Why do you think God allowed Protestantism?

[sambos671]

I hope you decide to make an effort to learn about Catholicism as it truly is. Six grades of education in two parochial school systems can’t provide much formation for anybody. As for your family, I can’t figure why any of them claim to be Catholic if they are involved in the activities you claim. They are in no position to teach you about the Catholic faith. However, now that you’re an adult there are MANY Catholic programs that could inform you about the faith. Such things can NOT be learned from a point of view presented by Protestants. I hope you do recognize that.

The systems of belief supported by Protestants exist in opposition to the Catholic faith.

FYI. I’m returning to the Catholic Church but I’m not saying my journey as a protestant was in vain. My parents did exactly what I’ve stated. My brothers (one is in jail which I hadn’t mentioned) and my sister are exactly as I’ve represented here. You may have a nice parish. I’ve met many Catholics who have my same story. Protestantism in some ways are opposed to the Catholic church but in others not so much. For instance the CCC states that both Sacred Scripture and Tradition work together but many Catholics stop at Tradition with out the other aspect of the Magisterium. I find myself now as a returning Catholic having more scripture knowledge than many in my Parish and am being asked to assist those in need of help with this area of their walk. Your right about my family not being in a position to teach Catholicism. But many Catholics are secular. The US presidential election show this to be true. Many Catholics have left “religion” to the clergy or the super religious.

 

[catharina]

FYI. I’m returning to the Catholic Church but I’m not saying my journey as a protestant was in vain. My parents did exactly what I’ve stated. My brothers (one is in jail which I hadn’t mentioned) and my sister are exactly as I’ve represented here. You may have a nice parish. I’ve met many Catholics who have my same story. Protestantism in some ways are opposed to the Catholic church but in others not so much. For instance the CCC states that both Sacred Scripture and Tradition work together but many Catholics stop at Tradition with out the other aspect of the Magisterium. I find myself now as a returning Catholic having more scripture knowledge than many in my Parish and am being asked to assist those in need of help with this area of their walk. Your right about my family not being in a position to teach Catholicism. But many Catholics are secular. The US presidential election show this to be true. Many Catholics have left “religion” to the clergy or the super religious.

I hope your return to the Faith is one of great peace and joy. As for your family, I offer my deepest sympathy. The in-name-only “Catholics” who support sinful political agendas bring sorrow and horror to those who are faithful Catholics. I’m in nothern California as you were in your early school days.

The views of Gavin Newsom, Nancy Pelosi and Arnold S can give one nightmares.

 

[sambos671]

I hope your return to the Faith is one of great peace and joy. As for your family, I offer my deepest sympathy. The in-name-only “Catholics” who support sinful political agendas bring sorrow and horror to those who are faithful Catholics. I’m in nothern California as you were in your early school days.

The views of Gavin Newsom, Nancy Pelosi and Arnold S can give one nightmares.

It is so far. I have my own family but have to deal with having a protestant wife and trying to teach my children appropiately. Fortunately the diocese has accepted my marriage. I find that the sacrament of reconciliation has been more empowering then I had known.

 

[jmcrae]

This is one thing I never understood about Catholics. They would rather have someone sin and abhor the eucharist by living as a homosexual, adulterer, a theif, a fornicator, live in superstition (ie bury st. joseph statue to sell house) etc… not change their and still recieve the host w/out real repetance. Than the would someone who turned their life around as a protestant engross themselves in scripture and do good works for the benefit of their community.

Yes, all the while picking and choosing from among the many varieities of Protestantism for one that confirms them in their sins, and tells them that they don’t have to go to Confession “to a man” - they can confess just as well to themselves, and absolve themselves of their sins.

Quote:
26If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is false 27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
worthless.

And where do we find people making vows of silence, and dedicating their lives to the poor? In the Catholic Church.

Quote:
8Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

Ignatian contemplation, or the Mount of Carmel. Again, very Catholic.

Quote:
4But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.

Have you read the Catechism on “Honor thy father and thy mother”? Again, this is very Catholic. But I don’t know of any coherent Protestant teachings on the care of elderly parents. Some Protestants are even encouraged to put their elderly into nursing homes, and let strangers care for them.

