Why do you think God allowed Protestantism?

[una_fides]

Thank You, St Ignatius was the one that Polycarp was with that helped John before he died to write Revelations? If that’s the one I think you are the right church they were with John until he died. I read a book on John and remember their names. Did the church split because it was to dogmatic or it had too much authority? Nancy

Neither. People have left the Church for many reasons, and the issue is rather complex. One can argue that the reason people broke away from the Catholic Church was due to their pride in thinking that they knew more than the Bride of Christ. The principle characteristic of pride is that it does not want to submit to the authority of another but wants to be under its own authority. Hence, protestants broke away from the authority of the Church and replaced it with their own private authority of interpreting Scripture based on what they wanted it to mean. There was also a lot of politics involved in people’s choices to break away from the Church’s rule. The Church also contained sinful men and was in need of moral (NOT doctrinal) reform. Trent helped fix that, but the Church is always in need of holier members.

 

[look3467]

It leads people to be part of his Church, outside of which there is no salvation. >>>una fides

You have just stated what the Catholic Church demands as dogma for the salvation of the soul as: apart from the church there is no salvation,

Now, I will state the same demand dogma, but from the protestant view.

If one does not accept Jesus as ones personal savior, one can not be saved.(Directed at Castholics and all other religious)

One says got be a member of the Catholic Church plus Christ to gain salvation.

The other says that only by receiving Jesus as one’s personal Savior can one be saved.

Catholic’s say non Catholics are lost without the church.

Protestants say that Catholics can not be saved because they rely on the church as the vehicle and maybe, just maybe Jesus may have mercy based on good behavior, they might, I say might gain salvation.

Now, I’ve been on both sides of the issue and I can tell you that I accepted neither one as truth.

There had to be something that either side was not seeing as being Gods view of things.

One can not know what God’s views are unless one has a good knowledge of the bible as a whole, because there is where a picture is painted of God’s works.

Beginning with creation (Genesis) the Father creates in perfection, by saying “saw that it was good”.

In order for God to create humanity in His image, as like He is knowing good and evil, He gifted humanity with intellect.

The ability to gain knowledge and reason with that knowledge makes humanity is own god. (Ability to choose)

The ability to become as like god is what separated us from God which is as a consequence death of the spirit.

God explained it to us by symbolism, the trees, the fruit and the serpent.

All was designed exactly in that manner and flawless.

Correction was in order from the beginning to save that which God created that became lost due to the intellect abilities of humanity but at a predetermined time in human history would God initiate that correction.

The coming of Jesus to save that which was lost from the beginning, as the Savior of the world.

Here then lies the answer to the salvation of our souls.

It is not by our works, or by the church, any church, any religious belief, or any particular kind of humanity but all humanity.

Since Jesus died and paid for, that which was lost, meaning every soul after Adam, makes every soul precious in His sight.

Hence the definition of love defined as “love your enemies, demonstrated by Jesus when He allowed Himself to be in subjection to the rulers of His day that persecuted Him, punished Him and crucified Him to the cross.

If His enemies, the ones who crucified Him were forgiven by Him, mean’s only that salvation of their souls was totally in Gods hands.

Had He not forgiven them, then we could truly say that our way, meaning the church way, or in Jesus only way, salvation can be had.

If, we are to be united in one spirit we must understand God’s view of every soul as precious in His sight, whether it is the enemy, a non believer, or a non member of the church.

To debate, discuss and hold to one view is to divide the word of God to our own understanding.

Hence: the many differing beliefs.

My hope here is to help bridge the differences by making love the issue in which is what Jesus demonstrated to all.

I do not want anybody to change memberships, but to consider love first as their basis for judgment in understanding the differences in all of us.

Understand that good can not be born in a state of good, but in a state of evil.

Evil is the teacher in giving us the experience to do good.

There can be no day if there is no night to define it.

Hence God is both lord of the day and the night.

Psa 74:16 The day is thine, the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun.

