Why do you think forced healthcare is immoral?

[aspawloski4th]

Wow, do you realize what you just said? You just claimed that the ends justify the means. There are few more un-Catholic philosophies or ones more solidly condemned than that!

“We got healthcare passed anyway”–by forcing it through in a very un-democratic way. Even many people in favor of the bill were very much against the manner in which it was passed. 2000+ pages that no one read or had a chance to discuss the development of, amendments not even considered, an effective referendum on the bill in elections and the polls showing that the American people were against it, etc etc.

Tell me something. There lots of bills that size before congress all the time eversince anyone can remember. When is the last time someone read a bill that size from end to end. Anyone who mentions someone doing that in modern times is lieing.

 

[estesbob]

Actually I do onot know my brotherinlaw’s stance on the healcare issue. He is obbsessed currently with his window frame business he owns and talks nothing else but that. By the way it isn’t the window frame aspect he talks about its the business aspect he talks about. He is so over obsessed about it no one in the family invites him to anything anymore because we are tired of hearing about his business.

So he is business for himself. Are you? As one who deals with small busnesses on a daily basis I can tell you they have a very different view of health care legislation than you do. Guess that makes them evil.

So lets review the evil list:

The Church
Your Brotherinlaw
Small Businesses(Evil status pending)
Estesbob
Royal archer
ComputerGeek25

Have I missed any?

 

[ComputerGeek25]

So if someone here reminds me of someone I know, I’m not supposed to say so? I am pointing out an obsession. I can’t think of a worse waste of time thing to be obsessed with more than economics. Those who are obsessed with something like that need psychological help and medication. A true Christian doesn’t dwell on a subject like that.

It’s not an obsession.

People bring up several valid points on how healthcare is to be delivered and paid for. Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn’t mean they are not Christian or are evil.

 

[aspawloski4th]

So he is business for himself. Are you? As one who deals with small busnesses on a daily basis I can tell you they have a very different view of health care legislation than you do. Guess that makes them evil.

So lets review the evil list:

The Church
Your Brotherinlaw
Small Businesses(Evil status pending)
Estesbob
Royal archer
ComputerGeek25

Have I missed any?

Actually if it still was in existance I’d be heir to a familybusiness that my greatgrandfather started. Which even thrived in the great depression. It was an autobody collision repair and custom autopainting shop. When my great grandfather was at work he was all business , a perfectionist and a getting done mode type person. Once 5 oclock rolled around and he opened that car door to drive home Commercial Auto painting was put in his mind’s storage and he was dealing with other life issues. He left work at work and it absolutely without exception never came home with him, and that is as it should be.
For this issue of healthcare I never have seen such defensiveness in my life. What we have now for a healthcare financing system isnt worth an ounce of anything from me. Too many people even those insured loose everything and have their lives ruined over an illness. Ie the man with the anurysm Ive brought up tons of times Any system that allows that to happen is evil, that not even debateble. Thats what we should care about, not the business world or anyother pc platatude.

 

[estesbob]

Actually if it still was in existance I’d be heir to a familybusiness that my greatgrandfather started. Which even thrived in the great depression. It was an autobody collision repair and custom autopainting shop. When my great grandfather was at work he was all business , a perfectionist and a getting done mode type person. Once 5 oclock rolled around and he opened that car door to drive home Commercial Auto painting was put in his mind’s storage and he was dealing with other life issues. He left work at work and it absolutely without exception never came home with him, and that is as it should be.
For this issue of healthcare I never have seen such defensiveness in my life. What we have now for a healthcare financing system isnt worth an ounce of anything from me. Too many people even those insured loose everything and have their lives ruined over an illness. Ie the man with the anurysm Ive brought up tons of times Any system that allows that to happen is evil, that not even debateble. Thats what we should care about, not the business world or anyother pc platatude.

In other words you dont own a business, never have and your only knowledge of the issues inherent with small business is your opinion on your grandfather running a busniness that is no longer in business. All that qualifies you, however, to comment on how those who own a business should handle their business.?

If you had inherited the Business i have no doubt you would have paid 100% of you employees health care, paid them 4 times minimum wage , been out of business in a week and now be running around the Country as a busness consultant telling others how they should treat their emoplyees

 

[aspawloski4th]

In other words you dont own a business, never have and your only knowledge of the issues inherent with small business is your opinion on your grandfather running a busniness that is no longer in business. All that qualifies you, however, to comment on how those who own a business should handle their business.?