And when you consider this from Jesus who is more righteous?

The Catholic Church is often accused of “works righteousness” when it reminds people that we are not only supposed to cry out “Lord. Lord,” but we are also supposed to obey His every commandment - so, again, very Catholic, to be an obedient son and do as you are told, instead of only giving lip-service.

 

[catharina]

It is so far. I have my own family but have to deal with having a protestant wife and trying to teach my children appropiately. Fortunately the diocese has accepted my marriage. I find that the sacrament of reconciliation has been more empowering then I had known.

All Sacraments bring us such unmerited graces. I’m very glad for you that you’ve found special graces and comfort in Reconciliation.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Sambos, it breaks my heart to hear of all the poor examples of Catholics in your own family. I am glad that their poor example has not deterred you from your faith. You are right to stay on the course you are on. Your story makes me grateful for the good examples I have had.

We cannot judge others but I cannot help but wonder about the fitness of people to receive the Holy Eucharist under the circumstances you have described for some members of your family. Do not follow their example! You are doing the right thing!

 

[sambos671]

Sambos, it breaks my heart to hear of all the poor examples of Catholics in your own family. I am glad that their poor example has not deterred you from your faith. You are right to stay on the course you are on. Your story makes me grateful for the good examples I have had.

We cannot judge others but I cannot help but wonder about the fitness of people to receive the Holy Eucharist under the circumstances you have described for some members of your family. Do not follow their example! You are doing the right thing!

Thanks. I praise God in all things. My family’s behavior lead me away from the chuch. Protestants helped me follow Catholic teaching by showing me the truth of mans relationship with God and a need to be personally commited to Christ and living in right relationship to him. Careful study of scriptures and church history has led me back. This is why I believe protestants will return after a time. But it will culminate in a consept of this is as far as we can go as protestants and they will come back. Many here just have a hatred of protestants and vis versa but both extremes are not acceptable to my thoughts. It was wrong for certain priest, bishops, Popes, nobles to live as they did and to mislead the injured catholics into believing the necessity for leaving the Chruch. It was wrong for those injured to leave without humility and perserverance. But God sees all and used this set of events to call those who may never have come into rightreousness to himself. And the Holy Spirit willing they will return to their first faith (even if they were never catholics to begin with). I suggest that Catholics who dispise protestants to remember Jesus’ view of the pharisees. I suggest that protestants who hate Catholics do the same thing. But what ever anyone does lets be honest about what happened. Catholics should not dismiss the error of certain leadership. And their role in the reformation. Protestants should look honestly at church history and not read their own prejudice into it. And most of all not to forget Clements teaching

…Let us therefore, brethren, be of humble mind, laying aside all haughtiness, and pride, and foolishness, and angry feelings; and let us act according to that which is written (for the Holy Spirit saith, “Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, neither let the rich man glory in his riches; but let him that glorieth glory in the Lord, in diligently seeking Him, and doing judgment and righteousness"…It is right, therefore, that we should not leave the post which His will has assigned us. Let us rather offend those men who are foolish, and inconsiderate, and lifted up, and who glory in the pride of their speech, than [offend] God. Let us reverence the Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood was given for us; let us esteem those who have the rule over us; let us honour the aged…Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words…Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole Church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties…Look carefully into the Scriptures, which are the true utterances of the Holy Spirit. Observe that nothing of an unjust or counterfeit character is written in them. There Or, “For.” you will not find that the righteous were cast off by men who themselves were holy.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Name one or two reasons you think God allowed Protestantism.

I think one reason might be that Catholicism is so… difficult, that maybe God wanted there to be an “easier, softer” way that would lead people to Christ (and He knew that many would then be led to the RC Church)?? Just a thought.

Also, i think that Protestants generally focus on different things than Catholics do, different “aspects” of God, things that are nonetheless very important… like, well… i just think that sometimes they are more… friendly… & i feel they may trust in God’s mercy more than a lot of Catholics…

I don’t think God’s responsible for any of this.