Our understanding of Gods love is limited by what told us, how it is exercised and to whom it should apply.

By going directly to God in prayer, having read the bible once, twice and many other times, God will give us understanding without clouds to distort the view.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[jmcrae]

One says got be a member of the Catholic Church plus Christ to gain salvation.

It’s not “plus” anything - Christ Himself established the Catholic Church and identified it as being His own Body, here on the earth. If we are not joined with Christ’s body, then in what sense can we say that we are joined with Christ? Is it even possible to be joined with Christ, without being joined to His Body?

The other says that only by receiving Jesus as one’s personal Savior can one be saved.

And how does one do this, without also, at the same time, joining the Catholic Church, Christ’s Body on earth? It is not simply a matter of thinking the right thoughts, or praying the right prayers - Jesus established a Church because He wanted us to be members of it.

 

[una_fides]

It’s not “plus” anything - Christ Himself established the Catholic Church and identified it as being His own Body, here on the earth. If we are not joined with Christ’s body, then in what sense can we say that we are joined with Christ? Is it even possible to be joined with Christ, without being joined to His Body?

And how does one do this, without also, at the same time, joining the Catholic Church, Christ’s Body on earth? It is not simply a matter of thinking the right thoughts, or praying the right prayers - Jesus established a Church because He wanted us to be members of it.

Well put. He established the Church and made it an obligation on all to join it. The only way someone can be excused of such an obligation is if he or she be invincibly ignorant of it (not as common as some might think as pride often hinders IMHO) in which case the person needs to live a life of grace, also a difficult feat without the sacraments on account of human nature and pride.

 

[distracted]

Search out the words fiery serpent and you will see that God uses it with Moses, fiery serpent on a pole, Moses rod turning into a snake and the cloven tongues at Pentecost.

Does that not tell us something about the serpents identity?

Good and evil is just knowledge that defines us as gods, when we digest it. Our eyes are opened and we find ourselves less than perfect.
And only He who enabled us to know good and evil can forgive us of any sins.

Peace>>>AJ

What religion are you or what were you raised… (etc)?

we not only need to be forgiven, but purified and the Bible speaks of this (1 Cor 3:13, etc). I recently found out from a reliable source (can’t recall exactly what source was, though…but i don’t read junk… ) that the souls in Purgatory abide with Jesus near the Blessed Sacrament… meaning inside the Catholic Church 24/7. Do you know about the Real Presence?

anyway, i had no trouble believing that since i have always had this… how do i say it?? almost terrified feeling while There (when Sacrament is unexposed)… & couldn’t figure out why since i was not in serious sin. Of course, ALL sin is serious to God… but anyway… If you want to know how pure God is and how pure we have to be made b4 getting into Heaven… go There… and stay more than an hour…

As Jesus said in the Garden: “Could you not watch with me one hour?”

 

[una_fides]

…There had to be something that either side was not seeing as being Gods view of things.
One can not know what God’s views are unless one has a good knowledge of the bible as a whole, because there is where a picture is painted of God’s works.
…
To debate, discuss and hold to one view is to divide the word of God to our own understanding.
Hence: the many differing beliefs.
…
Evil is the teacher in giving us the experience to do good.
…
By going directly to God in prayer, having read the bible once, twice and many other times, God will give us understanding without clouds to distort the view.

Why did both sides have to be wrong and you be the one to discover the “hidden” truth? Protestants make the same error when they claim the Catholic Church had been in error for over 1500 years until they finally figured out how to interpret the Scriptures correctly, oh and conveniently for them, the Scriptures said that they were the ones who were to interpret them rather than the successors to the apostles, the leaders of the Church that Christ founded, the Church stained with the blood of the martyrs, the same Church that gave them the Scriptures that they now tried to use against her. Did you ever consider that Christ promised to be with his Church to guide her and lead her and prevent her from teaching error until the end of time? (Mat 28:20)

And how can you assume that you have the correct interpretation of Scripture? There are thousands upon thousands of other denominations out there interpreting different things all using the same Scriptures, all claiming divine guidance in sincerity, and all possessing experts backing up their doctrines. How can you know that your interpretation is correct? For this reason, Christ gave us the Church. So that we can know the truth and the truth set us free.

