Why do you think God allowed Protestantism?

[Truthstalker]

The only reason we have Catholicism is because we are fallen. But, I’m not understanding the last part of your argument regarding the “worship of free will at the expense of the sovereignty of God”. Can you clarify this for me? Thank you.

We encounter a paradox when we discuss free will versus the sovereignty of God. Man has free will, but God is still in control. Those who ignore one at the promotion of the other do so at their peril. I have seen waaaay too many Catholics on CAF ignore the sovereignty of God in favor of a “I choose to be saved” mentality. It seems to me they worship free will instead of God. Calvinists get accused of the opposite error. This is due to the shallowness of teaching today. whether one is Catholic or Protestant…

A Church that claims to teach infallibly should do so. Instead you see the sad state of catechesis in the Catholic Church.

 

[catharina]

As you judge me???

Luther and Henry VIII led their followers out of the Church.
Nothing else need be said.

Adding the fact that both men married -
Luther, despite his pledge to celibacy,
Henry, multiple times aided by multiple executions -
that’s no more than historical fact.

You needn’t attempt to forget such facts.

 

[Dispector]

We encounter a paradox when we discuss free will versus the sovereignty of God. Man has free will, but God is still in control. Those who ignore one at the promotion of the other do so at their peril. I have seen waaaay too many Catholics on CAF ignore the sovereignty of God in favor of a “I choose to be saved” mentality. It seems to me they worship free will instead of God. Calvinists get accused of the opposite error. This is due to the shallowness of teaching today. whether one is Catholic or Protestant…

A Church that claims to teach infallibly should do so. Instead you see the sad state of catechesis in the Catholic Church.

I would have to completely disagree with this argument. Let me post just a few Catechism quotes for clarification.
Catholic Catechism #1704:

The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By free will, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection “in seeking and loving what is true and good.”

Catholic Catechism #1711:

Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in “seeking and loving what is true and good”

Catholic Catechism #1730 - 1731:

God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.” Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

These show the teachings of the Church in regards to the importance of free will contrary to what you stated about official doctrine. It also shows that “worship” of free will is not taught… nor have I heard anyone argue for that point. That is simply a straw-man argument with no justifiable evidence.

Additionally,
Catholic Catechism #1993:

Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

Here, it shows that although we may choose positive actions through free will it is only with God’s grace (taking into consideration His sovereignty) that one may truly move towards God. Also, because God allowed us to have free will and allowed us to choose does not discount anything from his sovereignty. He bestowed upon us this gift because He is the only one with the power to do so and because of His divine wisdom. He can take away that gift as freely as He gave it.

 

[SIA]

“at once” has a definite meaning. Few would equate fours years with “at once.” But words mean whatever you say they mean, apparently. You can claim the moon is made out of green cheese, and then bring in your own definition of what green cheese is.

The point is that you have taken the worst possible construction on Luther’s actions, one not sustained by historical investigation, one not in line with the Lord’s commandments to love our brethren, but one that is all too common among Catholics, who likewise take his commandments as meaning whatever they want them to mean.
You then take that interpretation and build your case around a fallacy.

You cannot see into his heart. You cannot know his fate. You cannot judge him, yet you do.

You are absolutely right. I see this all too often. It’s like this horrific emotionally sirred witch hunt for Martin Luther and one has to ask, Why? If Catholicism is so much grander and so much more filled with truth than Protestantism then why the pronounced ill will to this very day against Luther? Why even be bothered with the thought?

 

[SIA]

As you judge me???

Luther and Henry VIII led their followers out of the Church.
Nothing else need be said.

Adding the fact that both men married -
Luther, despite his pledge to celibacy,
Henry, multiple times aided by multiple executions -
that’s no more than historical fact.

You needn’t attempt to forget such facts.

Uhhhh, What???

 

[sambos671]

You are absolutely right. I see this all too often. It’s like this horrific emotionally sirred witch hunt for Martin Luther and one has to ask, Why? If Catholicism is so much grander and so much more filled with truth than Protestantism then why the pronounced ill will to this very day against Luther? Why even be bothered with the thought?

That’s a good point. The thing is with Christians today we tend to look at the reformation through the lens of todays setting. People just don’t understand how things were at that time. What the culture was and how people interacted. Politically today the Catholic church is all but irrelivant. During Luther and before the political power center of Europe and the Church were very much intertwined. A marriage that lessened the Church I believe. People often became clergy because they could achieve two things that they might not have elsewise such as an education and access to power. The Catholic Church today is not the same animal as it was in Luther’s day.