Martin Luther just thought the Catholics were being hypocritical and “buying their way into Heaven.” He dumped all the sacraments and the idea of having a pope, so yeah, it probably was a “quick-fix” faith, if you think about it.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[Hislittlelady]

It has nothing to do with taste. And I’m not defensive. I’m stating things as I see them. For instance My father is twice divorced, my Mother plays with Budhism and some wiccanism, my brother is an adulterer and a drug user, my sister is a RCIA teacher yet also has committed adultry. They all say I need to return to the faith because they want me to be “saved” yet this is their lifestyles and not one absents themselves from the Eucharist. There is substantiation for you. And I’m not the only one. There are many catholics who have the same story. So there is an issue. Whether it be Catachesis or not there is an issue. How could I have left the Church if I never knew the church to begin with? When I left I was 15. I did not know one thing the church really taught and I went to perochial school! All I knew was Sunday mass and that I couldn’t receive the Eucharist unless I went to confession on Saturday. Which BTW was used by my family as an excuse to sin friday, confess sat, recieve the Eucharist sunday, just to begin sinning again on monday.

How terribly sad this is. It’s no wonder that you found another means to find Christ. There are so many today that profess to be Catholic but don’t do one single thing to represent themselves to the world as Catholic.

But remember one thing. These family members are making their own sins and they’ve included in their list of sinfulness, chasing you out of the one true faith of Jesus Christ while you were still a boy, not able to fully understand anything about the faith except what you saw on the surface. These sins that they live in is between them and God. They will stand before the throne one day and each man is accountable for himself.

To be a Catholic one must have God’s grace. It’s a very hard and narrow road to live the Catholic life. It’s also a choice. Faith is another matter. That is also a great gift which we either receive or do not receive, but in due time, God is faithful and will give us that gift. Otherwise, what’s it all about? I have tremendous struggles with faith all the time, but I perservere, I pray and I will not cave.

I believe in the teachings of the Catholic church and that’s a start. I returned back to the faith six years ago, after spending a lifetime as a lukewarm Catholic in name only. Oh I went to mass and all that, but I sat at mass and dreamed of what I was going to do for that day. Never was my mind focused on the Eucharist, the gospel, the prayers, or even meditating on the Word. My soul was in a sorry state of affairs. I’m praying and working so hard for God to deliver me and I’m taking baby steps and He’s always there. I can feel him.

This could be a lifetime journey for me. If Mother Teresa had midnight of the soul, who am I compared to her that I should ask for an easy walk in the Faith of our fathers. Jesus told us himself it would not be easy. Some crosses are so heavy for people to carry and until they learn and understand that they must turn to the Lord for help, they will walk a very hard road. He told us to come to Him and to give him our burdens and he would give us rest. He has done this for me. No doubt in my mind since I’ve suffered tragedies in these past years. I feel his soothing warmth and at times I’ve actually sworn I felt my soul lifted right up to heaven with a power so great that it felt like I was in paradise. These are the times when I believe my very being is filled with the holy spirit and I wish I could have the feeling every minute of my life, but I guess this is only a hint of what awaits us.

Once you give yourself to the Lord and ask his guidance, He will guide you in the way you must go. As I stated in a different post of mine, I believe that God calls us in whatever way our heart will understand and this is why all the different Christian denominations.

I hope you will read up on the early church and study and see that the Catholic church right from the start was the exact church instituted by Jesus Himself. Go back and read from the early church fathers, and even amidst all the discord and corruption and heresy, you will see how the Catholic church was formed and why it’s the true church of Jesus Christ.

I pray that God will call you by name and that your heart will hear His call and you will return to the true church of Jesus.

Blessings

 

[catharina]

It seems that a few posters didn’t read sambos’ Posts 181 and 183. He’s made it very clear that he is in the process of returning to the Church and has even has his marriage recognized by the diocesan tribunal. I’m not sure how anybody could have missed the posts. Please read them. Thanks.

 

[Hislittlelady]

It seems that a few posters didn’t read sambos’ Posts 181 and 183. He’s made it very clear that he is in the process of returning to the Church and has even has his marriage recognized by the diocesan tribunal. I’m not sure how anybody could have missed the posts. Please read them. Thanks.

