Why do you think forced healthcare is immoral?

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On the health care issue, Americans are confronted with two types of Nazism and communism. Firstly, the present system forces extra health care insurance premiums down the throats of Americans for the uninsured emergency room visits.
That could easily be fixed by eliminating the regulations which force medical institutions from acting as slaves to every indigent person who chooses not to pay their bills.
Secondly, the new Nazi-communist government health care law is forcing everybody to have health care insurance.
Actually not all Americans will be forced to buy insurance those who choose not to work are exempted.
On top of it, state governments ram the purchase of automobile insurance down the throats of drivers, and, to add insult to injury, forces all drivers and passengers to wear seat belts.
Health insurance only impacts you. auto insurance is to protect the people you put in danger by opperating a two ton killing machine on the public roads. You are not required by the government to have insurance for your own car.
We are not even free from the free enterprise system: banks and mortgage company force the purchase of fire and flood insurance down the throats of home owners. Americans are faced with tyranny from not only the federal , state, and local governments, but even from the free enterprise system itself.
Actually you are free to buy a home with out insurance. however when the bank loans you money they make an investment in you and your home. they have every right to only make that investment when it is of reduced risk; your insurance reduces that risk. This is a mutually agreed to contract and not an involuntary mandate.
 
The cost of living is going up, and with my mom’s pay and mine, we’re making less. I already only take home little more than 50% of my gross pay after taxes. I’m not sure if my family and I can survive if they take out more taxes or we get hurt by a ripple effect of businesses passing increased costs down to the things we buy out of necessity. I just pray and hope that in this attempt of providing healthcare for all, my family doesn’t end up losing our home, unable to pay for just everyday expenses, or just get further buried in debt I’m trying so hard to pay off. I love to help others when I can, but I’m still not sure whether or not the way the healthcare law as it is written is the best way.
Your absoutely right.

My insurance already went up by about 25 per week. We still haven’t had our rates adjusted for the the extra cost of medicine for retirees or the cost of the bulk of this bill. But already, we are having to cut back on many things we normally buy locally. I am in the same possition as many of my coworkers who will all be cutting back. that means that the luxury businesses (fast food/ restaurants, lawn care, bowling alley, etc.) will all loose business and that will result in lay offs and if those businesses can’t maintain a minimum amount of business, they will shut down. I make sure I let people I deal with in the retail sector know that I am reducing my spending because of the Obama health care “taxes”.
 
You said: “I will add my voice to those who have pointed out that health care is already available to everyone through emergency services.”
My grandson (age 22) was out of work, no insurance. He went to the emergency room for treatment. He could not pay the bill. The bill was sent to his mother’s address, she can’t pay either. The hospital will absorb the bill and charge those with insurance outrageous prices to cover his, and others treatment costs. No one will pay the bill and his credit will be ruined. He isn’t getting his treatment “free.” He is paying for it, one way or another. Now he has found a job, working part-time (all that is available to him now). He has no health insurance. Now, what do you think will happen if he needs medical care again? You guessed it. For those of you sitting pretty with heath insurance, you have no conception of what people without it are up against. Get off your throne and come down to earth with the rest of us.
:mad:
Like the poster said, nothing is for free. Sending people w/o healthcare to the emergency room for say a cold…where the hospital charges approximately $1200.00. This is paid by people like me who have health insurance and pay for those who don’t., I am blessed and reallly don’t mind paying, just not 1200.00 for a visit w/ the dr. This is without the healthcare bill. With the healthcare bill, the charge at the Dr.'s office will be like the rest of us because there is a outlet for people who need medical attention to recieve it. One emergency room does not fit all and is mostly overkill. THis is where the healthcare bill levels off the charges,

Initally,Wallmart exploited this very loophole by sending all thier low end workers to the emergency rooms. They intentionally gave the majority of thier workers say 34 hours, just under full time 35 hours, which enabled them to not be required to offer a healthcare plan for thier workers. That is why when they first arrived on the scene they made millions and no one could figure out why??? . UNTIL workers complained and sued.

Eventually the magic formula of Wallmart for becoming profitable was to force the US goverment to pick up the healthcare of their workers by default. Wallmart was becoming profitable by getting the American people to foot their healthcare costs. Nice hug? They were sued and now are forced to offer healthcare to their workerd and rightfully so. So the healthcare bill is as it should be… for all to recieve medical attention when it is required. Share the love and know who is doing what to whom.:cool:.
 