 

[Hislittlelady]

IMHO since Protestantism is hundreds of years old, and most today that are of this non-Catholic Christianity were raised this way, as were their parents and all those before them for hundreds of years, this is what comes to their understanding of Christ. It’s not their fault that their forefathers left the one holy Apostolic Church of Christ due to man’s failures, and so they understand what’s been handed down to them through the centuries.

I know this through a few friends, one in particular, who is so firmly rooted in her Protestant faith, and I’ve tried to explain Catholic theology to her, and she can’t understand one word of it. She only knows scripture and wouldn’t even dream of understanding something as alien as Catholic theology. It’s not really her fault as I see it.

I believe that Christ, right from the start, knew because of human nature, this would happen. There was division right from the start with the early church fathers. I completely believe that even though the Protestant faith has only partial truths as we Catholics believe it to be so, Jesus does lead one to find him by whatever means it takes, as long as they are worshipping and adoring him. Of course they are saved, just as we are.

I have no desire to study the Protestant faith. Do you? Would you be willing to sit and read book after book studying Protestantism. We say we’re right, they say they’re right. We believe in sacred tradition and they do not. Why this is I do not know. But whatever the case, God leads us in whatever way it takes to make us understand Him.

The biggest problem from my point of view is the constant criticisim between the denominations of Christianity. I fully understand the truths taught by my Catholic faith, but unfortunately not everyone does. I don’t understand why they find it so hard to accept oral and sacred tradition or the sacraments themselves. They claim our church is all made man rules, which of course is not true at all, but mainly guidelines set down by the first pope inspired by the Holy Spirit, as Christ said it would be.

Christ definitely left us a head of church as in the seat of Peter. I often wonder why Protestants have a problem understanding this when it’s so clearly stated in scripture. But then, this too stems from the early church when words must have gotten twisted, some saying Christ didn’t mean it this way or that way, and so the interpretations changed. How sad that is.

I think for Protestants to come to the Holy Apostolic church they would have to study extensively the Catholic catechism, and let’s be realistic, the majority will not do that because they don’t believe it to begin with. I would not study Protestantism. I believe I already have the truth, as they do also. But this is subject to debate and I’m not going there at all.

I don’t think God necessarily wanted to allow Protestant since the church started by Christ was made upon Peter the rock, a/k/a the first Pope, and how this statement can be twisted or changed is beyond me. Nevertheless, in spite of who’s wrong and who’s right, God leads us to him in whatever way each man can understand.

:knight1: :snowing: :compcoff:

 

[Nino]

Well,in just a few short sentences you managed to insult we Catholics…we are not friendly etc etc…moving on (please,your still standing on my foot) rainy days make us yearn for sunny ones…a day without pain is a blessing if one has a chronic illness etc…After Luther left the RCC he then teamed up with the wealthy establishment and then came the slaughter.some 20,000 German Peasants bit the dust for defending their RCC faith…and what did the survivors find after the RCC churchs were closed…why they were empty of all of the gold,silver,paintings etc…'sent back to Rome’was the smirking reply…yeh sure…so many of the fortunes of these protestant families came from the plunder of the RCC during the reilgious revolutions of the era. As a mortal it is impossible to second guess ones Creator but taking a guess I would say again…free will…Gods greatest gift to we humans…we are free to be stupid or clever…to look both ways before crossing the street or just not! The clue to the Truth of the RCC is the hatred towards it by the world…in movies,‘codes’,books,sit-coms…Jesus warned us and as always He was right…

 

[catharina]

IMHO since Protestantism is hundreds of years old, and most today that are of this non-Catholic Christianity were raised this way, as were their parents and all those before them for hundreds of years, this is what comes to their understanding of Christ. It’s not their fault that their forefathers left the one holy Apostolic Church of Christ due to man’s failures, and so they understand what’s been handed down to them through the centuries.

I know this through a few friends, one in particular, who is so firmly rooted in her Protestant faith, and I’ve tried to explain Catholic theology to her, and she can’t understand one word of it.
Christ definitely left us a head of church as in the seat of Peter. I often wonder why Protestants have a problem understanding this when it’s so clearly stated in scripture.

…

**What you stated above can be learned from the Catholic Church itself; it needn’t be learned from a friend. Indeed as you’ve stated, people born into families that have been Protestant for centuries can in no way be accused of the sins of Luther or Henry VIII or the many other so-called reformers. **

I don’t think God necessarily wanted to allow Protestant since the church started by Christ was made upon Peter the rock, a/k/a the first Pope, and how this statement can be twisted or changed is beyond me.

…

Clearly God did not and will not bless division and the loss of faith that is at the core of Protestant teachings. Again such divisions can be best described as man telling God in His holy Church: "I’m correct, God, and You are in error."