If you had inherited the Business i have no doubt you would have paid 100% of you employees health care, paid them 4 times minimum wage , been out of business in a week and now be running around the Country as a busness consultant telling others how they should treat their emoplyees

The business was shutdown when my grandfather owned it, because he got in trouble with the IRS. ( You dont withould txes from wages then keep them for your self) My greatgrandfather never did anything like that. Actually at the time the great grand father owned it he payed top dollar for a good percentage of his workers. It payed off for him, his was the only bodyshop in KentCounty Michigan that met high enough standards to do body work for Packard. from the roaring 20s till when Packard went out of busniness in 1958 every dealership or insurance authorized job done on a Packard was done by his shop. Back as far as the 1930s he had workers from as far away as 50 miles away working for him daily, because he need their skill and he made it worth their while. Despite the fact in those days the Dutch generally patronized only other Dutch owned business because of their clanish attitude in the Grand Rapids area, he got a lot of their business because of the way he ran his business. Don’t tell me what I do and don’t know. I know how business and economics work, I’m just not obsessed with either subject or dwell on either. If anyone were truely serious about sound economics around here they would demand the Federal Reserve be abolished and the dollar be minted by the treasury and backed by gold or silver or a combination of both. Until then to me all you conservatives are doing is blowing hot air.

 

[estesbob]

The business was shutdown when my grandfather owned it, because he got in trouble with the IRS. ( You dont withould txes from wages then keep them for your self) .

Looks like he should have been worryng about his business at night.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Looks like he should have been worryng about his business at night.

Or howabout just do it rigt when you are at work! When my great grandfather wasnt at work he was concerned with things like grandchildren, the rebuilding of his parish, his neighborhood, his son’s rocky marriage, or earier on raising his son(because his first wife died young of a brain hemorrage). There are more things in life than business.

 

[Arandur]

So if someone here reminds me of someone I know, I’m not supposed to say so? I am pointing out an obsession. I can’t think of a worse waste of time thing to be obsessed with more than economics. Those who are obsessed with something like that need psychological help and medication. A true Christian doesn’t dwell on a subject like that.

Being aware of economics and studying it is not the same thing as being obsessed with it. You seem to indicate that caring about economics at all is a waste of time and constitutes an evil obsession.

Yet economics was a discipline basically invented by the Church. So we shouldn’t
investigate such subjects?

Economics involves the study of human systems by which we can attempt to enhance prosperity FOR ALL. In fact, application of economic principles has lead to the greatest increase in prosperity (and reduction of poverty) in history. Is that not a worthy cause?

 

[Arandur]

Tell me something. There lots of bills that size before congress all the time eversince anyone can remember. When is the last time someone read a bill that size from end to end. Anyone who mentions someone doing that in modern times is lieing.

It is possible to read that many pages. Surely someone who intends to pass something that would amount to a HUGE transformation in our American way of life, our economy, the livelihoods of millions of people, and affecting life or death decisions had BETTER read the whole bill. Otherwise it is simply irresponsible.

You are using an argumentative fallacy. Since nobody reads things we shouldn’t worry about that and just pass it anyway. What a way to govern. Devoid of morals, integrity, and pursuit of wisdom and truth. You’re showing yourself to be very anti-Christian and anti-Church in your philosophy.

If there are so many bills that size, shouldn’t we ask ourselves why we’re passing such massive laws? Why we’re passing them without reading or debating them? That’s no way to govern.

 

[aspawloski4th]

It is possible to read that many pages. Surely someone who intends to pass something that would amount to a HUGE transformation in our American way of life, our economy, the livelihoods of millions of people, and affecting life or death decisions had BETTER read the whole bill. Otherwise it is simply irresponsible.

You are using an argumentative fallacy. Since nobody reads things we shouldn’t worry about that and just pass it anyway. What a way to govern. Devoid of morals, integrity, and pursuit of wisdom and truth. You’re showing yourself to be very anti-Christian and anti-Church in your philosophy.

If there are so many bills that size, shouldn’t we ask ourselves why we’re passing such massive laws? Why we’re passing them without reading or debating them? That’s no way to govern.

As a speed reader myself, I could easily read 2000 pages, but I dont have the same schedule as a congressman has either. Try reading dozens of 2000 page bills. Thats why bills have sumerries to them.

 

[Arandur]

I know how business and economics work, I’m just not obsessed with either subject or dwell on either.

Then please answer how you think you can greatly increase demand of a product (health care) while reducing price (gov’t mandated reimbursements are going down) and supply (through the many other regulations involved in the health care bill) without ending up causing an even greater supply crisis. The demand relative to supply must either be regulated by higher prices or some other mechanism–rationing.

