Why do you think God allowed Protestantism?

[nancy_dalrymple]

Reconciliation is the normative means of personal forgiveness, not interpersonal forgiveness. Christ is the only mediator between God and men, but the presbyters (the priests) are His instruments He uses to confect the Sacraments of the Church.

Have you ever read the Early Church Fathers?

No I can’t say I did. I will look it up on the net tonight Thank You Nancy

 

[Matariel]

No I can’t say I did. I will look it up on the net tonight Thank You Nancy

Okay. Good luck with your studies.

The Early Church Fathers were tremendously helpful to me personally.

Here’s a helpful link:

staycatholic.com/early_church_fathers.htm

 

[guanophore]

Unless you know what it means you won’t see it as I do.

Thank God for that! Who needs such a bizarre invention?

And did they? Hello?

No, which means they did not follow what Moses instructed.

If Jesus had agreed with them, would He have been offered?

That is irrelevant. You are saying they were forgiven because they were following the law, which they did not.

Of course not, they accused Him of blasphemy, not that He was.

They bore false witness, which is NOT following the Law.

God blinded them can’t you see why?

Sure, but that was not my contention. You were trying to say that they acted like they were expected by the Law and by Moses to act.

Clue: The Jews were the only ones who knew about God from the rest of the world.
The rest of the world knew within themselves that there was something greater than themselves but knew nothing about it.
This placed the Jews in total advantage or sy in firs place.

All they reason they are more culpable when they rejected Him.

Example would be Esau and Jacob, where Esau (Jews) was the first born with inheritance rights and Jacob (Rest of the world) had none.
Well, Jesus a type of Jacob stole the birth right from Esau (Jews) and of both Esau and Jacob made one body, and that one body is the body of believers, the church.

I don’t know where you are getting this strange stuff, but you might want to consider learning from the Apostles.

Please understand, that under the current teachings of the church, or churches, you will not find to see it the way I told you.

Right. Such a “seeing” constitutes “a different gospel” which we were instructed to reject.

All churches are structured to keep people in line by limiting knowledge.

This is a lie, from the father of lies. Jesus founded His Church on the Truth.

So, to argue consistently from the stand point of a religious organizations point of view can only lead to divisions.

Well, I suppose that could be true. However, we argue from the point of view of what the Apostles taught. i dont’ think they saw themselves as a "religious organization:.

But to see Jesus clear and plainly as the Savior of the world, divisions matter nothing.

This is not what the Word of God says.

Why are you here on CAF?

 

[look3467]

No, which means they did not follow what Moses instructed.>>>guanophore

Unless your willing to look at the reason why they were following the mosaic laws, you will not see why Jesus had to cut them off.

Just imagine, you for instance, that you were following the laws of the Catholic Church very strictly, and I came to you and said, look guanophore, you can no longer go through the Catholic Church to get to God, unless you go through me.

What suppose your reaction would be, considering that you were strongly embedded in the traditions and the beliefs of the Catholic Church.

Suppose one of the laws of the Catholic church were to put to death (stone)any body who would bring another gospel, especially one that would require all Catholics to come through me.

I don’t think that there would be any hesitation on your part to do away with me?

Get my point?

The law was added to add degree to sin and to condemn all who would not meet its requirements.

The Ten Commandments were required to be kept by the Israelite people to the end that stoning to death could be administered for breaking them.

All that was for a greater purpose, and that being that mankind could not claim to be able to achieve the degree of righteousness needed to enter heaven, because the laws were to severe.

The only way to correct that situation, condition was for God to fulfill His own requirement with His own righteousness and grant, give, His righteousness to all mankind without the law.

The Levi Priesthood were given the task of offering the sacrificial animal to cover the sins of the people.

Only to the Israelite people was this required.

Now, having painted a picture of the arrangement God made with the nation of Israel, it’s prophets, its laws and it’s patriarchs, we now come to the point where Jesus comes on the seen.

Remember, that God instituted the laws, chose Abraham, Moses and all the rest of the prophets to adhere strictly to His laws as given and then declare to them that the Lord God is one God.