Like the poster said, nothing is for free. Sending people w/o healthcare to the emergency room for say a cold…where the hospital charges approximately $1200.00. This is paid by people like me who have health insurance and pay for those who don’t., I am blessed and reallly don’t mind paying, just not 1200.00 for a visit w/ the dr. This is without the healthcare bill. With the healthcare bill, the charge at the Dr.'s office will be like the rest of us because there is a outlet for people who need medical attention to recieve it. One emergency room does not fit all and is mostly overkill. THis is where the healthcare bill levels off the charges,

Initally,Wallmart exploited this very loophole by sending all thier low end workers to the emergency rooms. They intentionally gave the majority of thier workers say 34 hours, just under full time 35 hours, which enabled them to not be required to offer a healthcare plan for thier workers. That is why when they first arrived on the scene they made millions and no one could figure out why??? . UNTIL workers complained and sued.

Eventually the magic formula of Wallmart for becoming profitable was to force the US goverment to pick up the healthcare of their workers by default. Wallmart was becoming profitable by getting the American people to foot their healthcare costs. Nice hug? They were sued and now are forced to offer healthcare to their workerd and rightfully so. So the healthcare bill is as it should be… for all to recieve medical attention when it is required. Share the love and know who is doing what to whom.:cool:.
First, why are people going to the emergency room for a cold instead of just going to the pharmacy picking up some medicine and going to be?? Maybe because excessive regulations force people to get a doctors permission prior to getting medicine.

By the way, there are many people who welcome jobs with out insurance especially when there are so many dual working parrents. If one parrent has medical coverage it would be nice if the other could get better pay in lieu of redundant medical coverage. There are also a lot of retirees, and students who work there who also do not need the coverage.
 
Your absoutely right.

My insurance already went up by about 25 per week. We still haven’t had our rates adjusted for the the extra cost of medicine for retirees or the cost of the bulk of this bill. But already, we are having to cut back on many things we normally buy locally. I am in the same possition as many of my coworkers who will all be cutting back. that means that the luxury businesses (fast food/ restaurants, lawn care, bowling alley, etc.) will all loose business and that will result in lay offs and if those businesses can’t maintain a minimum amount of business, they will shut down. I make sure I let people I deal with in the retail sector know that I am reducing my spending because of the Obama health care “taxes”.
Bowling alleys and fast food joints are luxuries? What a world!
 
On the health care issue, Americans are confronted with two types of Nazism and communism. Firstly, the present system forces extra health care insurance premiums down the throats of Americans for the uninsured emergency room visits. Secondly, the new Nazi-communist government health care law is forcing everybody to have health care insurance. On top of it, state governments ram the purchase of automobile insurance down the throats of drivers, and, to add insult to injury, forces all drivers and passengers to wear seat belts. We are not even free from the free enterprise system: banks and mortgage company force the purchase of fire and flood insurance down the throats of home owners. Americans are faced with tyranny from not only the federal , state, and local governments, but even from the free enterprise system itself.
You cannot compare health insurance to car insurance or property insurance. They are quite different.

First, car insurance and property insurance are things you only need to carry if you CHOOSE to operate or own those pieces of property.

Second, these insurances are actually a protection for OTHER people FROM you. They are not mandating that you must choose a form of protection for yourself.

This is evident in that the only required forms of car insurance are liability and property damage. This is to protect the people YOU may injure when you cause an accident, making sure that there are resources available to help cover the damages you cause to person or property.

It is similar with forms of property insurance: liability to cover injury to others when you are negligent, and replacement coverage for damages that you must purchase to protect the investment of the lender who is lending you money. Nowhere I know of are you required to purchase property replacement coverage for yourself–it is only to cover the mortgage lender.

Health insurance is a personal coverage only. Forcing someone to choose how they want to cover themselves is a violation of freedom. Requiring someone to carry protection for others against what you might do to them or their property interests (the money they lent) is a perfectly acceptable form of a contract when you choose to acquire or operate those things that may cause such injury to others.
 
With the healthcare bill, the charge at the Dr.'s office will be like the rest of us because there is a outlet for people who need medical attention to recieve it. One emergency room does not fit all and is mostly overkill. THis is where the healthcare bill levels off the charges,

So the healthcare bill is as it should be… for all to recieve medical attention when it is required. Share the love and know who is doing what to whom.:cool:.
Is there? What’s different in the health care bill than now? People can still go to a doctor’s office and still will if they are responsible. Why would you incur the expense to yourself of going to an emergency room if you can go to a doctor’s office and be charged $50-$150 for the visit, instead of 3-10 times that at an emergency room? You can do this right now.

