Why do you think God allowed Protestantism?

[look3467]

This displays a fundamental misunderstanding of purgatory, and perhaps even the means by which we sinners are reconciled to God.

People, at least those who know what they’re doing, do not do penance out of fear. Similarly, when we enter that phase of our existence, Purgatory is not a place one should fear. That you believe it is a place to be feared shows that you do not understand Purgatory.

I submit that someone who does not understand something has no business preaching to others about it, especially in such a condescending manner.

Sorry I came across as condescending.
Is not purgatory a name for a place between heaven and hell that people go whose salvation was questionable and needed to be helped out by prayer of the living?

peace>>>AJ

 

[jmcrae]

Sorry I came across as condescending.
Is not purgatory a name for a place between heaven and hell that people go whose salvation was questionable and needed to be helped out by prayer of the living?

peace>>>AJ

No. Purgatory is where people go who are already on their way to Heaven, but who just need their “chaff” to be burned off, and their “gold” to be made pure.

It is not a second chance at salvation.

 

[Lujack]

Sorry I came across as condescending.
Is not purgatory a name for a place between heaven and hell that people go whose salvation was questionable and needed to be helped out by prayer of the living?

peace>>>AJ

Not quite. Purgatory is effectively a purification period before the deceased enters heaven. Anyone in Purgatory is going to Heaven, that is a certainty. It is the Catholic belief that prayers on earth can “speed” this process, and make the way to Heaven easier.

 

[MelanieAnne]

MelanieAnne,
Of course that is what is meant.
Open minded allows one to see through spiritual eyes what the natural can not.
Case in point:we see the Jewish high priests and Judas as condemned to eternal damnation when we see it as written, but when we see it through spiritual eyes, we see that they were following the instructions given by God to Moses.

What was the fruit of the tree of knowledge as written? An apple perhaps?

If you look at it spiritually, it was the gaining of knowledge.

Surely, that in not the only one!

Peace>>>AJ

Being humble and open to teaching is something to which we can all aspire. On the other hand, being so open minded that our brains fall out is not a good idea.

You appear to be preaching a relativist message. That is not what Jesus taught. That is not the path that leads to holiness and ultimately to God.

It is refreshing to see that you acknowledge (in saying “Of course that is what is meant.”) that what you have set up here is a scenario where if someone agrees with you they are knowledgeable spiritually, and if they do not agree with you, they have work to do. This is a prideful, arrogant statement. It is not only not humble, it shows a narrowness of vision. This is inconsistent.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Sorry I came across as condescending.
Is not purgatory a name for a place between heaven and hell that people go whose salvation was questionable and needed to be helped out by prayer of the living?

peace>>>AJ

No Purgatory is not “a place between heaven and hell that people go whose salvation was questionable and needed to be helped out by prayer of the living.” Thank you for proving my point that you fundamentally misunderstand Purgatory. I submit you should refrain from preaching to others about Purgatory until you do your homework and know something about it. I am sure that there are resources right here at Catholic Answers.

Purgatory is a place of purification. It is for US. God doesn’t need for us to be purified, WE need it. We need to be purified to be in God’s presence. Just as Moses had to be prepared to be in God’s presence, so do we.

Salvation isn’t questionable. Jesus died for our sins, and for the sins of the whole world. Where did you get such a ridiculous notion?

 

[una_fides]

and where exactly did you get the authority to teach the Word of God?

Galatians 1:9, "As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone preach a Gospel to you other than that which you have received, let him be Anathema."

Amen.

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

yes…

and those Protestants claim to know the bible so well… David wanted to build a “house” for the ark (for God) and God said that (something to the effect): I"m God, i don’t need a house (etc) but then He went ahead and allowed him to make a house for him anyway…

which brings up the fact that if God had an Ark in the old days… Why wouldn’t he have one NOW??? The Church is the Ark… as i see it … and Jesus is There (Real Presence) 24/7…

I believe that God withdrew his presence from the Ark when the soldiers of Israel went into battle and were getting hammered; they sent for the Ark under the assumption that God’s presence was guaranteed and therefore would ensure victory.

Of course, it didn’t quite happen that way…

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

I’ve read this discussion, and it had some interesting ideas throughout, especially from the point of view of a non-catholic believer, which I am. The one point of view that I found both prominent and troubling is summed up in the quote above.

I am not Catholic, but attended a Catholic university, where I took classes taught by priests and sisters on the faith and was surrounded by young Catholics at every turn. And I have to say I never once experienced the vitriol and hatred of protestantism I’ve seen here.