Apart from Him there is no other.

Well, here comes Jesus, the sacrificial lamp of God, to be offered up as a sacrifice, for His people and for the rest of the world as well.

Do you think that if the Israelite High priests would have fallen head over heels for Jesus, would they have still crucified Him?

How then was God to cause them to reject Jesus so that Jesus could be offered up for the salvation of the world?

By blinding them with the requirements of the law to where the law became their absolute adherence that they could not see passed it to what God needed to do.

If you can see it, you will have understood what Gods works were, are and continuing to be.

Had God not blinded them, then rightly, they should be condemned.

But as it was, they knew not what they were doing except to follow what God intended them to do.

Therefore, they are made righteous for following Gods requirements after Jesus had being offered up, did Jesus say, “Father forgiven them for they know not what they do”.

As long as you keep the Catholic Church as your fortress, your refuge and remember Christ as often as you will, you are doing what you believe is correct and are safe from the voices and actions of the world around you.

I, on the other hand am secure in my beliefs, grounded on the rock of my salvation Jesus, and I shall not be moved, when the tides, the winds of the storms try to take me, Jesus will strengthen me.

With my understanding, you and I will meet someday in His presence because we both acknowledge Him as God, but with your understanding, should I be worried?

Pease>>>AJ

 

[guanophore]

Why am I, not surprised that you are not surprised?

Because I understand your position!

Really? What position is that?

Because you are limited in spiritual knowledge and I say that kindly.

Peace>>>AJ

Why thank you AJ! That is the nicest thing anyone has said to me all day.

If I agreed with your rendition, would that be evidence that I have adequate spiritual knowledge.

 

[guanophore]

Unifides,Thank You very much I do have a question I looked up Mortal sin and unless I become a nun or a priest how can you live without being condemned to hell every day?

It would be a fallacy to think that those who have become eunuchs for the Kingdom are in any less danger than the rest of us to fall prey to mortal sin.

The nature of sin has not changed, nancy, harry or whoever y’all are. Sin separates us from God. Because of the Fall, we have a sin nature that inclines us toward sin.

There is so much we cannot do .Are we not sanctified by grace?I would have to live in a vaccuum.

Yes! We cannot deliver ourselves from sin, and it is only by grace that we are sanctified. He is able to keep us from stumbling, and if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us.

We are inthe world, but not “of” it. We need not live in a vacuum, just remain connected to His sanctifying grace. We are to be more perfect than the scribes and pharisees.

Just being in the forum sometimes goes from discussion to a very disagreable conversation,and you know what I mean. Didn’t Jesus say take my yoke upon you that it was easy and his burdens light? Nancy

“Light” means that it fits well. He said that we are to take up our cross, and follow Him. We are to put to death what is in us that is not of God.

of all my years knowing about Catholics, purgatory was a place where sinners were sent after death so that the survivors would pray them out of there into heaven.

Masses, church services were bought with a price to be done in favor of the supposed imprisoned individual.

You poor thing. It sounds like you do not understand Catholicism any better now than you did then!

Good understanding and one which is in line with my views.

I think this answers the question I posted above. A good understanding is one which comes into line with your views.

 

[guanophore]

How can you come to that conclusion? I am not living in sin,what am I doing wrong?

The post was general, and was not about you, or directed to you. It is interesting that you took it so personal.

 I'm just not affiliated to any church.

Well, there is a sin right there! You have forsaken the assembly with the faithful!

I read the bible study and was a catholic went Baptist.

Well, let’s be honest. You were never really Catholic…

You were probably never really Baptist, either.

They are good people but i don't beleive in the rapture. I beleive those who endure untill the end will be saved.;)  Nancy

Well, I suppose if you keep following your itching ears, eventually you will come across a group that believes just like you!

 How can you judge by church affiliation,judge not lest you be judged.

No one said anything at ll about church affiliation. She was talking about the benefits that cannot be accessed by those who forsake the Church that Jesus founded.

