, and to be safe. I think Jesus might believe the same thing today. He fed the hungry and healed the sick - Nothing is written about him howling he was paying too much tax. The people he cured do not seem to have howled ‘he is shoving healthcare down my throat’. Americans do not believe any of this. They are only worried that they might get taxed and to h*** with anything else. And then there is pseudo charity. Throw money at it - but don’t give of yourself. If you really look at the teachings of Jesus, he was not a Libertarian, a GOP, or even a Democrat. He shared all he had and tried to make life better for others.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

A few of these threads have been popping up since the passage of the healthcare bill, and I notice quite a few of you are upset over the mandate section of the bill.

I am curious if you think that it’s also immoral for the government to tax you in any way (re: being forced to purchase something), and if it’s immoral for the government to make you follow any other laws (re: forced charity).

If you think one is okay but not the other, why?

Two words: Terri Schiavo.

As an exercise, try to connect the dots. If you arrive there on your own, you’ve got it. It is a grave moral offense to render unto Caesar what is God’s. This is exactly what Deathcare has done.

I could also add that every single physician I’ve spoken to is dead-set against forced ‘health care.’

Actual quotes from doctors:

“It will absolutely lead to rationed care.”

“My colleagues are all retiring early, and I love what I do, but I may be forced out the door as well.”

 

[Ed_CA]

Big Brother had hearings in which Goldman Sachs executives were forced to testify. Did not the American people ever hear of “ BUYER BEWARE”? Big Brother wants to force more regulations down the throat of Americans like forced health care insurance. It is better to be robbed at gun point than to have Big Brother protecting us. So what if persons lost their jobs, their homes, and pensions. It is the fault of those who lost because they were too lazy and stupid to be vigilant. The so-called Wall St reform will be forced down the American people’s throats like health care.

 

[Milamaya]

But not necessarily mutually exclusive.

I think it’s immoral since it is part of a greater plan by those who put it into effect. It’s going to be corrupt and ineffecient, and do little of what it’s touted to do. One of our local federal representatives said that everyone in America will get the same health care as members of Congress. Now seriously, who really believes that?

And that it will lower the deficit? Sure, for a couple years when we’re paying taxes for it, but nobody gets any benefits. Then, conveniently, when the authors are out of office, the **** hits the fan. If it was so great, so moral, why don’t the benefits start immediately?

What will happen is that it will end up costing way more than “expected”, and our taxes will be ever increasing to pay for this corrupt monstrocity. Moral? No. Not a sentance addressing tort reform, one of the major needs of health care reform.

Anyway, it’s tough to discuss without getting too political.

I think some of the other taxes are immoral also; Medicare and Medicade, for example. Social Security, too. These taxes are used to feed corruption, with only a small part of the money ever benefitting those whom these programs are intended to serve.

As well, any government program that spends us into debt is bound to collapse our economy sooner or later, and that is immoral. Ask our Grandchildren if they think their taxes-to-be are fair, when they’ll be seeing 50 or 60% of their income go to taxation.

So, I believe it’s a matte of both the way we are being taxed (forced to buy under penalty of fine) as well as **what **we are being taxed for that is immoral.

Well Said!

 

[jdarcangelo]

Forced healthcare is NOT “immoral.” People are getting, what they perceive as “unconstitutional,” mixed up with “immoral.” If something is immoral it is a SIN. Asking everyone to pay into our tax system so that those without health care can have it is charitable in my book (isn’t that what Christ wanted/wants us to do?). To deny those who have no insurance through no fault of their own is IMMORAL. People who don’t want national health care are selfish, THAT IS IMMORAL, THAT IS A SIN! So many people don’t understand this new policy and how it will affect them. Think about it, ask questions, read the newspaper…find out what it means before asking such a silly question.

 

[jdarcangelo]

If you feel so strongly that Medicare and Medicade are wrong, why not opt out of it and pay for it yourself. That goes for all your relatives as well. It will save a lot of tax dollars for the rest of us.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Big Brother had hearings in which Goldman Sachs executives were forced to testify. Did not the American people ever hear of “ BUYER BEWARE”? Big Brother wants to force more regulations down the throat of Americans like forced health care insurance. It is better to be robbed at gun point than to have Big Brother protecting us. So what if persons lost their jobs, their homes, and pensions. It is the fault of those who lost because they were too lazy and stupid to be vigilant. The so-called Wall St reform will be forced down the American people’s throats like health care.

