Why do you think forced healthcare is immoral?

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Every human being deserves to have their basic needs met - period! Every Country should have systems in place to ensure that it’s citizens are having their basic needs met. It is just that simple.

In the Canadian province I live in, people on social assistance (welfare) who are capable of working are expected to work. They receive help to secure and hold appropriate employment. If they don’t earn enough to meet the basic needs of their families, they continue to receive top-up benefits from the Province. (Rent allowance, Day care benefits, dental and extended health care benefits etc.) There are other incentives to make working while on assistance worthwhile. Children grow up in an environment where parents work everyday, rather than remaining at home collecting benefits. Many children from poor families do very well. My own family is a perfect example.

I work and pay between 25 to 50 percent of my total net income toward taxes. I don’t feel that I am hard done by, even though money is collected from my paycheque to provide education, health care and basic needs of life to all of Canada’s citizens, myself included.

American’s often refer to Canada as a socialist country, yet I have never heard another Canadian referring to our country as being socialist. If Canada is in fact a socialist country - I certainly don’t find it a bad system to live under.
The problem here is that there are a large number of people who are being paid to not work. If all put in an honnest days work and they were to remove the excessive regulations that force up medical costs and stop mandating heroic measures for those who can not afford them, many more would be able to afford basic medical care.
 
I’m bowing out of this thread. The mentality on this thread disturbs me so much I can’t sleep at night. It makes me so upset that I need to just walk away and pray.
 
I’m bowing out of this thread. The mentality on this thread disturbs me so much I can’t sleep at night. It makes me so upset that I need to just walk away and pray.
Well we got the healthcare passed anyway. I think of it this way. Between taxing for healthcare and a father of several children loosing his home on the account of an anurysim. The nationalizing of healthcare is by far the lesser of 2 evils. A family loosing thier home for some medical is downright evil, and satanic and anyway to prevent that from ever happeneing again is ok with me.
 
Well we got the healthcare passed anyway. I think of it this way. Between taxing for healthcare and a father of several children loosing his home on the account of an anurysim. The nationalizing of healthcare is by far the lesser of 2 evils. A family loosing thier home for some medical is downright evil, and satanic and anyway to prevent that from ever happeneing again is ok with me.
But do you also care about the thousands who will loose their homes because they can’t afford their additional health care costs? Or the thousands who will loose their jobs and their homes because of the resources sucked out of the ecconomy because of the additional burden on the working class and their employers?
 
But do you also care about the thousands who will loose their homes because they can’t afford their additional health care costs? Or the thousands who will loose their jobs and their homes because of the resources sucked out of the ecconomy because of the additional burden on the working class and their employers?
You think it will happen , I don’t. Denmark does very well with nationized healthcare, so does Swiisstzerland.
 
And unlike Canadian citizens, we don’t want to be told we must stay inside our our Country for six months each year or lose our insurance.
I don’t see the requirement to remain in Canada for 6 months every year in order to qualify for health benefits as a hardship. Our country’s health coverage is paid for with the collection of taxes. People who live and work in other countries are not paying their share of the taxes. It’s a rule that is in place to protect to viability of the coverage. If we choose to live elsewhere, no one tells us we can’t. The rule is a necessary one. Otherwise, people could live elsewhere, not contribute their share and come back to Canada for treatment. Blessings
 
I don’t see the requirement to remain in Canada for 6 months every year in order to qualify for health benefits as a hardship. Our country’s health coverage is paid for with the collection of taxes. People who live and work in other countries are not paying their share of the taxes. It’s a rule that is in place to protect to viability of the coverage. If we choose to live elsewhere, no one tells us we can’t. The rule is a necessary one. Otherwise, people could live elsewhere, not contribute their share and come back to Canada for treatment. Blessings
We would not have the problems we have here if it were not for the large volumes of people who want to use our system but did not pay in. Maybe if we denied treatment to those who did not have full time jobs we could afford to give free health care to those who do contribute.
 
We would not have the problems we have here if it were not for the large volumes of people who want to use our system but did not pay in. Maybe if we denied treatment to those who did not have full time jobs we could afford to give free health care to those who do contribute.
And those who would die if that took place from no treatment would be on the soul of those who think like you.
 