 

[guanophore]

Why does he say not to let the sun set before you go to ask forgiveness from the one you hurt?

He says no such thing. Did you write your own Bible too?

We are able to do this without man because Christ is the only mediator between God and man. And he taught us how to pray with the Our Father.

Can anyone else reading this post make any sense out of what this means?

I just asked my husband if he would forgive anyone who ever did wrong to him in his life and he said yes and he asked me the same and I said yes so what ever is loost on earth is loosed in heaven.

I suppose whatever you imagine to be true, and tell one another is true, then becomes True? Can you get the economy turned around using this principle? You will have a very grateful nation! Please look harry in the eye right now, and tell one another that the recession will be reversed at the stroke of midight tonight! I am sure this will work.

Tell me what the priest can do that we cant do ourselves?

A priest can do little for you in your present state of rebellion. He will pray for you that you come back to the Church that Jesus founded, and he will take all of our prayers of that nature in offering to God.

Can the priest make the one we offended forgive us? no! And neither can I.

Jesus ordained priests and gave them certain specific authority. One of them was to retain the sins of the unrepentant.

So we are in the same place,for God is no respector of man.Who ever is high on earth will be low in heaven.Tell me why Christ say's these things and man say's differnt? Thank You Nancy

God has different callings and different gifts for different people. Not everyone receives the same gift or vocation.

Furthermore, priests are not “higher” than anyone else. They have responsibility to care for the flock.

 

[guanophore]

Unless your willing to look at the reason why they were following the mosaic laws, you will not see why Jesus had to cut them off.

That is irrelevant to the subject. The point was made that they were excused/forgiven because they were being “good Jews” and following the Law. this is a falsehood. Changing the subject will not make the premise less false. It is possible to follow the Mosaic Laws and be righteous. Jesus did this, as well as others.

Just imagine, you for instance, that you were following the laws of the Catholic Church very strictly, and I came to you and said, look guanophore, you can no longer go through the Catholic Church to get to God, unless you go through me.

You are creating a false dichotomy. Everything that was written in the Law, and the Psalms, and the Prophets pointed to Christ.

What suppose your reaction would be, considering that you were strongly embedded in the traditions and the beliefs of the Catholic Church.

You are assuming that these traditions and beliefs are somehow separate from the person of Christ, which is a false dichotomy. Being embedded in them means being embedded in Christ.

Suppose one of the laws of the Catholic church were to put to death (stone)any body who would bring another gospel, especially one that would require all Catholics to come through me.

There is an essential element missing from your scenario. Jesus was sent to them by the Father. They did not recognize the time of their visitation. They did not reject Jesus because they were good Law abiding Jews. they rejected Him because they WERENt!

They were faithless,a nd practiced a religion devoid of Power. They could not see Him because their hearts were not open to what was in Moses, who prophesied of Him.

I don’t think that there would be any hesitation on your part to do away with me?

Obviously, you don’t know me at all. You also do not understand the Catholic faith. We have received the teachings of Jesus, who said that we must remove first the log from our own eyes. So, I would be busy with my chain saw.

Get my point?

Yes, it contradicts Scripture and Apostolic teaching.

The law was added to add degree to sin and to condemn all who would not meet its requirements.

It was also a tutor to lead people to Christ. they did not accept the tutoring. They were Lawbreakers.

Do you think that if the Israelite High priests would have fallen head over heels for Jesus, would they have still crucified Him?

No. But my objection was your assertion that they were following the law at the time.

How then was God to cause them to reject Jesus so that Jesus could be offered up for the salvation of the world?

God did not cause this. They chose to reject Him. They did not receive Him because they rejected God’s purpose for themselves.

By blinding them with the requirements of the law to where the law became their absolute adherence that they could not see passed it to what God needed to do.

They did not have faith in God. It was their lack of faith that was blinding them.

If you can see it, you will have understood what Gods works were, are and continuing to be.

You have strayed from the point, again. You asserted that they were forgiven by Jesus from the cross because they were good Jews, acting Lawfully.

