Why do you think forced healthcare is immoral?

[royal_archer]

Is this correct? Didn’t Jesus comfort the sick and dying that initially did not believe? Jesus did not hold it against them because they were confused and frightened. Life is a journey that you evolve in. I think you missed this one? Peace!

Please provide a reference for your assertion.

 

[PJM]

=flyingfish;6484103]A few of these threads have been popping up since the passage of the healthcare bill, and I notice quite a few of you are upset over the mandate section of the bill.

I am curious if you think that it’s also immoral for the government to tax you in any way (re: being forced to purchase something), and if it’s immoral for the government to make you follow any other laws (re: forced charity).

If you think one is okay but not the other, why?

***The answer to you’re OPQ lies in giving to a Government of at best questionable morals values, [certainly NOT Christ like] the power to MAKE LIFE AND DEATH DECESSIONS. WHO LIVES, WHO DIES, WHO GETS HELP AND WHO WILL NOT.

Further it is based on a FORCED reallocation of taxpayer income; which too is immoral.***

 

[aspawloski4th]

Please provide a reference for your assertion.

Boy am I getting sick and tired of proof being demanded for whats common knowledge!

 

[royal_archer]

Boy am I getting sick and tired of proof being demanded for whats common knowledge!

Does that mean you can’t provide the reference?

 

[aspawloski4th]

Does that mean you can’t provide the reference?

Rerference for something everyone knows?

 

[jdarcangelo]

You said “Thank God for Fox News.” Do you honestly believe the people who work for that network say what they really believe? Don’t you know that they feed the public exactly what they are told to by its owner? They, and others like them are promoting anarchy in this country. People who believe what they say are responsible for acts of terrorism against our government. Freedom of choice means having the right to free speech. Try exercising that right by reading newspapers and watching other sources of news, you will soon see what is true and what is not, don’t rely on one news station to do your thinking for you. You also need to become more informed about the new health care program before you wish everyone to go to their death without help from “Big Brother.”

 

[jdarcangelo]

You said: “I will add my voice to those who have pointed out that health care is already available to everyone through emergency services.”
My grandson (age 22) was out of work, no insurance. He went to the emergency room for treatment. He could not pay the bill. The bill was sent to his mother’s address, she can’t pay either. The hospital will absorb the bill and charge those with insurance outrageous prices to cover his, and others treatment costs. No one will pay the bill and his credit will be ruined. He isn’t getting his treatment “free.” He is paying for it, one way or another. Now he has found a job, working part-time (all that is available to him now). He has no health insurance. Now, what do you think will happen if he needs medical care again? You guessed it. For those of you sitting pretty with heath insurance, you have no conception of what people without it are up against. Get off your throne and come down to earth with the rest of us.

 

[portarica]

The government mandate requires you to buy the minimum “cadilac” plan whether you need it or not. You can not opt out of the mandated coverage.

historic insurance meant pooling resources with others who also contributed and you could balance cost, risk, and bennefits. With the new system you are force to pool with people who do not have to pay, and pay for coverage levels for them that you wouldn’t even pay for yourself.

The "Cadillac " plans are the full blown comprehensive low co pay plans.Hence the outcry against taxing them in the negotiation stages of the bill. They are not the ones that will be mandated.

Historically, health insurance became the norm because unions made it part of their bargaining process. Ironically because of that, the US was one of the few developed countries not to have universal healthcare.

And on the last point you are right, you will be forced to cover people with pre existing conditions who could not get insurance now. You will be forced to help pay for the pool of young twenties , (actually the cheapest group to insure) and I will be apparently paying for better coverage for you. I don’t mind doing that because I assume you are one of Jesus’ children.

Peace

 

[portarica]

You said: “I will add my voice to those who have pointed out that health care is already available to everyone through emergency services.”
My grandson (age 22) was out of work, no insurance. He went to the emergency room for treatment. He could not pay the bill. The bill was sent to his mother’s address, she can’t pay either. The hospital will absorb the bill and charge those with insurance outrageous prices to cover his, and others treatment costs. No one will pay the bill and his credit will be ruined. He isn’t getting his treatment “free.” He is paying for it, one way or another. Now he has found a job, working part-time (all that is available to him now). He has no health insurance. Now, what do you think will happen if he needs medical care again? You guessed it. For those of you sitting pretty with heath insurance, you have no conception of what people without it are up against. Get off your throne and come down to earth with the rest of us.