Here is an article I stumbled upon concerning St. Augustine’s approach to Scriptural interpretation: catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0009fea5.asp
He was one of the fathers instrumental in determining the canon of Scripture as to which books should and should not be included. Had he proposed another book and the fathers agreed, you would be reading from that book right now thinking it to be inspired as well. I’d take his advice as well as the advice of the Church which gave him the authority he possessed as a bishop.

 

[una_fides]

I recently found out from a reliable source (can’t recall exactly what source was, though…but i don’t read junk… ) that the souls in Purgatory abide with Jesus near the Blessed Sacrament… meaning inside the Catholic Church 24/7.

I thought we already went over this before. You don’t know the source, and St. Thomas Aquinas and the other Latin fathers clearly taught otherwise. Please stop stating this as if it were a fact especially when you are not able to site your source.

I appreciate your sincerity and trying to help and sharing your thoughts and such, but again, if you can’t site a source and if the other fathers taught otherwise, you should not be making such statements.

 

[guanophore]

That is why I said search it out and come to your own conclusions.

We are not all at the same level of understanding, but we can help each other out in our searching.

Peace>>>AJ

This is the same error that Adam and Eve fell into at the Garden.

Instead of accepting what God had revealed,and being content with His revelation, they wanted to figure it out on their own.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Name one or two reasons you think God allowed Protestantism.

I think one reason might be that Catholicism is so… difficult, that maybe God wanted there to be an “easier, softer” way that would lead people to Christ (and He knew that many would then be led to the RC Church)?? Just a thought.

Also, i think that Protestants generally focus on different things than Catholics do, different “aspects” of God, things that are nonetheless very important… like, well… i just think that sometimes they are more… friendly… & i feel they may trust in God’s mercy more than a lot of Catholics…

Presuming the RCC is the one true Church:

1. God knew there would be time when most Catholics would start straying from the Church and become worldly in thier thinking. So He allowed Protestantism to happen, knowing that the devout Protestants would inspire envy in luke-warm Catholics and make them become devout again.
2. Protestantism simplifies the Gospel message, making it easier for people to grasp in some instances.

 

[guanophore]

That is all fine good and proper for you but not necessarily for everyone else.

This sounds like relativism. There is one “Truth” for Catholics and another “truth” for others?

Therefore, the only good thing that you can do is to exercises the love of God by your own actions first rather than to promote the institution first.

This is not how Jesus set things up. Everything a member of the Body does affects all of the others.

Because faith lies not in the Catholic Church but in the Christ of the Catholic Church.

Fortunately there is no separation betweent the two.

Then if faith in Christ is the point, is it not available to anyone seeking Him from the heart?

Yes. It is available through the Church.

If from the heart, don’t you think God will open up the channels by which that individual can come to further knowledge, whether it be the Catholic church or a protestant church?

Yes, but that does not mean there is more than one “truth”.

God is not limited only but to our own imaginations.

Does that mean we can “imagine” whatever Truth suits ourselves?

Shall we allow Him to work through us by our faithful exercise of His love?

Absolutely!

Yes, the one who confirms all that I learn is the Holy Spirit whether I gain knowledge from the Catholic Church or Protestant churches.

so, as long as you are convinced that what you believe is what is from the HS all is well?

Again, are we limiting God?

Yes. Making oneself the standard is the same sin Adam and Eve fell into at the Garden.

true for the most part, but consider the trials and tribulations the Church has gone through as it present form.

God knew the limitations of mankind that is why His real church is spiritual where nothing can defile it.

I agree that the real church is spiritual where nothing can defile it. However, that does not mean Jesus intended for it to be invisible.