Catharina,
Thank you so much for letting me know. Due to a very busy time schedule I don’t always have time to review all the posts since I have very old parents to take care of, plus grandchildren I see to. But thanks for the reminder anyway. I’m glad to hear that news about Sambos.
God bless you

 

[catharina]

Catharina,
Thank you so much for letting me know. Due to a very busy time schedule I don’t always have time to review all the posts since I have very old parents to take care of, plus grandchildren I see to. But thanks for the reminder anyway. I’m glad to hear that news about Sambos.
God bless you

You’re very welcome. I knew you’d be pleased. It’s such good news for sambos and for the Church. We can rejoice with him. As for you … ahem … wow, are you a busy woman. Prayers for you and yours.

 

[distracted]

Has no rights? What? Its ok to view Catholicism as the only truth but to say no one else has rights? Phah! Nonsense. This kind of thinking led to inappropiate actions that occured in the middle ages. The RCC can no longer be looked at as a Feudal Lord over the lands. Kings are no longer are crowned by the Pope like Charlemagne. And if you’re an american, you have rights no matter what you believe. If you want to take away peoples rights become muslim they will be happy to oblige.

the things that happened in the middle ages are exaggerated and distorted by Protestant history books… There has always been and always will be a serious bias against Catholicism… I was never (for instance) taught about the Catholic missions, not when i was in grade sch, high sc, or even COLLEGE… that part of history was totally left out… The US will admit to doing the Blacks wrong, the Indians, women and others, but it will never admit to doing the Catholics wrong…

My point is that the Inquisition and all those other things that admittedly weren’t right in the Church… were NOT as bad as history makes them out to be. And even if they were, maybe you should read about what Calvin did to people who disagreed with him??? And various others time does not permit to mention…

The RCC was never a “feudal lord”, although i can see where you can get that… from all the anti-Catholic nonsense printed in history books and everywhere else… (let’s not forget the modern media / Hollywood which absolutely abhor the RCC)…

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

From reading the previous pages of posts and reflection, I come away with a revelation: The positive aspect from Protestantism from my experience 500 years after the Protest and reformer period. Is that Protestantism only in the last 100 years, have turned practicing Catholics to research our faith. Protestantism helped me as a Catholic to research my Catholic faith, and found all that the Catholic church teaches and believes is in the bible. Now that said, the other side of this coin reveals a negative, because this “Sola Scriptura” theology takes away from the traditional Christian family upbringing that instills Christian belief and values into the family members first then communities, then societies.

I believe because of Protestantism opposing the Catholic church from her new invented “Sola” theologies and excercising of the “Freedom of free will” to believe outside of Catholicism, took away from Catholic Orthodoxy from the West. Because the traditional Catholic was opposed by biblical protestants contesting the Catholic Apostolic living Traditions, and attacked the Catholics and Christian societies, that families and societies began to remove God from public schools, government buildings, holidays, etc.

Of course protestantism is not all to blame, but the positive aspect from protestantism caused the movement from the Catholic laity to learn scripture, learn Apostolic Sacred Traditions from Sacred Scripture and come closer to God through the Sacraments Jesus instituted including God’s kingdom on earth with a heiarchy in the Catholic magisterium.

If today Protestants, non Catholics would stop speaking, teaching negatively or refrain from protesting the Catholic church, and stand alone on their newly founded doctrines and many scriptural teachings, They will find their numbers deacrease, and the Catholic church reclaim her numbers lost these last 500 years of Protesting the Catholic church.

Many of us Catholics are greatful for the protestant movement because it showed us our Catholic faith is Scriptural as well as Apostolic, because the protestant movement compelled the strong will Catholic to investigate the Catholic teachings from scripture to find them to be “True” and from Jesus Christ these past 2000 years. Without having to be moved by freewill to believe in every wind of doctrine that goes by.

Nothing happens that is not according to God’s will.