Actually the insured will not be absorbing the extra cost, their fees are already negotiated with the hospitals and provider groups.

The cost will be passed on to the uninsured who pay more per visit than the insurance companies pay and to the governmental entities that subsidize hospitals.

And yes his credit will be ruined.

Peace

 

[Arandur]

You said: “I will add my voice to those who have pointed out that health care is already available to everyone through emergency services.”
My grandson (age 22) was out of work, no insurance. He went to the emergency room for treatment. He could not pay the bill. The bill was sent to his mother’s address, she can’t pay either. The hospital will absorb the bill and charge those with insurance outrageous prices to cover his, and others treatment costs. No one will pay the bill and his credit will be ruined. He isn’t getting his treatment “free.” He is paying for it, one way or another. Now he has found a job, working part-time (all that is available to him now). He has no health insurance. Now, what do you think will happen if he needs medical care again? You guessed it. For those of you sitting pretty with heath insurance, you have no conception of what people without it are up against. Get off your throne and come down to earth with the rest of us.

I never claimed the system is efficient or is the best, just that it is false to claim that people cannot get emergency health coverage in the current system. They can, regardless of how many times they need it and can’t pay. Yes, they don’t get all the services of those with insurance, nor should they–there simply aren’t enough resources to do that. But they aren’t being denied service now. That’s a distortion that needed to be cleared up in order to have a more competent discussion.

I am not part of an employer’s plan. I buy insurance on my own. A 22yo could easily get cheap “student” coverage (when I bought that 7 years ago it was like $20 a month; you can save that much money really easily). I can buy high deductible coverage for about $40 a month now. Individual plans are not really that expensive. Even reasonably low deductibles with prescription coverage and doctor’s visits cost me (at 28–one of those “young people” who would otherwise not have coverage because we don’t want to buy it) $75 a month.

I know plenty of people who spend more on their car insurance for their fancy new cars (whose payments are even more expensive) than they pay on health insurance–and they whine and complain about the cost of health care. Those people need to suck it up and get their priorities straight. The very fact that, for most people, their cars cost more (are more important to them) than their health care says to me that health care for most is pretty affordable.

If people would save up an HSA or emergency savings to cover a high deductible, high deductible plans even for those with pre-existing conditions often don’t cost much. But that would require people to be more responsible with their money. People would rather buy more house than they can afford and run up tens of thousands of dollars in student loans, car loans, and credit card bills than pay for health care. Priorities.

There are an unfortunate few who have expensive conditions requiring regular treatment who cannot pay. For them we already have Medicare and Medicaid. Those systems need to be fixed, not broken further by robbing them of funding or forcing health care professionals to accept even less payment for their services through them, thus encouraging them to stop accepting those patients.

 

[Arandur]

You said “Thank God for Fox News.” Do you honestly believe the people who work for that network say what they really believe? Don’t you know that they feed the public exactly what they are told to by its owner?

Most of us DO get our news from multiple sources. Fox News is a resources like any other. They chose to cover some stories that the other networks decide not to cover, because those other networks do exactly what you blame Fox News for doing: “they feed the public exactly what they are told to…” or what they believe in. The other news networks have been so demonstrably biased in headline titles, what news they decide to cover, and how they cover it, that alternatives are necessary just to get the whole picture.

They, and others like them are promoting anarchy in this country. People who believe what they say are responsible for acts of terrorism against our government.

Oh really? How so? What acts of terrorism are these? Talk about being blind and bearing false witness! Do not spread such slander and false accusation. This seems borne of prejudice, bigotry towards other viewpoints, and lies. Do not be part of it.

You also need to become more informed about the new health care program before you wish everyone to go to their death without help from “Big Brother.”

What makes you think the people holding opposing viewpoints aren’t well informed? They’ve certainly talked about many of the detailed points. And “wishing everyone to go to their death?” Please.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I never claimed the system is efficient or is the best, just that it is false to claim that people cannot get emergency health coverage in the current system. They can, regardless of how many times they need it and can’t pay. Yes, they don’t get all the services of those with insurance, nor should they–there simply aren’t enough resources to do that. But they aren’t being denied service now. That’s a distortion that needed to be cleared up in order to have a more competent discussion.