Well we got the healthcare passed anyway. I think of it this way. Between taxing for healthcare and a father of several children loosing his home on the account of an anurysim. The nationalizing of healthcare is by far the lesser of 2 evils. A family loosing thier home for some medical is downright evil, and satanic and anyway to prevent that from ever happeneing again is ok with me.
Wow, do you realize what you just said? You just claimed that the ends justify the means. There are few more un-Catholic philosophies or ones more solidly condemned than that!

“We got healthcare passed anyway”–by forcing it through in a very un-democratic way. Even many people in favor of the bill were very much against the manner in which it was passed. 2000+ pages that no one read or had a chance to discuss the development of, amendments not even considered, an effective referendum on the bill in elections and the polls showing that the American people were against it, etc etc.

So the first evil–and evil precedent here–was that the end of passing the bill justified the means (by any means necessary). That, my friend, is a recipe for dictatorship. I can see terrible evils opened up by such folly. That is the failure and tyranny of government right there, as has been demonstrated countless times in human history. Are we immune in this country? Why?

The second evil is the insidious assumption so many of you proponents here make that health care MUST BE “nationalized” in order to make health care affordable to everyone. This is an assumption, followed through by your consistent positions and those of your political advocates, that brooks no debate, condemns discussion and opposing viewpoints, and is the very death of reason and the pursuit of truth. Again, terrible evils can be encouraged and opened up by such folly.

The third evil is the actual bill itself, which the CBO has projected will actually increase the cost of health care. Which it supposedly does by simply forcing people to pay for health care coverage–brilliant. I could have told you that. 30 million people don’t have health care? Tell them to buy it! That’s basically the core of what the bill does. How does that help?

The bill supports the creation of local, even school health care clinics that are really just thinly-veiled abortion clinics. It vastly increases demand while reducing supply, which requires either an increase in costs or another method for controlling demand–rationing. This is an absolute, inescapable fact of economics.

In the end, the bill itself will cause only more misery, less access to health care, increase costs indefinitely, destroy prosperity (leading more into poverty) by increasing our liabilities and destroying wealth, increase abortions, increase inefficient bureaucratic control, etc etc.

The manner of passing the bill was evil. The arguments (or lack thereof) ramming through the bill and demonizing opponents was evil. And the content of the bill included evils and will cause evil effects. There are evil consequences and potential consequences all around. All for the unlikely promise of (tainted) goods.

It’s a lose-lose-lose scenario.
 
Every human being deserves to have their basic needs met - period! Every Country should have systems in place to ensure that it’s citizens are having their basic needs met. It is just that simple…
American’s often refer to Canada as a socialist country, yet I have never heard another Canadian referring to our country as being socialist. If Canada is in fact a socialist country - I certainly don’t find it a bad system to live under.
Here’s an example of what the approach of “progressive taxation” is doing for us in the U.S., as food for thought:
"Income tax day, April 15, 2010, now divides Americans into two almost equal classes: those who pay for the services provided by government and those who don’t. The percentage of Americans who **will pay no federal income taxes at all for 2009 has risen to 47%. **

That isn’t the worst of it. The bottom 40% not only pay no income tax, but the government sends them cash or benefits financed by the taxes dutifully paid by those who do pay income tax. "
eagleforum.org/psr/2010/may10/psrmay10.html

Tell me how this is sustainable? Take money from those who produce and encourage those who don’t. The disproportions here have been rising consistently for years. We have been increasing government dependence and the worship of the government as an idol of salvation. We have been decreasing human liberty and dignity.

In the words of William J.H. Boetcker:
“You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away people’s initiative and independence.
You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.”

These should be self-evident. Do I really need to defend them?

Consider this also, from the same source as above:
"…the overwhelming reason for big government’s extravagant spending, which is properly railed against by limited-government conservatives,** is the breakdown in our culture,** which social conservatives have been battling for years.

If limited-government conservatives are dreaming of taking back America for fiscal sanity in the November elections, they should study how **the unprecedented decline in marriage and the increase in illegitimacy are the major causes of our bloated government and its gigantic welfare spending. **

In 2008, **40.6% of children born in the United States were born outside of marriage; that’s 1,720,000 children. This is not, as the media try to tell us, a teenage problem. Only 7% of those illegitimate babies were born to girls under age 18, and over three-fourths were born to women over age 20. The problem is the collapse of marriage as the social institution responsible for the costs of the care of children. **"

I would add to that a culture of entitlement and dependency. One that rewards lawsuits and whining to the government, voting more benefits to oneself (whether in a union or as a citizen) rather than trying to work hard and better one’s lot in life. An environment hostile to business that reduces success and innovation and drives companies overseas.