Since losing employer coverage and taking out just an emergency coverage plan (no copay benefits for doctor’s visits), I very easily found (first place I looked) a doctor’s office nearby where they charge $50 a visit, flat fee. Done. That’s barely more than standard $20-30 copays for expensive plans. It’s cheaper to save $100 a month by not paying for the expensive copay and drug coverage plans (that’s $1200 a year), b/c I’m probably going to only visit the doctor a few times a year, if that, and get some moderate prescriptions, if any. Most likely not $1200 worth. For more serious things I’ve got the affordable high deductible coverage.

This would apply to ANYONE. Do the same thing–go to a doctor’s office, Minute Clinic, or urgent care facility and pay straight up, and you’re likely to be spending less, anyway, than paying for health insurance with copays and prescription drug coverage. If you have an emergency, that’s what the emergency room is for, whether you have high deductible insurance or not.

Problem is, it seems the people we’re talking about (who are abusing the emergency room) just aren’t bothering to be responsible. They’re apparently not taking the time or just not caring to investigate their other options. Do you really think Obamacare will change that behavior?

Even if it does, all Obamacare is likely to do is encourage more people to use (demand) more of a limited resource. The biggest problem here is the whole economic law of supply and demand. If health care services were in sufficient or excessive supply of the demand, prices would not be rising–they would be falling. We have a crisis in availability of nurses and doctors because our supply is already insufficient for the demand, thus the rapidly rising prices.

What do you think will happen when we suddenly try to vastly increase the demand without doing anything to increase the supply? Economic law is quite clear on this: price will go up (probably dramatically!). So if it does work in getting more people to use services, then it will only make the problem much worse.

The only way to control prices when demand keeps outstripping supply is to ration service (forced reduction of demand). And since Obamacare is also trying to fix prices by paying doctors less for the same services, it is likely to reduce the supply of health services even more because fewer people will work or will be able to operate a practice that does anything but lose money. Thus more hospitals and private practices will close.

This will increase the pressure even more to ration health care. It’s simply inescapable. This is why you can’t try to force the free market by chaining it to government bureaucracy. If you take away people’s free choice to purchase or not to purchase various goods and services, you destroy the market entirely, and any good the free market was able to provide in terms of increasing supply and lowering price and innovating will all disappear.

Whenever you can reasonably predict the consequences of an action, taking an action that causes more harm than good is immoral, especially if the matter is serious–like health care. Thus, since this bill will so obviously, because of simple economic laws, lead to higher prices OR rationed care, it is surely immoral.
 
If it wasn’t for a certain bowling alley I would of never met my wife!
Were you working there or partaking in the entertainment? if it was the latter, why were you spending money for entertainment when there are people with out health insurance?
 
Were you working there or partaking in the entertainment? if it was the latter, why were you spending money for entertainment when there are people with out health insurance?
It was 1991. I had only one date in my whole life time and I was 23 then. 2 friends set me up with the second date I ever had in my life. I spent a whopping 10 dollars that night. That bowling alley’s name is the clique which their patron are mostly the Polish. Most Polish like to bowl around here. With a big Polish community here in Grand Rapids, I’d recomend not coming around here if you are for closing bowling alleys based on them not being a neccesity.
 
It was 1991. I had only one date in my whole life time and I was 23 then. 2 friends set me up with the second date I ever had in my life. I spent a whopping 10 dollars that night. That bowling alley’s name is the clique which their patron are mostly the Polish. Most Polish like to bowl around here. With a big Polish community here in Grand Rapids, I’d recomend not coming around here if you are for closing bowling alleys based on them not being a neccesity.
I have no problem with bowling alleys or any other luxury if you can afford them with the money you rightfully earned. I just can’t afford it with the excessive new taxes.
 
Are you implying they are necessities?

Some of us were not so spoiled.
Bowling alley and fast food places are commonly regarded as “prole” (an antonym for “luxury” and upper class.)

According to this book review:
Bowling is very low class. “If the upper class have yachts, what do proles have? Bowling. If you want to maintain upper status, it’s important that you never, never go bowling.”
 
You said “Thank God for Fox News.” Do you honestly believe the people who work for that network say what they really believe? Don’t you know that they feed the public exactly what they are told to by its owner? They, and others like them are promoting anarchy in this country. People who believe what they say are responsible for acts of terrorism against our government. Freedom of choice means having the right to free speech. Try exercising that right by reading newspapers and watching other sources of news, you will soon see what is true and what is not, don’t rely on one news station to do your thinking for you. You also need to become more informed about the new health care program before you wish everyone to go to their death without help from “Big Brother.”
🤷
America is polarized by Fox News, talk radio, etc. Why??
 