You and I are safely members of that spiritual church, and one that will stand true regardless of what mess we create here on earth.

Why create a mess at all? If this can be avoided by following the commandments of Jesus?

The word can come from any place, except the Holy Spirit gives understanding, nothing will stick as truth.

The question is, how is what the “HS” telling you different than what the “HS” is telling others. If it is all from the HS, then would it all not be in unity? How can opposing points all be from the HS?

First I was born into the Catholic belief, was an alter boy, loved going to church and searching all I could about God.
At the age of about 12 I was introduced to the Baptist church of which then the bible was introduced to me for the first time.

This is similar to my own experience. Howeve, looking back, it was not really “introduced to me for the first time” as I thought, because I had been hearing it at Mass all my life. I confess, though, that I never read it on my own outside of Church.

There I found a gold mine of what I hoped to find about the God that I loved.

My faith was still the same in both places but has being molded and shaped by the Holy Spirit as it has through trial and error confirmed in me His love by granting me revelation into His word to my greatest Joy and His gratification.

Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.

Wisdomseeker, I stand on a firm foundation, a solid rock that can not be moved, one where the wind and the waves can not affect a change, and that rock is Jesus and not the catholic Church.

News flash, look. The two cannot be separated. Jesus is One with His Bride.

Can you stand on your own two feet on that same rock, independently from the Catholic Church?

Such a position would be impossible. One would have to call Jesus a liar to do this.

I’m not wanting you to diminish the importance of the Catholic Church, but to affirm your standing on that solid rock which is the true and real church of Christ.

Continue your work in the Catholic Church but promote Christ first, and let them find out who you are.

It seems that the fruit of Protestantism is that of separation and division, even where it is not necessary!

you are welcome to participate in CAF, look, even if you are hostile to the Catholic Church. Hopefully you will be able to get over it. But it is not allowed here for you to encourage Catholics to leave the Church.

 

[guanophore]

Thank You, St Ignatius was the one that Polycarp was with that helped John before he died to write Revelations? If that’s the one I think you are the right church they were with John until he died. I read a book on John and remember their names. Did the church split because it was to dogmatic or it had too much authority? Nancy

No, the church split because human beings have a tendency to be greedy, prideful, ignorant and selfish.

 

[wisdomseeker]

QUOTE=look3467;4699459]Does not your handle address that issue? w-i-s-d-o-m-s-e-e-k-e-r?

Or do you know everything there is to know already?

yes i know everything there is for me to know. remember the Church.

In all loving kindness, knowledge of God is unsearchable to the point where we could never stop if we started.

i sense that you are very emotional. remember He gave us a Church. she is the teacher. for our Lord review to her what to teach the people.

But, in our searchings, we are blessed by, because God is genuinely interested in our interest in Him.

your search should also include the Church. the Church is very important to our Lord. He is the builder of the Church.

Let us learn together?

you contradict yourself a lot. you need to read your posts. they are very negative and you are constantly accusing the CC of not knowing anything about SS.
if the CC does not know anything about the SS, can you imagine you. since she gave you the Bible. or do you believe that the Church compiled the Bible so those who separated themselves from the Church could enterpret it better? you fail to make the connection between the Church and SS.

**
12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.**

 

[look3467]

It’s not “plus” anything - Christ Himself established the Catholic Church and identified it as being His own Body, here on the earth. If we are not joined with Christ’s body, then in what sense can we say that we are joined with Christ? Is it even possible to be joined with Christ, without being joined to His Body? >>>jmcrae

Can we separate the things which are spiritual from that which is physical?

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

The physical is where we are, whether it be at home or at a church, but the spirit of God has no physical home, unless, it be in your heart.

And if it is in your heart, then it is separate from this world because it is a spiritual.

So, if we are going to talk things of God, lets us talk about the spiritual nature of His Kingdom and not mix the two as if it were one.