Everyone knows that Goldman Sachs lied about what they were selling. Obviously you are not against lieing and misrepresentation.

 

[royal_archer]

I believe all living beings have a right to food/water, clothing, shelter, quality healthcare, and to be safe. I think Jesus might believe the same thing today. He fed the hungry and healed the sick - Nothing is written about him howling he was paying too much tax. The people he cured do not seem to have howled ‘he is shoving healthcare down my throat’. Americans do not believe any of this. They are only worried that they might get taxed and to h*** with anything else. And then there is pseudo charity. Throw money at it - but don’t give of yourself. If you really look at the teachings of Jesus, he was not a Libertarian, a GOP, or even a Democrat. He shared all he had and tried to make life better for others.

You missed on this one. Jesus did not heal all of the sick or feed all of the hungry. He only did so for those who followed him or had faith in him. We should learn from this that if we have faith and follow him he will take care of us.

 

[royal_archer]

Forced healthcare is NOT “immoral.” People are getting, what they perceive as “unconstitutional,” mixed up with “immoral.” If something is immoral it is a SIN. Asking everyone to pay into our tax system so that those without health care can have it is charitable in my book (isn’t that what Christ wanted/wants us to do?). To deny those who have no insurance through no fault of their own is IMMORAL. People who don’t want national health care are selfish, THAT IS IMMORAL, THAT IS A SIN! So many people don’t understand this new policy and how it will affect them. Think about it, ask questions, read the newspaper…find out what it means before asking such a silly question.

Thou shall not steal.

In voluntary Nationalized health care that rewards people for not working, pads the wallets of lobbyists, and diverts money from the people who truly need it is immoral.

 

[royal_archer]

If you feel so strongly that Medicare and Medicade are wrong, why not opt out of it and pay for it yourself. That goes for all your relatives as well. It will save a lot of tax dollars for the rest of us.

You can not opt out they will continue to take the money from you as long as you attempt to stand on your own two feet.

 

[Lypher]

The logic is sound, just as Truth is irrefutable. You can’t possibly defeat Truth.

Unfortunately the Government has more shear power… The people in Waco believed that they had the God given rights to live as they chose. They (qualidied) "MAY" have been right, but they are mostly dead now…

 

[Ed_CA]

Many years ago, a man quit his job to become a homeless bum wandering around, keeping company with the bottom dwellers of society. He had the gall to tell his fellow bums that they had worth and were part of a new society and they had the duty to care for each other. He deliberately offended those who were the defenders of the existing social norms, and denounced our cherished ideal that greed is good. He even told the story of another outcast, a Samaritan who was the precursor of universal health care. Fortunately, this wandering bum was executed to shut Him up. Unfortunately, a few of His followers have this crazy idiotic notion of social justice that ordinary people have a right, not a privilege, to health care and protections of society. This man was a dangerous radical who deserved execution; if He were alive today, He would also deserve a brutal execution.

 

[Phil_Stone]

Just a few comments on various objections.

The fact is that everyone is already paying for the medical care of those who get care but cannot pay for it. Everyone having insurance reduces the bills hospitals cannot collect upon, and increases the chances of an early diagnosis which will save a life and/or significantly reduce the cost of treatment. It also makes it clear how much one is really spending on Health Care. Do people who want to be free to not have insurance really want others to abandon them when they need help, or are they just trying to get a free ride?

The idea that people are going to be put in jail is a lie that even Bill OReilly recognizes as such. In fact he even insists that no one on Fox has been trying to spread it. The fact is that the Health Care program is woven into the tax rules, so that if one refuses to pay the fine for not having insurance, the fine can simply be deducted from one’s anticipated tax refund.

The idea that people should not support public schools, or that home schooling is just as good, is just silly. Forget that in many households there is no one around to do the homeschooling. Perhaps some homeschoolers do better than some public school students, but not many do as well as the kids that go to our local schools. And the fact is that those kids will not only carry the weight of the economy in the future, but also the weight of democracy. How any one can live in a democracy and not want the people there to be educated as well as is practical is beyond me. Unless one wants to be able to fool them.

 

[Ella]

The argument should be what is the distinction between rights and privileges. If private property ownership is a right, then the Lincoln was wrong in the Emancipation Proclamation because slaves were private property. Women did not have the voting privileges, they were granted this privilege by men. One cannot just claim a privilege to be a right; they only right one has is that of free choice.
The defenders of the US Constitution realize health care is just a privilege, not a right. Hence, it is unconstitutional for Big Brother to force persons whether it be health insurance, flood insurance, fire and home insurance, automobile insurance, or life insurance. If one freely chooses not to buy any type insurance, and through bad luck, has a calamity, then one can go happily to the grave knowing that he or she did not submit to Big Brother.