Other disheartening statistics of the class divisions created by our government:
"Those handouts create a tremendous bloc of people who depend on the government for their living expenses. The Tax Foundation reports that 20% of Americans now get 75% of their income from the federal government, and another 20% get 45% of their income from the government. "
"According to the Tax Foundation, married taxpayers pay three-fourths of all federal income taxes, whereas two-thirds of single parents who file as head-of-household pay no income tax at all. According to a Heritage Foundation report, taxpayers (mostly those who are married) will spend more than $300 billion providing welfare aid to single parents (mostly women). "
"The outright cash handouts include the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC), which can amount to as much as $5,657 a year to low-income families. Other financial benefits can include child tax credits, welfare, food stamps, WIC (Women, Infants, Children), housing subsidies, unemployment benefits, Medicaid, S-CHIP, and other programs.

This is both a massive transfer of wealth and a soak-the-rich racket. The top 10% pay 73% of the income taxes collected by the federal government."
This amounts to modern "Taxation without representation, IMO. Hence, the Tea Parties.

"Even the recently passed Obama Health Control Law contains financial subsidies to unmarried couples that are denied to married couples.

Even though all evidence shows that marriage is the best remedy for poverty, lack of health care, domestic violence, child abuse, and school dropouts, federal welfare programs continue to discriminate against marriage and instead give taxpayer handouts to those who reject marriage. This isn’t any accident; it is a central part of the Democrats’ political strategy that produced 70% of unmarried women voting for Obama for President in 2008.

Here is the approximate cost in the Health Control Law for an unmarried couple who each earn $25,000 a year (total: $50,000). When they both buy health insurance (which will be mandatory), the combined premiums they pay will be capped at $3,076 a year. But if the couple gets married and has the same combined income of $50,000, they will pay annual premiums up to a cap of $5,160 a year. That means they have to fork over a marriage penalty of $2,084."

“The Podesta report failed to mention that the Government Accountability Office reported that the IRS estimates that between 27% and 32% of EITC dollars are collected fraudulently”
 
Lest some of you vilify me like you have royal archer, remember that what is in question here is not whether we’d like to lift everyone out of poverty so that they can have food, shelter, education, yes even health care (but also dignity and liberty, truth and integrity). What is in question is HOW we should do it.

I contend that the current “progressive” approach destroys more than it creates. It causes a downward spiral of misery, of continuing social ills. Whether this is intended or unintended is a matter for debate, but I think the effects are pretty apparent. The solution to problems caused by these methods of government intervention is not more government intervention of this manner. We need a different, more responsible–and more Biblical!–approach.

We also need to quit demonizing and silencing opponents for this is an offense against truth. For those of you who have been demonizing royal archer, I rebuke you and call you out on this bearing of false witness and this violence you do against the pursuit of truth. It is my duty as a fellow Christian to do so.

We need instead to have rational discussions, not rushed, uninformed, forced passage of government bills. We need to have respect for liberty, dignity, charity, and responsibility, not look to the government as savior and insodoing violate all of these–and commit idolatry.

Perhaps most of all, we need to join together to encourage the moral transformation of our society and the advancement of private charity (that is the only true kind!).
 
Wow, do you realize what you just said? You just claimed that the ends justify the means. There are few more un-Catholic philosophies or ones more solidly condemned than that!

“We got healthcare passed anyway”–by forcing it through in a very un-democratic way. Even many people in favor of the bill were very much against the manner in which it was passed. 2000+ pages that no one read or had a chance to discuss the development of, amendments not even considered, an effective referendum on the bill in elections and the polls showing that the American people were against it, etc etc.

So the first evil–and evil precedent here–was that the end of passing the bill justified the means (by any means necessary). That, my friend, is a recipe for dictatorship. I can see terrible evils opened up by such folly. That is the failure and tyranny of government right there, as has been demonstrated countless times in human history. Are we immune in this country? Why?