Remember, when it was first mixed (Married) As in :Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The mix is the marriage between the breath of God (Adam) and the vessel of clay (Eve) resulting in separation from God=death.

To emphasize the Catholic church as the one and only way is to say that Christ alone (Spiritual) can not save unless one belongs to that physical church and not the spiritual.

So, I plead, as a member of the spiritual church, the body of believers, which is spiritual, that we as believers enjoy the fellowship of brotherhood in Christ.

For we both, as believers belong to the same spiritual church of which Christ is the head, and not necessarily the physical.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[MelanieAnne]

AJ, the Catholic Church is not a building or a religious organization. The people are the Church. When Jesus calls for one church, one body of believers, he’s talking about the people, not a building.

The decision of the Protestants, and I was one once so I know something about Protestantism, to separate from the church ~ the body of believers ~ destroyed the unity. We may have some things in common, but there is no unity.

One of the things that keeps getting advanced, but I haven’t seen an answer to, pertains to the Holy Spirit. Since you frequently refer to the Holy Spirit, and since I presume you agree that the Holy Spirit, with God and Jesus, are one in the Trinity, I have to ask ~ how is it that the Holy Spirit can confirm one “truth” to me, and another “truth” to you, and still another “truth” to someone else? Isn’t that, more, an example of each of us deciding for ourselves and then deciding that the Holy Spirit confirms our belief? Kinda convenient at times!

If there is only one Holy Spirit, there can be only one message of truth. Obviously, if there are thousands of sects/denominations, and each claims the confirmation of their belief by the Holy Spirit, more than a few have a problem. There can be only one.

 

[look3467]

What religion are you or what were you raised… (etc)?>>>distracted

Religion, you mean mankind’s belief structure? None!

I was raised first as a Catholic, made my first Holy Communion, served as an alter boy, attended Saint Mary’s school and for one school season, I had communion every school day before school. As an alter boy, had my feet washed and kissed by the priest symbolic of Christ.

I always felt close to God and He always acknowledged my feelings with a confidence of security.

When my parents moved away to another city, my dad introduced me, at age 12, to a Baptist Church.
There I was introduced to the bible for the first time, where before, the only thing close to the bible was the church missal and Catechism.

I fell in love with Christ because of His word (Bible) and at age 13, I went forward to declare Jesus as my personal savior of my soul.

I accepted His Gift of salvation, and since, I have been a member of His spiritual Church, not the Baptist church, not the Catholic Church, but His spiritual church which is a church not made with human hands. (Physical)

I owe my life first to Christ who as a child instilled in me a desire to seek for Him, and then to the Catholic Church for providing for me a place to exercise what was in me, and to the Baptist church who introduced me to the bible.

Not only that, but God has taken me through a wonderful journey through the various denominational beliefs in the goal of education me on the virtue of love.

“I am who I am” because of Him, and without Him I am nothing.

I my views are, in my understanding, views from the top down and not from the bottom up.

Do you know about the Real Presence?>>>Distracted

After all I’ve said above is there no doubt?

If you want to know how pure God is and how pure we have to be made b4 getting into Heaven… go There… and stay more than an hour…>>>distracted

It seems to me that understanding on your part is lacking.

Don’t you know that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags?

By what righteousness do you speak of, if you can answer correctly, then we are both brothers and or sisters in Christ.

As Jesus said in the Garden: “Could you not watch with me one hour?”>>>distracted

The Apostles, were asleep as a picture of Christianity asleep in a world of darkness, because it is clouded with so much manmade requirements, practices, traditions, that it is as if we were all asleep in the furtherance of the Gospel of Christ.

If we awake from that sleep and declare the love of Christ in our daily walk, we shall remain awake while Jesus, via His Holy Spirit works to draw all men unto Himself, as is His prayer.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[distracted]

I thought we already went over this before. You don’t know the source, and St. Thomas Aquinas and the other Latin fathers clearly taught otherwise. Please stop stating this as if it were a fact especially when you are not able to site your source.