Thank God for Fox News!!

I actually do not have a problem with the idea that if someone chooses not to buy insurance, and gets sick or injured, that they have to pay out of pocket for care. What I have a problem with is the fact that there are people who want to buy insurance, who would buy insurance, only there is no insurance that they can purchase. Lose your job and, whilst between coverage, get cancer? You won’t be able to buy insurance. THAT is the old system, it’s unique to the U.S. out of all first world countries, and it is one of the things Obamacare attempts to address.
I also have a problem with the fact that after my paying into insurance for decades, the insurance company can decide not to cover me. I think that if an insurance company declines coverage of a client, that they should refund the money that that client has paid for the coverage over the history of the policy. ALL of the money.

Back to the person who could afford to, but chooses not to buy insurance, and who then gets sick or injured. What would they do in the old system? They go to the ER, and get billed. If they can’t pay the bill, then collections start. They might find a way to pay. They might file bankruptcy. If the latter, then we (you and I) pay. It’s the most expensive way for us to pay for health care for someone without health insurance. But make no mistake. We pay. We already pay for everyone that Royal Archer etc. claims is stealing from us. Only in the old system, we pay the highest prices we can get for this service. This is another problem that Obamacare is attempting to address.

Personally I think Obamacare has had most of its teeth pulled by partisan politics. We would do well to learn from the French, German, and Swiss health care systems, and what we have in Obamacare is nowhere near as sensible or strong as those countries’ health care systems, but it’s a start.

 

[joe_clark]

You missed on this one. Jesus did not heal all of the sick or feed all of the hungry. He only did so for those who followed him or had faith in him. We should learn from this that if we have faith and follow him he will take care of us.

Is this correct? Didn’t Jesus comfort the sick and dying that initially did not believe? Jesus did not hold it against them because they were confused and frightened. Life is a journey that you evolve in. I think you missed this one? Peace!

 

[Arandur]

Why do people keep calling health care a “right?” Let’s get that nonsense out of the discussion so that it can be more clear and precise.

If we are talking about intrinsic rights, it is not, and can never be. An intrinsic right must be a right for every human being in all times and all places, for one. Never before in human history was it even thinkable that people could have a “right” to healthcare. Still in many countries this is the case. Health care is, frankly, a luxury and therefore a privilege. Period.

Second, to assert that health care is a “right” is to assert that you have a positive “right” to make a demand on someone to provide you a service. You are claiming that we have a right, essentially, to the labor of people who know how to provide that service. Thus the forced underpayment of doctors in this system. To assert that you have a “right” to health care is insisting on a right, ultimately, to force someone to do something for you. By this reasoning, slavery is a valid right!

All true intrinsic rights (like this country recognizes in the Declaration of Independence) are God-given and are rights against someone doing something to you. Thus the God-given rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Never and nowhere do you have a natural and intrinsic “right” to force someone to do anything for you. Man-given rights are all really just privileges granted and provided for by government.

Health care is therefore a privilege and not a right.

I will add my voice to those who have pointed out that health care is already available to everyone through emergency services. I think it’s both funny and sad that the “solution” to get 35 million uninsured people who weren’t buying insurance to get insurance was to force them to buy insurance. Boy, did it take a genius to figure that one out? How did people miss this? Is it some great wonder that you can get people insured if you force them to buy insurance?

The problems and immoralities lie with many things the bill does and funds. Yes, much of it is fundamentally in violation of the spirit of the Constitution of this country. It also doesn’t make economic sense. The morality of various aspects can be debated (is it better to further enable people who are addicts, obese, smokers, and alcoholics to continue their self-destructive habits by giving them cheap health care that the rest of us are paying for? Must we, to be morally upright, bankrupt ourselves and make helping more innocent victims of accidents and diseases difficult, more expensive, or impossible?).

As for forcing people to pay into it, I think it violates our right to liberty–our right to make choices about what services we want to purchase. Many parts of the content of the bill make this a more egregious violation (effective public funding of abortion, directly or indirectly; forcing people into a heavily-regulated system that will further restrict options by mandating certain coverages, place demands on medical personnel, etc.). Since our Constitution, that social and governmental contract that we agree to with our citizenship, makes no provision for forcing people to purchase a good, this is a violation of our social contract, as well. It is a tyrannical imposition that would only properly be placed by a constutional amendment, IMO.