Those are pretty basic economic concepts. If you understand economics, how do you escape this reality? The health care bill rather obviously will cause more harm than good the way it is set up. It will worsen the existing problems.

If anyone were truely serious about sound economics around here they would demand the Federal Reserve be abolished and the dollar be minted by the treasury and backed by gold or silver or a combination of both. Until then to me all you conservatives are doing is blowing hot air.

So now you have a litmus test for being “serious” about “sound economics.” Well if it will make you feel better and pass your credibility test, I’m actually in agreement with you there. The Federal Reserve is an abomination on many levels, as is the fiat money it “controls.” Money should be backed by measurable resources–more than just gold and/or silver, though, but a market basket of durable resources.

Now have I earned the credibility that will bring you to stop ignoring my other arguments about the economic damage and counter-productivity of the health care bill?

As a speed reader myself, I could easily read 2000 pages, but I dont have the same schedule as a congressman has either. Try reading dozens of 2000 page bills. Thats why bills have sumerries to them.

Speed reading often reduces comprehension, so I try not to do it on important issues or when I’m really “listening” to what someone is “saying” in their writing.

Summaries are often agenda-driven. How do you easily summarize the many pages worth of new bureaucracies that the health care bill would create? The de facto abortion clinics (“community health care centers,” I believe they’re called) to be built in every neighborhood and school? How do you analyze the precedents and potential terrible abuse of power you’re opening the system up to? (One obvious problem will be that the power to define what types of private plans are “acceptable” may require expensive coverages like $500 deductibles or $25 copays, or perhaps coverage of abortion, contraception, sex change procedures and plastic surgery [like California requires], or euthanasia?)

We’ve got to be more responsible about the laws we pass. Opponents and even those who wanted most of the health care bill were right to want better–but the proponents tried to silence debate and criticism in their pursuit of folly and flight from truth and liberty. What would have been so wrong with building the bill from the ground up, rather than taking the monstrous thing (more than 4 reams of paper!) wholesale from out of the shadows (we don’t even know who wrote it!) and try to ram it down our throats?

What would have been so wrong about passing the things most people agreed upon, like tightening up laws prohibiting exclusion of coverage for pre-existing conditions, while having a proper debate on other potential ideas?

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Then please answer how you think you can greatly increase demand of a product (health care) while reducing price (gov’t mandated reimbursements are going down) and supply (through the many other regulations involved in the health care bill) without ending up causing an even greater supply crisis. The demand relative to supply must either be regulated by higher prices or some other mechanism–rationing.

Those are pretty basic economic concepts. If you understand economics, how do you escape this reality? The health care bill rather obviously will cause more harm than good the way it is set up. It will worsen the existing problems.

So now you have a litmus test for being “serious” about “sound economics.” Well if it will make you feel better and pass your credibility test, I’m actually in agreement with you there. The Federal Reserve is an abomination on many levels, as is the fiat money it “controls.” Money should be backed by measurable resources–more than just gold and/or silver, though, but a market basket of durable resources.

Now have I earned the credibility that will bring you to stop ignoring my other arguments about the economic damage and counter-productivity of the health care bill?

Speed reading often reduces comprehension, so I try not to do it on important issues or when I’m really “listening” to what someone is “saying” in their writing.

Summaries are often agenda-driven. How do you easily summarize the many pages worth of new bureaucracies that the health care bill would create? The de facto abortion clinics (“community health care centers,” I believe they’re called) to be built in every neighborhood and school? How do you analyze the precedents and potential terrible abuse of power you’re opening the system up to? (One obvious problem will be that the power to define what types of private plans are “acceptable” may require expensive coverages like $500 deductibles or $25 copays, or perhaps coverage of abortion, contraception, sex change procedures and plastic surgery [like California requires], or euthanasia?)

We’ve got to be more responsible about the laws we pass. Opponents and even those who wanted most of the health care bill were right to want better–but the proponents tried to silence debate and criticism in their pursuit of folly and flight from truth and liberty. What would have been so wrong with building the bill from the ground up, rather than taking the monstrous thing (more than 4 reams of paper!) wholesale from out of the shadows (we don’t even know who wrote it!) and try to ram it down our throats?

What would have been so wrong about passing the things most people agreed upon, like tightening up laws prohibiting exclusion of coverage for pre-existing conditions, while having a proper debate on other potential ideas?