The second evil is the insidious assumption so many of you proponents here make that health care MUST BE “nationalized” in order to make health care affordable to everyone. This is an assumption, followed through by your consistent positions and those of your political advocates, that brooks no debate, condemns discussion and opposing viewpoints, and is the very death of reason and the pursuit of truth. Again, terrible evils can be encouraged and opened up by such folly.

The third evil is the actual bill itself, which the CBO has projected will actually increase the cost of health care. Which it supposedly does by simply forcing people to pay for health care coverage–brilliant. I could have told you that. 30 million people don’t have health care? Tell them to buy it! That’s basically the core of what the bill does. How does that help?

The bill supports the creation of local, even school health care clinics that are really just thinly-veiled abortion clinics. It vastly increases demand while reducing supply, which requires either an increase in costs or another method for controlling demand–rationing. This is an absolute, inescapable fact of economics.

In the end, the bill itself will cause only more misery, less access to health care, increase costs indefinitely, destroy prosperity (leading more into poverty) by increasing our liabilities and destroying wealth, increase abortions, increase inefficient bureaucratic control, etc etc.

The manner of passing the bill was evil. The arguments (or lack thereof) ramming through the bill and demonizing opponents was evil. And the content of the bill included evils and will cause evil effects. There are evil consequences and potential consequences all around. All for the unlikely promise of (tainted) goods.

It’s a lose-lose-lose scenario.
I’m going to be as concise as possible. From an early age I was taught to get results and not overly worry how got them. There were nights where homework was done over and over till I got it right which got me to bed at 4 am. When dad gave me a project to do if I spent time worrying over how to get it done rather than just doing it, a foot to the fanny was fourth coming. Americans (Catholics ) included are not a getting done mode people anymore, and it shows, we get nothing done. If I dont get success I move on to something else where I will. My goal is not to have lives ruined anymore by health. In an earier thread I started I brought up a story of a family man who had insurance and savings and lost him home as a result of a brain anurysm, something thats not really preventable by the way. That family’s lives are ruined forever, Despite the fact the father did everything correct. What had me appalled not only his story, but also when I brought it up on this forum hardly anyone seemed to care. Those who don’t care deserve to loose everything of theirs! Serves them right. I am results oriented. Faith without works is dead. I don’t go through the motions and say look at me I’m doing good works! Like many do these days. I do what I’m going to do and when I either get the results or determine there is no possiblity of success I move on to the next thing that needs to be done.
 
We also need to quit demonizing and silencing opponents for this is an offense against truth. For those of you who have been demonizing royal archer, I rebuke you and call you out on this bearing of false witness and this violence you do against the pursuit of truth. It is my duty as a fellow Christian to do so.
RA reminds me very very much of a certain brotherinlaw who worships economics and business. Remember those are just tools, not what life is all about or a religous experience. Quite frankly RA is the meanest spirited person I have come accross in debating forums in my 12 years on the internet. He is more concerned about money than human well being. On the occasional event he coments on a thread that has nothing to do with econmomics , he tried to turn it into an economic thread, ie the gender issue threads I’m involved in. Then when I bring up the root causes of modern economic problems like money printed out of thin aire backed by nothing he suddenly glazes over. I don’t need to be called out I’m here and I’m not going away!
 
Lest some of you vilify me like you have royal archer, remember that what is in question here is not whether we’d like to lift everyone out of poverty so that they can have food, shelter, education, yes even health care (but also dignity and liberty, truth and integrity). What is in question is HOW we should do it.

I contend that the current “progressive” approach destroys more than it creates. It causes a downward spiral of misery, of continuing social ills. Whether this is intended or unintended is a matter for debate, but I think the effects are pretty apparent. The solution to problems caused by these methods of government intervention is not more government intervention of this manner. We need a different, more responsible–and more Biblical!–approach.

We also need to quit demonizing and silencing opponents for this is an offense against truth. For those of you who have been demonizing royal archer, I rebuke you and call you out on this bearing of false witness and this violence you do against the pursuit of truth. It is my duty as a fellow Christian to do so.

We need instead to have rational discussions, not rushed, uninformed, forced passage of government bills. We need to have respect for liberty, dignity, charity, and responsibility, not look to the government as savior and insodoing violate all of these–and commit idolatry.