I appreciate your sincerity and trying to help and sharing your thoughts and such, but again, if you can’t site a source and if the other fathers taught otherwise, you should not be making such statements.

i didn’t state it as fact…

and yet, i will that i KNOW the souls are There… Whether i can prove it or not is another thing… but then, try “proving” anything that has to do with your faith in God…

 

[distracted]

It seems to me that understanding on your part is lacking.

Don’t you know that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags?

it seems to me that understanding on your part is lacking. At the Real Presence, it is not our righteousness that is so present, but HIS perfection… purity/holiness…

I totally believe that what i go through when There is Purgatory… I really don’t care if other people believe that or not… I am here on Earth to work out my “own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12) and i find that being in the Real Presence for as long as possible… listening, surrendering, seeking HIs will, getting purged… is the very best way, or at least one of the very best ways… to do that…

 

[una_fides]

i didn’t state it as fact…

and yet, i will that i KNOW the souls are There… Whether i can prove it or not is another thing… but then, try “proving” anything that has to do with your faith in God…

no problem. as long as you admit that it’s your own personal opinion (even if you firmly believe it that’s all it is) and that you are not basing this theory on any public revelation whatsoever.

 

[una_fides]

it seems to me that understanding on your part is lacking. At the Real Presence, it is not our righteousness that is so present, but HIS perfection… purity/holiness…

I totally believe that what i go through when There is Purgatory… I really don’t care if other people believe that or not… I am here on Earth to work out my “own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12) and i find that being in the Real Presence for as long as possible… listening, surrendering, seeking HIs will, getting purged… is the very best way, or at least one of the very best ways… to do that…

Ok perhaps here is where you may have misunderstood the author or whoever you read concerning purgatory. The state of the souls in purgatory is not the same as the souls on earth, as the two are in completely different realms. To be in purgatory is to be deceased. You cannot possibly enter purgatory with your corporeal body. This is the explicit teaching of the Church taken from the deposit of faith. There are three states of the Church: the Church militant (on earth), the Church suffering (in pugatory), and the Church triumphant (in heaven). I think what you are meaning and what you may have read was that it is a type of purgatory in the sense of suffering and being made holy. Yes, we can be purified here on earth and that is the point. We suffer and we are purged of our sins now so that we will not have to be purged in purgatory later (where it is more difficult and painful than here on earth). Hopefully this helps to clarify.

 

[distracted]

Ok perhaps here is where you may have misunderstood the author or whoever you read concerning purgatory.

i doubt i have misunderstood a thing… JUst because you don’t see things the way i do does not make you right and me wrong…

The state of the souls in purgatory is not the same as the souls on earth, as the two are in completely different realms. To be in purgatory is to be deceased.

not true… I define Purgatory broadly, to mean a condition of being purged… and as one saint (or many?) said we should begin our Purgatory on Earth… and Christians who love Jesus DO that when they attempt to live His teachings in a world that generally does NOT… all suffering can be Purgatorial if given to God as expiation…

fYou cannot possibly enter purgatory with your corporeal body.

Not true… I’m there… & no one will convince me otherwise… I entered Purgatory when i began praying the rosary year ago… and as stated, it is all the more intense while at the Real Presence…(for a long time).

. . Yes, we can be purified here on earth and that is the point. We suffer and we are purged of our sins now so that we will not have to be purged in purgatory later (where it is more difficult and painful than here on earth). Hopefully this helps to clarify.

i believe that no matter how much we suffer on Earth, it is nothing compared to Purgatory and most people who go to Heaven go to purg 1st… the saints will verify this. Purg is excrutiating… and that’s how i know i’m in Purg @ the Blessed Sacrament… Again, maybe i can’t prove it to anyone’s satisfaction, but oh well… I can’t prove that I exist to those who can’t see me… can’t prove i am loved by Christ… but know that i am…