Had God not blinded them, then rightly, they should be condemned.

They were condemed already, because they did not believe. They would die in their sins if they did not come to Him.

But as it was, they knew not what they were doing except to follow what God intended them to do.

Jesus was talking about the Romans who were driving in the nails.

Therefore, they are made righteous for following Gods requirements after Jesus had being offered up, did Jesus say, “Father forgiven them for they know not what they do”.

The Jews were not made righteous through this forgiveness. It was not directed to the Jews who handed Him over, and were not present.

The Jews did NOT follow God’s requirements, which was to believe in the One whom He sent.

As long as you keep the Catholic Church as your fortress, your refuge and remember Christ as often as you will, you are doing what you believe is correct and are safe from the voices and actions of the world around you.

I wish this were really true. However, the world impinges upon us daily, as we live in a culture of death, and are surrounded by evil on every side.

I, on the other hand am secure in my beliefs, grounded on the rock of my salvation Jesus, and I shall not be moved, when the tides, the winds of the storms try to take me, Jesus will strengthen me.

More power to you! What are you doing here?

With my understanding, you and I will meet someday in His presence because we both acknowledge Him as God, but with your understanding, should I be worried?

Pease>>>AJ

All I can say is that I do worry about your understanding.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

That is irrelevant to the subject. The point was made that they were excused/forgiven because they were being “good Jews” and following the Law. this is a falsehood. Changing the subject will not make the premise less false. It is possible to follow the Mosaic Laws and be righteous. Jesus did this, as well as others.

You are creating a false dichotomy. Everything that was written in the Law, and the Psalms, and the Prophets pointed to Christ.

You are assuming that these traditions and beliefs are somehow separate from the person of Christ, which is a false dichotomy. Being embedded in them means being embedded in Christ.

There is an essential element missing from your scenario. Jesus was sent to them by the Father. They did not recognize the time of their visitation. They did not reject Jesus because they were good Law abiding Jews. they rejected Him because they WERENt!

They were faithless,a nd practiced a religion devoid of Power. They could not see Him because their hearts were not open to what was in Moses, who prophesied of Him.

Obviously, you don’t know me at all. You also do not understand the Catholic faith. We have received the teachings of Jesus, who said that we must remove first the log from our own eyes. So, I would be busy with my chain saw.

Yes, it contradicts Scripture and Apostolic teaching.

It was also a tutor to lead people to Christ. they did not accept the tutoring. They were Lawbreakers.

No. But my objection was your assertion that they were following the law at the time.

God did not cause this. They chose to reject Him. They did not receive Him because they rejected God’s purpose for themselves.

They did not have faith in God. It was their lack of faith that was blinding them.

You have strayed from the point, again. You asserted that they were forgiven by Jesus from the cross because they were good Jews, acting Lawfully.

They were condemed already, because they did not believe. They would die in their sins if they did not come to Him.

Jesus was talking about the Romans who were driving in the nails.

The Jews were not made righteous through this forgiveness. It was not directed to the Jews who handed Him over, and were not present.

The Jews did NOT follow God’s requirements, which was to believe in the One whom He sent.

I wish this were really true. However, the world impinges upon us daily, as we live in a culture of death, and are surrounded by evil on every side.

More power to you! What are you doing here?

All I can say is that I do worry about your understanding.

Remember those who put themselves high on earth will be LOW in heaven.You gain more with a little honey. They gave OUR LORD VINIGAR too.graymayum.

 

[guanophore]

Remember those who put themselves high on earth will be LOW in heaven.You gain more with a little honey. They gave OUR LORD VINIGAR too.

I do not consider myself “high” to defend the teachings of the Church that Jesus founded. It is an honor to stand against the calumnies that you are bringing to CAF.

I do not believe you can be gained with honey. You clearly have rejected the authority that Christ gave to his disciples to govern the Church.

It is not sweet or charitable to confirm the lost in their sins.

graymayum.

How many people are on this login? We have nancy, harry, and now graymayum?