America is an angry, polarized country. Why? Certain unscrupulous corporations want to divert attention away from the fact they own local, state, and the federal governments. The best defense in protecting your self-interest is an excellent offense.
Americans complain about the large national debt, but why does the tax law allows so many loop holes for multi-national corporations to avoid taxes. Why is “trickle- down economics” an article of faith? Why do corporate farms force feed poultry, cattle, swine, etc wading ankle deep in their manure, and Americans wonder why health care costs increase? The corporate farms have huge taxpayer subsidies for grain, milk, and poultry. These subsidizes are so good that American corporate farmers dump cheap grain in Mexico and Central America, and guess what? We have illegal workers coming to the US for work. Now the big corporate farmers, slaughter house knowingly hire illegal workers and keep them in their place by threats with the INS. Why are not those who hire illegal workers fined and sent to prison—is it because they are part of the power structure? It appears to be these poor workers who are criminals.
Who really paid for all the advertisements about the threats of big government, death panels and health care being forced down the throats of Americans? Now the corporations who caused the WORLD WIDE economic mess are complaining about stifling government regulations, that the executives deserved obscene compensations because they are like super movie stars or athletes. The Supreme Court has allowed corporations to spend unrestricted amounts of money on campaigns as if these poor down trodden corporations did not own enough of our government.
That is why I wrote thank God for Fox News!!
 
Bowling alley and fast food places are commonly regarded as “prole” (an antonym for “luxury” and upper class.)

According to this book review:
well some of us can’t afford the lower class luxuries, much less the more expensive luxuries.

From websters: a: something adding to pleasure or comfort but not absolutely necessary <one of life’s luxuries> b : an indulgence in something that provides pleasure, satisfaction, or ease <had the luxury of rejecting a handful of job offers — Terri Minsky>
 
America is polarized by Fox News, talk radio, etc. Why??
I never understood it because Fox is nearly as liberal as the other stations. There commentators are a bit more moderate in their commentary but not much.
 
America is an angry, polarized country. Why? Certain unscrupulous corporations want to divert attention away from the fact they own local, state, and the federal governments. The best defense in protecting your self-interest is an excellent offense.
Americans complain about the large national debt, but why does the tax law allows so many loop holes for multi-national corporations to avoid taxes. Why is “trickle- down economics” an article of faith? Why do corporate farms force feed poultry, cattle, swine, etc wading ankle deep in their manure, and Americans wonder why health care costs increase? The corporate farms have huge taxpayer subsidies for grain, milk, and poultry. These subsidizes are so good that American corporate farmers dump cheap grain in Mexico and Central America, and guess what? We have illegal workers coming to the US for work. Now the big corporate farmers, slaughter house knowingly hire illegal workers and keep them in their place by threats with the INS. Why are not those who hire illegal workers fined and sent to prison—is it because they are part of the power structure? It appears to be these poor workers who are criminals.
Who really paid for all the advertisements about the threats of big government, death panels and health care being forced down the throats of Americans? Now the corporations who caused the WORLD WIDE economic mess are complaining about stifling government regulations, that the executives deserved obscene compensations because they are like super movie stars or athletes. The Supreme Court has allowed corporations to spend unrestricted amounts of money on campaigns as if these poor down trodden corporations did not own enough of our government.
That is why I wrote thank God for Fox News!!
If we limmited the federal government to the powers we entrusted to them in the constitution, we wouldn’t have these abuses.
 
well some of us can’t afford the lower class luxuries, much less the more expensive luxuries.

From websters: a: something adding to pleasure or comfort but not absolutely necessary <one of life’s luxuries> b : an indulgence in something that provides pleasure, satisfaction, or ease <had the luxury of rejecting a handful of job offers — Terri Minsky>
I commonly use the first definition:
a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity: Gold cufflinks were a luxury not allowed for in his budget.
2.
free or habitual indulgence in or enjoyment of comforts and pleasures in addition to those necessary for a reasonable standard of well-being: a life of luxury on the french Riviera.
3.
a means of ministering to such indulgence or enjoyment: This travel plan gives you the luxury of choosing which countries you can visit.
4.
a pleasure out of the ordinary allowed to oneself: the luxury of an extra piece of the cake.
5.
a foolish or worthless form of self-indulgence: the luxury of self-pity.
dictionary.reference.com/browse/luxury

I guess if one is very poor, then going to McDonald’s every week would be considered a luxury by the fourth definition. But the first definition implies a sense of exorbitance in common applications like “luxury suite” at a baseball game.
 
I commonly use the first definition:

dictionary.reference.com/browse/luxury

I guess if one is very poor, then going to McDonald’s every week would be considered a luxury by the fourth definition. But the first definition implies a sense of exorbitance in common applications like “luxury suite” at a baseball game.
It is a matter of perspective. Those of limmited means would consider Mc Donalds and bowling alleys a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity. Those who are spoiled may not.
 
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