 

[catharina]

That’s a good point. The thing is with Christians today we tend to look at the reformation through the lens of todays setting. People just don’t understand how things were at that time. What the culture was and how people interacted. Politically today the Catholic church is all but irrelivant. During Luther and before the political power center of Europe and the Church were very much intertwined. A marriage that lessened the Church I believe. People often became clergy because they could achieve two things that they might not have elsewise such as an education and access to power. The Catholic Church today is not the same animal as it was in Luther’s day.

Faults and sin related to the times, to history, in no way lessen the sin of those who left the Church to begin their own ‘churches.’ For the majority who remained faithful to Rome, they and their descendents have been rewarded with continuing grace under the leadership of Peter’s successors. So it remains to this day.

 

[sambos671]

Faults and sin related to the times, to history, in no way lessen the sin of those who left the Church to begin their own ‘churches.’ For the majority who remained faithful to Rome, they and their descendents have been rewarded with continuing grace under the leadership of Peter’s successors. So it remains to this day.

Nor indeed does it lessen the sin of those who drove those same people away from the church by their own actions not in conformity with their own declaired faith. I think they have more to answer for than those who confused left the Church. From a spiritual stand point I would equate that action to those Jesus warns when he says “it is better for you to tie a mill stone around your neck and throw yourself into the see than to prevent these little ones from coming to me.” (my paraphrase) BTW when I look at modern day Spain, Italy, France, Germany I’m not so certain about the reward of the continuing grace under the leadership of Peter’s successors. Certainly if they followed their own faith I would agree.

 

[catharina]

Nor indeed does it lessen the sin of those who drove those same people away from the church by their own actions not in conformity with their own declaired faith. I think they have more to answer for than those who confused left the Church. From a spiritual stand point I would equate that action to those Jesus warns when he says “it is better for you to tie a mill stone around your neck and throw yourself into the see than to prevent these little ones from coming to me.” (my paraphrase) BTW when I look at modern day Spain, Italy, France, Germany I’m not so certain about the reward of the continuing grace under the leadership of Peter’s successors. Certainly if they followed their own faith I would agree.

Apples and oranges:

Those who gave sinful leadership.
Those who abandoned their faith.

Apples and oranges.
Point of this thread?

How can anyone justify Protestantism today?
Shall we pretend it’s a “good thing” blessed by God?
No.

 

[Hislittlelady]

catharina
Clearly God did not and will not bless division and the loss of faith that is at the core of Protestant teachings. Again such divisions can be best described as man telling God in His holy Church: “I’m correct, God, and You are in error.”

Yes I agree to a point, but the Protestants of our day have no understanding of this and so, to repeat what I said earlier, God leads all to Him in the best way they can understand. I cannot see now or even in the near future, nor the distant future, how any of these rifts can be repaired. The blame must be placed on the early reformers, not the Protestants of today, since this is how it’s been for generations and for them it is now set in stone. I can’t imagine this ever changing but wish it would. Each much find his way to God and since God allowed and permitted the reformation to take place, including the heresies from the beginning of the church, only he can be the judge of anything contrary to the teaching of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic church.
:coffeeread: :sad_yes:

 

[catharina]

Yes I agree to a point, but the Protestants of our day have no understanding of this and so, to repeat what I said earlier, God leads all to Him in the best way they can understand. I cannot see now or even in the near future, nor the distant future, how any of these rifts can be repaired. The blame must be placed on the early reformers, not the Protestants of today, since this is how it’s been for generations and for them it is now set in stone. I can’t imagine this ever changing but wish it would. Each much find his way to God and since God allowed and permitted the reformation to take place, including the heresies from the beginning of the church, only he can be the judge of anything contrary to the teaching of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic church.
:coffeeread: :sad_yes:

Prayer does lead all in the same direction, to a life that is one with God’s will. More and more in the last few decades, Episcopal priests and Lutheran ministers have, with their families, entered the Church, to serve God in the fullness of faith.

The practice of personal humility and a thirst for Truth seem to be a good start.

 

[sambos671]

Apples and oranges:

Those who gave sinful leadership.
Those who abandoned their faith.

Apples and oranges.
Point of this thread?

How can anyone justify Protestantism today?
Shall we pretend it’s a “good thing” blessed by God?
No.

This is one thing I never understood about Catholics. They would rather have someone sin and abhor the eucharist by living as a homosexual, adulterer, a theif, a fornicator, live in superstition (ie bury st. joseph statue to sell house) etc… not change their and still recieve the host w/out real repetance. Than the would someone who turned their life around as a protestant engross themselves in scripture and do good works for the benefit of their community. When I consider this is astounds me especially when I consider these verses:

Quote:
26If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is false 27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
worthless.