 

[MelanieAnne]

sambos671,
I would like to say that you have a better understanding about these things that many on this board.

Sambos671 let me “translate” the above phrase for you ~

“you have a better understanding about these things that many on this board” =
your views are more in line with those of “look3467”

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Sambos671 let me “translate” the above phrase for you ~

“you have a better understanding about these things that many on this board” =
your views are more in line with those of “look3467”

I have a question. Can you be Catholic and be gay?

 

[una_fides]

I have a question. Can you be Catholic and be gay?

Nancy–or–Harry–or–graymayum,

I think this entire thread is getting completely off topic, and I think you should start a new thread with that question. A brief answer: yes, a person who may have homosexual tendencies can be Catholic; however, he or she is bound by the moral law of Christ found explicitly in Scripture to not engage in such behavior or willfully desire to do so; otherwise, such a person would be committing grave sin. The sacrament of confession and frequent reception of holy Communion will help such a person tremendously to overcome such sins and to live a life of grace if such a person were open to God and his grace. As St. Paul assures us, For where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more.

 

[una_fides]

Unifides,Thank You very much I do have a question I looked up Mortal sin and unless I become a nun or a priest how can you live without being condemned to hell every day? There is so much we cannot do .Are we not sanctified by grace?I would have to live in a vaccuum.Just being in the forum sometimes goes from discussion to a very disagreable conversation,and you know what I mean. Didn’t Jesus say take my yoke upon you that it was easy and his burdens light? Nancy

Nancy,
I just started a new thread for you on this subject: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4783531#post4783531
I specifically geared it to understanding what the Scriptures say on the matter.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

So people could have a safe haven from false prophets?

 

[look3467]

Really? What position is that?

Why thank you AJ! That is the nicest thing anyone has said to me all day.

If I agreed with your rendition, would that be evidence that I have adequate spiritual knowledge.

Your position is the Catholic view and one in which I am familiar with and nothing new to add.

What I said about your spiritual knowledge is contained to the Catholic view only.

Which is OK by me, except there is no room to expand your understanding, until you can go out of that umbrella.

Definitely not a remark to embarrass you but indicate your limitations to other sources.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[wisdomseeker]

Your position is the Catholic view and one in which I am familiar with and nothing new to add.

What I said about your spiritual knowledge is contained to the Catholic view only.

Which is OK by me, except there is no room to expand your understanding, until you can go out of that umbrella.

Definitely not a remark to embarrass you but indicate your limitations to other sources.

Peace>>>AJ

and where exactly did you get the authority to teach the Word of God?

Galatians 1:9, "As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone preach a Gospel to you other than that which you have received, let him be Anathema."

 

[look3467]

Sambos671 let me “translate” the above phrase for you ~

“you have a better understanding about these things that many on this board” =
your views are more in line with those of “look3467”

MelanieAnne,
Of course that is what is meant.
Open minded allows one to see through spiritual eyes what the natural can not.
Case in point:we see the Jewish high priests and Judas as condemned to eternal damnation when we see it as written, but when we see it through spiritual eyes, we see that they were following the instructions given by God to Moses.

What was the fruit of the tree of knowledge as written? An apple perhaps?

If you look at it spiritually, it was the gaining of knowledge.

Surely, that in not the only one!

Peace>>>AJ

 

[MelanieAnne]

What that really does, is give the weaker in faith and knowledge
and incentive to strive to do good in fear.

When in reality, the motive should rather be, out of the will to want to do good, out of love rather than fear.

Assurance of ones salvation will free us up to engage in the fight to become victorious over the elements of this world.

Peace>>>AJ

This displays a fundamental misunderstanding of purgatory, and perhaps even the means by which we sinners are reconciled to God.

People, at least those who know what they’re doing, do not do penance out of fear. Similarly, when we enter that phase of our existence, Purgatory is not a place one should fear. That you believe it is a place to be feared shows that you do not understand Purgatory.

I submit that someone who does not understand something has no business preaching to others about it, especially in such a condescending manner.