Perhaps most of all, we need to join together to encourage the moral transformation of our society and the advancement of private charity (that is the only true kind!).
👍
 
RA reminds me very very much of a certain brotherinlaw who worships economics and business. Remember those are just tools, not what life is all about or a religous experience. Quite frankly RA is the meanest spirited person I have come accross in debating forums in my 12 years on the internet. He is more concerned about money than human well being. On the occasional event he coments on a thread that has nothing to do with econmomics , he tried to turn it into an economic thread, ie the gender issue threads I’m involved in. Then when I bring up the root causes of modern economic problems like money printed out of thin aire backed by nothing he suddenly glazes over. I don’t need to be called out I’m here and I’m not going away!
Stop with the ad hominem attacks, would you?
 
RA reminds me very very much of a certain brotherinlaw who worships economics and business. Remember those are just tools, not what life is all about or a religous experience. Quite frankly RA is the meanest spirited person I have come accross in debating forums in my 12 years on the internet. He is more concerned about money than human well being. On the occasional event he coments on a thread that has nothing to do with econmomics , he tried to turn it into an economic thread, ie the gender issue threads I’m involved in. Then when I bring up the root causes of modern economic problems like money printed out of thin aire backed by nothing he suddenly glazes over. I don’t need to be called out I’m here and I’m not going away!
You seem to have the attitude that anyone who opposes this Health Care bill is evil personified, doesnt care about the poor and is greedy.

It should be noted that our Church opposes this bill as it funds killing children-an act so heinous no amount of the supposed good this bill does can offset it. Is the Church evil personified? Does the Church not care for the poor? Is the Church greedy?

Of course there are a myriad of other problems with this bill-many of which no one was aware of until after it was passed and signed. As many have tried to point out to you all of support assisting the poor-we just differ on how to do it.

BTW-sounds like your Brotherinlaw understands a lot more of what is going on than you do-perhaps you should listen to him rather than attack us.
 
You seem to have the attitude that anyone who opposes this Health Care bill is evil personified, doesnt care about the poor and is greedy.

It should be noted that our Church opposes this bill as it funds killing children-an act so heinous no amount of the supposed good this bill does can offset it. Is the Church evil personified? Does the Church not care for the poor? Is the Church greedy?

Of course there are a myriad of other problems with this bill-many of which no one was aware of until after it was passed and signed. As many have tried to point out to you all of support assisting the poor-we just differ on how to do it.

BTW-sounds like your Brotherinlaw understands a lot more of what is going on than you do-perhaps you should listen to him rather than attack us.
Actually I do onot know my brotherinlaw’s stance on the healcare issue. He is obbsessed currently with his window frame business he owns and talks nothing else but that. By the way it isn’t the window frame aspect he talks about its the business aspect he talks about. He is so over obsessed about it no one in the family invites him to anything anymore because we are tired of hearing about his business.
 
You seem to have the attitude that anyone who opposes this Health Care bill is evil personified, doesnt care about the poor and is greedy.

It should be noted that our Church opposes this bill as it funds killing children-an act so heinous no amount of the supposed good this bill does can offset it. Is the Church evil personified? Does the Church not care for the poor? Is the Church greedy?

Of course there are a myriad of other problems with this bill-many of which no one was aware of until after it was passed and signed. As many have tried to point out to you all of support assisting the poor-we just differ on how to do it.

BTW-sounds like your Brotherinlaw understands a lot more of what is going on than you do-perhaps you should listen to him rather than attack us.
Anyone who takes the side of the insurance companies I have to wonder if they are evil personified. If I conducted business in the unscrupulous manner they do, my own mother would disown me.
 
Anyone who takes the side of the insurance companies I have to wonder if they are evil personified. If I conducted business in the unscrupulous manner they do, my own mother would disown me.
How so?

The insurance companies make 3%-4% profit if that and Medicare/Medicad deny more claims than private insurance.
 
Stop with the ad hominem attacks, would you?
So if someone here reminds me of someone I know, I’m not supposed to say so? I am pointing out an obsession. I can’t think of a worse waste of time thing to be obsessed with more than economics. Those who are obsessed with something like that need psychological help and medication. A true Christian doesn’t dwell on a subject like that.
 
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