I am not part of an employer’s plan. I buy insurance on my own. A 22yo could easily get cheap “student” coverage (when I bought that 7 years ago it was like $20 a month; you can save that much money really easily). I can buy high deductible coverage for about $40 a month now. Individual plans are not really that expensive. Even reasonably low deductibles with prescription coverage and doctor’s visits cost me (at 28–one of those “young people” who would otherwise not have coverage because we don’t want to buy it) $75 a month.

I know plenty of people who spend more on their car insurance for their fancy new cars (whose payments are even more expensive) than they pay on health insurance–and they whine and complain about the cost of health care. Those people need to suck it up and get their priorities straight. The very fact that, for most people, their cars cost more (are more important to them) than their health care says to me that health care for most is pretty affordable.

If people would save up an HSA or emergency savings to cover a high deductible, high deductible plans even for those with pre-existing conditions often don’t cost much. But that would require people to be more responsible with their money. People would rather buy more house than they can afford and run up tens of thousands of dollars in student loans, car loans, and credit card bills than pay for health care. Priorities.

There are an unfortunate few who have expensive conditions requiring regular treatment who cannot pay. For them we already have Medicare and Medicaid. Those systems need to be fixed, not broken further by robbing them of funding or forcing health care professionals to accept even less payment for their services through them, thus encouraging them to stop accepting those patients.

On the comment about cars, what you mention isn’t most people. I drive a 1996 Dodge Intrepid that is as minimally equipped as they came that model year with 123,000 mostly city miles on it. With certain circuits in the car normally powered by turning on the ignition switch hot wired to the battery because that ignition switch doesn’t work propperly and needs replacing which I can’t afford. Anyone who calls that luxery is a couple tacos short a comboplate. Don’t talk down to me about priorities!

 

[Arandur]

On the comment about cars, what you mention isn’t most people. I drive a 1996 Dodge Intrepid that is as minimally equipped as they came that model year with 123,000 mostly city miles on it. With certain circuits in the car normally powered by turning on the ignition switch hot wired to the battery because that ignition switch doesn’t work propperly and needs replacing which I can’t afford. Anyone who calls that luxery is a couple tacos short a comboplate. Don’t talk down to me about priorities!

I wasn’t accusing anyone here specifically. How could I. I don’t know anything about you. I clearly said “I know people” and “those people.” Please don’t personalize and project. And unless you have a statistic, I don’t know that it’s NOT “most people,” or at least a large minority. Fact is, even aside from my anecdotal experience, many Americans, even many at or near the “poverty level,” rack up large car debts on new or nearly new cars, have high car payments and high insurance costs. Not to mention credit card bills. My brother is a theology teacher and has worked at both inner city and rural Catholic schools that have had many struggling families who don’t even pay tuition–yet they drive surprisingly good cars and their young children have iPods or iPhones and costly cell phone plans, wii’s and Xboxes and Playstations (often more than one system), etc.

Point is, many Americans (not necessarily you–we’re talking about a societal problem here) have their priorities out of whack and then complain about the cost of health care–and want to force other people to pay for their health care through government. How is that moral or fair?

 

[Ed_CA]

On the health care issue, Americans are confronted with two types of Nazism and communism. Firstly, the present system forces extra health care insurance premiums down the throats of Americans for the uninsured emergency room visits. Secondly, the new Nazi-communist government health care law is forcing everybody to have health care insurance. On top of it, state governments ram the purchase of automobile insurance down the throats of drivers, and, to add insult to injury, forces all drivers and passengers to wear seat belts. We are not even free from the free enterprise system: banks and mortgage company force the purchase of fire and flood insurance down the throats of home owners. Americans are faced with tyranny from not only the federal , state, and local governments, but even from the free enterprise system itself.

 

[royal_archer]

You said “Thank God for Fox News.” Do you honestly believe the people who work for that network say what they really believe? Don’t you know that they feed the public exactly what they are told to by its owner? They, and others like them are promoting anarchy in this country. People who believe what they say are responsible for acts of terrorism against our government. Freedom of choice means having the right to free speech. Try exercising that right by reading newspapers and watching other sources of news, you will soon see what is true and what is not, don’t rely on one news station to do your thinking for you. You also need to become more informed about the new health care program before you wish everyone to go to their death without help from “Big Brother.”

using that logic we could blame MSNBC and other leftist pseudo news outlets for 9/11.