Peace

 

[sambos671]

the things that happened in the middle ages are exaggerated and distorted by Protestant history books… There has always been and always will be a serious bias against Catholicism… I was never (for instance) taught about the Catholic missions, not when i was in grade sch, high sc, or even COLLEGE… that part of history was totally left out… The US will admit to doing the Blacks wrong, the Indians, women and others, but it will never admit to doing the Catholics wrong…

My point is that the Inquisition and all those other things that admittedly weren’t right in the Church… were NOT as bad as history makes them out to be. And even if they were, maybe you should read about what Calvin did to people who disagreed with him??? And various others time does not permit to mention…

The RCC was never a "feudal lord", although i can see where you can get that… from all the anti-Catholic nonsense printed in history books and everywhere else… (let’s not forget the modern media / Hollywood which absolutely abhor the RCC)…

That’s not true consider if you will the Papal States. Consider how the Frankish kingdom of Charlemagne had the Pope Crown him and then Otto of the Holy Roman Empire had to beg the Pope for forgiveness in the dead of winter to help maintain his kingdom.

 

[guanophore]

That’s not true consider if you will the Papal States. Consider how the Frankish kingdom of Charlemagne had the Pope Crown him and then Otto of the Holy Roman Empire had to beg the Pope for forgiveness in the dead of winter to help maintain his kingdom.

It is essential to separate the Holy Bride of Christ from the sinful men who have been members of her, and have acted with greed and power as motives in the secular world. This is not the action of the HOly Bride of Christ, and is not right to lay at HIs feet in accusation.

 

[sambos671]

It is essential to separate the Holy Bride of Christ from the sinful men who have been members of her, and have acted with greed and power as motives in the secular world. This is not the action of the HOly Bride of Christ, and is not right to lay at HIs feet in accusation.

You’re right the true members of the Church would not do this but these things did occur by men who were sinners and were leaders Catholic. They are held to their errors. I’m just saying these things occured not sugar coating history or blowing it off. I think it is important for faults to be recognized and spoken of honestly anything else is deception. Things things occured. Does that mean the Chruch is less true? No. But it should be an object lessen for the body to be wary of such leadership. Consider Dante. Catholic as he was he still noted, in his Divine Comedy, that there were priest in hell for “selling salvation”. Now it is an observation that these things happen and we must not be blind to such things and hold each other to a higher standard. I believe that Protestantism has in part done this. Now protestants should never have left the Church like St. Francis, though humiliated by the Pope himself, did not. But God has used it to benefit Catholics as well.

 

[Truthstalker]

It is essential to separate the Holy Bride of Christ from the sinful men who have been members of her, and have acted with greed and power as motives in the secular world. This is not the action of the HOly Bride of Christ, and is not right to lay at HIs feet in accusation.

A good summary of why many of the reformers separated themselves. It brings out the distinction between the visible and the invisible church as well.

 

[Truthstalker]

Yes I agree to a point, but the Protestants of our day have no understanding of this and so, to repeat what I said earlier, God leads all to Him in the best way they can understand. I cannot see now or even in the near future, nor the distant future, how any of these rifts can be repaired. The blame must be placed on the early reformers, not the Protestants of today, since this is how it’s been for generations and for them it is now set in stone. I can’t imagine this ever changing but wish it would. Each much find his way to God and since God allowed and permitted the reformation to take place, including the heresies from the beginning of the church, only he can be the judge of anything contrary to the teaching of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic church.
:coffeeread: :sad_yes:

How irenic. I would like to see the rift repaired. It is all too easy to hurl abuse across the Tiber rather than trying to drain the swamp.

 

[Truthstalker]

I would have to completely disagree with this argument. Let me post just a few Catechism quotes for clarification.

These show the teachings of the Church in regards to the importance of free will contrary to what you stated about official doctrine. It also shows that “worship” of free will is not taught… nor have I heard anyone argue for that point. That is simply a straw-man argument with no justifiable evidence.

Additionally,

Here, it shows that although we may choose positive actions through free will it is only with God’s grace (taking into consideration His sovereignty) that one may truly move towards God. Also, because God allowed us to have free will and allowed us to choose does not discount anything from his sovereignty. He bestowed upon us this gift because He is the only one with the power to do so and because of His divine wisdom. He can take away that gift as freely as He gave it.

Do you believe in predestination?