 

[OLS]

Why do people keep calling health care a “right?” Let’s get that nonsense out of the discussion so that it can be more clear and precise.

If we are talking about intrinsic rights, it is not, and can never be. An intrinsic right must be a right for every human being in all times and all places, for one. Never before in human history was it even thinkable that people could have a “right” to healthcare. Still in many countries this is the case. Health care is, frankly, a luxury and therefore a privilege. Period.

Second, to assert that health care is a “right” is to assert that you have a positive “right” to make a demand on someone to provide you a service. You are claiming that we have a right, essentially, to the labor of people who know how to provide that service. Thus the forced underpayment of doctors in this system. To assert that you have a “right” to health care is insisting on a right, ultimately, to force someone to do something for you. By this reasoning, slavery is a valid right!

All true intrinsic rights (like this country recognizes in the Declaration of Independence) are God-given and are rights against someone doing something to you. Thus the God-given rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Never and nowhere do you have a natural and intrinsic “right” to force someone to do anything for you. Man-given rights are all really just privileges granted and provided for by government.

Health care is therefore a privilege and not a right.

I will add my voice to those who have pointed out that health care is already available to everyone through emergency services. I think it’s both funny and sad that the “solution” to get 35 million uninsured people who weren’t buying insurance to get insurance was to force them to buy insurance. Boy, did it take a genius to figure that one out? How did people miss this? Is it some great wonder that you can get people insured if you force them to buy insurance?

The problems and immoralities lie with many things the bill does and funds. Yes, much of it is fundamentally in violation of the spirit of the Constitution of this country. It also doesn’t make economic sense. The morality of various aspects can be debated (is it better to further enable people who are addicts, obese, smokers, and alcoholics to continue their self-destructive habits by giving them cheap health care that the rest of us are paying for? Must we, to be morally upright, bankrupt ourselves and make helping more innocent victims of accidents and diseases difficult, more expensive, or impossible?).

As for forcing people to pay into it, I think it violates our right to liberty–our right to make choices about what services we want to purchase. Many parts of the content of the bill make this a more egregious violation (effective public funding of abortion, directly or indirectly; forcing people into a heavily-regulated system that will further restrict options by mandating certain coverages, place demands on medical personnel, etc.). Since our Constitution, that social and governmental contract that we agree to with our citizenship, makes no provision for forcing people to purchase a good, this is a violation of our social contract, as well. It is a tyrannical imposition that would only properly be placed by a constutional amendment, IMO.

Thank You! I’ll say it again- the Health Care Bill is un-American.

 

[Arandur]

I would like to add that there is nothing “charitable” about forced contribution into a government-run service. That is a total abdication of charitable responsibility. Charity is you directly giving or helping. It is not throwing money at or having someone take your money to pay some gov’t bureacracy to take care of other people. Government is never charity. It is tax. Charity is private. One of the reasons we struggle with the spirit of charity in this country is that we continually seem to want to abdicate our personal responsibility for taking care of and loving our neighbors by instead saying that’s the government’s problem to deal with. Then we ignore the problem, because now it’s the government’s responsibility, not ours.

In this way, forced health care also damages the spirit of charity. This can be seen more extensively if we consider the Church’s teachings on the principle of subsidiarity.

 

[lcpm12]

I think more importantly than “rendering to Caesar what belongs to Caesar…” One should consider that God’s will is that which is moral and right. We follow the Earthly laws and we follow God’s law. God’s law supersedes earthly law. If it is against God’s law or Earthly Law then one must follow that it can’t be moral. That would then negate this health care bill.

 

[royal_archer]

Many years ago, a man quit his job to become a homeless bum wandering around, keeping company with the bottom dwellers of society. He had the gall to tell his fellow bums that they had worth and were part of a new society and they had the duty to care for each other. He deliberately offended those who were the defenders of the existing social norms, and denounced our cherished ideal that greed is good. He even told the story of another outcast, a Samaritan who was the precursor of universal health care. Fortunately, this wandering bum was executed to shut Him up. Unfortunately, a few of His followers have this crazy idiotic notion of social justice that ordinary people have a right, not a privilege, to health care and protections of society. This man was a dangerous radical who deserved execution; if He were alive today, He would also deserve a brutal execution.

You missed the point. That person never advocated using force to take from the working class and give to those unwilling to work. He only advocated giving from what one had rightfully received.