 

[royal_archer]

You said: “I will add my voice to those who have pointed out that health care is already available to everyone through emergency services.”
My grandson (age 22) was out of work, no insurance. He went to the emergency room for treatment. He could not pay the bill. The bill was sent to his mother’s address, she can’t pay either. The hospital will absorb the bill and charge those with insurance outrageous prices to cover his, and others treatment costs. No one will pay the bill and his credit will be ruined. He isn’t getting his treatment “free.” He is paying for it, one way or another. Now he has found a job, working part-time (all that is available to him now). He has no health insurance. Now, what do you think will happen if he needs medical care again? You guessed it. For those of you sitting pretty with heath insurance, you have no conception of what people without it are up against. Get off your throne and come down to earth with the rest of us.

I HAVE been with out insurance. I realized that I need to be responsible for myself and worked my way into a job with insurance.

Those who use the system. However, opening the gate and making it easier to manipulate the system does not solve the problem.

A real solution would be to reduce excessive regulation which artificially drives up costs.

 

[royal_archer]

The "Cadillac " plans are the full blown comprehensive low co pay plans.Hence the outcry against taxing them in the negotiation stages of the bill. They are not the ones that will be mandated.

Historically, health insurance became the norm because unions made it part of their bargaining process. Ironically because of that, the US was one of the few developed countries not to have universal healthcare.

And on the last point you are right, you will be forced to cover people with pre existing conditions who could not get insurance now. You will be forced to help pay for the pool of young twenties , (actually the cheapest group to insure) and I will be apparently paying for better coverage for you. I don’t mind doing that because I assume you are one of Jesus’ children.

Peace

The government mandated plans will be cadilac plans because they will be so excessive that they will have to force people to buy them under penalty of law. This is why so many people are upset.

I don’t want you paying my health insurance and consider it highly insultiung that you accuse me of not having the capability to take care of myself and my family.

 

[royal_archer]

Actually the insured will not be absorbing the extra cost, their fees are already negotiated with the hospitals and provider groups.

The cost will be passed on to the uninsured who pay more per visit than the insurance companies pay and to the governmental entities that subsidize hospitals.

And yes his credit will be ruined.

Peace

Our costs are already going up and will soar at the next contract negotiation point.

 

[kymburrrleee]

As the new healthcare law stands, it is undoubtedly immoral as it provides for tax-payer funded abortions. If it didn’t, then Planned Parenthood wouldn’t be praising it so much. Abortion is an intrinsic, non-negotiable, and grave evil, so no matter how much social good the new healthcare law may or may not provide, it does not trump the evil done by abortion. Minus abortion, euthanasia, or anything that threatens the dignity of life, I’m not sure that government mandated healthcare is a “moral/immoral” issue in the sense that it is not under the purview of God’s natural law than it is just a matter of man’s opinion on how the government should act/how much authority the government should have in the best interest of the country.

That said, if this healthcare law wasn’t such a threat to the most vulnerable of lives (i.e. the unborn and the elderly), I’m still not sure how I would feel about it. I’m a 24 years old, who’s graduated from college and has been working for 3 years now. I am still currently paying off loans and credit card debts from college as well as helping my single-parent mom take care of my brother and sister who are still in school. My mom is one of the “fortunate” california state employees who got furloughed. My mom’s income just covers most of the mortgage. I pay the rest, all the house bills, car payments for myself and my brother (nothing fancy- a used civic and a scion), car insurance, etc. Although that takes out most of my paycheck, in attempts of being a good steward and giving back what belongs to God, I still tithe 10% of my net paycheck to Catholic charities and organizations. It takes a lot of sacrifice, and I give up a lot of fun and luxury that my peers have. The cost of living is going up, and with my mom’s pay and mine, we’re making less. I already only take home little more than 50% of my gross pay after taxes. I’m not sure if my family and I can survive if they take out more taxes or we get hurt by a ripple effect of businesses passing increased costs down to the things we buy out of necessity. I just pray and hope that in this attempt of providing healthcare for all, my family doesn’t end up losing our home, unable to pay for just everyday expenses, or just get further buried in debt I’m trying so hard to pay off. I love to help others when I can, but I’m still not sure whether or not the way the healthcare law as it is written is the best way.

 

[aspawloski4th]

The government mandated plans will be cadilac plans because they will be so excessive that they will have to force people to buy them under penalty of law. This is why so many people are upset.

I don’t want you paying my health insurance and consider it highly insultiung that you accuse me of not having the capability to take care of myself and my family.

Sounds like pagan tribal Germanic talk to me. Spoken like a Saxon.