Quote:
8Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

Quote:
4But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.

And when you consider this from Jesus who is more righteous?

Quote:
28"What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’
29" ‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30"Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.

31"Which of the two did what his father wanted?"
“The first,” they answered.

 

[catharina]

This is one thing I never understood about Catholics. They would rather have someone sin and abhor the eucharist by living as a homosexual, adulterer, a theif, a fornicator, live in superstition (ie bury st. joseph statue to sell house) etc… not change their and still recieve the host w/out real repetance.

Your prenise is unsubstatiated (to put it mildly).

Than the would someone who turned their life around as a protestant engross themselves in scripture and do good works for the benefit of their community. When I consider this is astounds me especially when I consider these verses:

Quote:
26If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is false 27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
worthless.

Quote:
8Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

Quote:
4But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.

And when you consider this from Jesus who is more righteous?

Quote:
28"What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’
29" ‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30"Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.

31"Which of the two did what his father wanted?"
“The first,” they answered.

Therefore your quotes hold no relevance to your false premise. However, I did take a look at your public profile and knowing now that you abandoned the Catholic faith, I better understand your need to be defensive. Doing the will of the Father is not determined by one’s tastes.

 

[sambos671]

It has nothing to do with taste. And I’m not defensive. I’m stating things as I see them. For instance My father is twice divorced, my Mother plays with Budhism and some wiccanism, my brother is an adulterer and a drug user, my sister is a RCIA teacher yet also has committed adultry. They all say I need to return to the faith because they want me to be “saved” yet this is their lifestyles and not one absents themselves from the Eucharist. There is substantiation for you. And I’m not the only one. There are many catholics who have the same story. So there is an issue. Whether it be Catachesis or not there is an issue. How could I have left the Church if I never knew the church to begin with? When I left I was 15. I did not know one thing the church really taught and I went to perochial school! All I knew was Sunday mass and that I couldn’t receive the Eucharist unless I went to confession on Saturday. Which BTW was used by my family as an excuse to sin friday, confess sat, recieve the Eucharist sunday, just to begin sinning again on monday.

 

[catharina]

It has nothing to do with taste. And I’m not defensive. I’m stating things as I see them. For instance My father is twice divorced, my Mother plays with Budhism and some wiccanism, my brother is an adulterer and a drug user, my sister is a RCIA teacher yet also has committed adultry. They all say I need to return to the faith because they want me to be “saved” yet this is their lifestyles and not one absents themselves from the Eucharist. There is substantiation for you. And I’m not the only one. There are many catholics who have the same story. So there is an issue. Whether it be Catachesis or not there is an issue. How could I have left the Church if I never knew the church to begin with? When I left I was 15. I did not know one thing the church really taught and I went to perochial school! All I knew was Sunday mass and that I couldn’t receive the Eucharist unless I went to confession on Saturday. Which BTW was used by my family as an excuse to sin friday, confess sat, recieve the Eucharist sunday, just to begin sinning again on monday.

The story about your family is extremely sad and unlike any I’ve ever heard. As for the rest, I was under the impression (from your previous posts) that you left the Church after you’d been attending a Protestant boarding school, not as a Catholic school student.

 

[sambos671]

The story about your family is extremely sad and unlike any I’ve ever heard. As for the rest, I was under the impression (from your previous posts) that you left the Church after you’d been attending a Protestant boarding school, not as a Catholic school student.

Yes that is true. I never really heard the gospel and see it lived out until I went there. People living their faith. And I learned more scripture than anywhere else. I went to perochial school in grade school for 1, 2, and 3rd Grade. Most Holy Trinity in San Jose. I also went to perocial school for middle school 6, 7, and 8th grade at St. Elisabeth in Oakland. I went to a Missionary boarding School in Kenya for Highschool.

 

[catharina]

Yes that is true. I never really heard the gospel and see it lived out until I went there. People living their faith. And I learned more scripture than anywhere else. I went to perochial school in grade school for 1, 2, and 3rd Grade. Most Holy Trinity in San Jose. I also went to perocial school for middle school 6, 7, and 8th grade at St. Elisabeth in Oakland. I went to a Missionary boarding School in Kenya for Highschool.

I hope you decide to make an effort to learn about Catholicism as it truly is. Six grades of education in two parochial school systems can’t provide much formation for anybody. As for your family, I can’t figure why any of them claim to be Catholic if they are involved in the activities you claim. They are in no position to teach you about the Catholic faith. However, now that you’re an adult there are MANY Catholic programs that could inform you about the faith. Such things can NOT be learned from a point of view presented by Protestants. I hope you do recognize that.

The systems of belief supported by Protestants exist in opposition to the Catholic faith.