I just don’t get it…50+ years since Vatican II and the advent of ecumenics, and still some of you fight this battle, stoke these fires, as if you were in the trenches of WWII. To hear you speak, protestantism is an unspeakable evil, a blight, at best a great evil that God has SOMEHOW used for a (tiny) amount of good.

Seriously? Is this really what Catholics believe? Were all of those young people I spent time with really thinking this during all the discussions we had, the conversations of faith? If so, I should say they hid it well.

Let me clear something up for all of you: I love Jesus. He saved me from certain death and a lifetime of sin, and has been mercy and kindness to me every day since. He has become the meaning of my life, the center of my existence, and my closest dearest Lord to boot. And all of that is true because of the non-catholic faith that opened my eyes to Christ. And there are millions of Protestants just like me, and millions of Catholics too.

This war you fight, this hatred you have for protestantism, makes you look small, and I promise it does NOTHING to further the message of love your Lord died for, nor to build His Church, whatever form of that you adhere to. I would be very careful of calling something that has saved so many souls, and so swelled the ranks of the believing, something equal to “diseases, accidents, and every kind of stupidity.”

Excellent post. If we (collective, as Christians) had spent the last 500 years working in union with each other preaching the Gospel, we could have seen the world evangelized a hundred times over.

Instead, we’ve spent the last 500 years arguing over transubstantiation versus consubstantiation, the existence and nature of purgatory and limbo, and a bunch of other stuff. How can we not get it?

I grew up on a farm. If there was an expectation that a hundred acres of planted corn would yield x number of bushels at the harvest and it didn’t happen, there would be a small number of explanations:

1. Fire, drought, etc – Factors beyond anyone’s control wiped out the chance of a good harvest
2. Failure to harvest – This falls on the heads of the farm who failed to mobilize the workers to harvest at just the right time (and, as this parable goes, would never apply)
3. Failure to sow the fields – If a harvest never came in because the fields weren’t sown, it’s a pretty safe bet that the workers were either too lazy, too “busy” studying weather charts at the expense of getting the work done, or more interested in arguing amongst themselves over who got to disk the fields versus who got to irrigate. There will be a heavy price to pay for failure to sow.

Guess which one most of us fall into? We’d rather argue over whether Ignatius meant “catholic” in the sense of the Catholic church or over the catholic church. But share the Gospel with someone eager to learn? Nah…it’s easier to try to hit each other over the head with Scripture rather than apply them to our lives and help others apply it to their lives.

It makes me sick.

 

[look3467]

Not quite. Purgatory is effectively a purification period before the deceased enters heaven. Anyone in Purgatory is going to Heaven, that is a certainty. It is the Catholic belief that prayers on earth can “speed” this process, and make the way to Heaven easier.

That is what I learned it to be when I was a Catholic.

The word “works” works only in time and not in an the spiritual state.
Can we agree on that?

Therefore, if our works are: 1Co 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

Reality is: That “time” is the place where works are created whether for good or for evil and that in “time” is where works are tried by fire, for “the day shall declare it”.

Now “fire” is Gods consuming fire, and His fire is constant in “time” that burns off the chaff, the wood and the stubble in “time” as He works in our hearts in purifying us for the glory of His kingdom.

Now, it is my understanding that prior to Christ’s coming, there was a prison where all souls went to because of mankind’s being cast out of the garden.

Jesus visited them there and liberated them to where that prison no longer exists.

Psa 28:1 Unto thee will I cry, O LORD my rock; be not silent to me: lest, if thou be silent to me, I become like them that go down into the pit.

Was the Father silent when Jesus cried out? Meaning: the Father wanted Jesus to go down into the pit where the rest of them were.

What did He do there? Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Two applications of this verse: First pertaining to Christ’s visit to those bound in prison, in the spiritual world and second to those of us who are bound by this worlds cares that He will liberate us from them.

The question really is: Is not the blood of Christ sufficient to wash away the sins of mankind and render them perfect in the eyes of God, that there needs be a place to hold the not so perfect awaiting to enter heaven? (Purgatory?)

Christ is sufficient for any soul because He died for every soul, and which are the “works in time” of God in Jesus.

Jesus’ works were tried in the furnace of Gods fire, and was found to be pure gold.
Our works are tried “in time” and if they be of chaff, wood or stubble, we shall suffer loss, but if they be of gold and silver: rewards.

After “time” there is no longer works, for in the eternal state, “time” exists not!

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

I submit you should refrain from preaching to others about Purgatory until you do your homework and know something about it.>>>MelanieAnne

Against my understanding, purgatory does not fit, but hell, prison does.
So I explain my views which are contrary to your understanding, which by me is not an eternal life threatening issue.

I have no problem whatsoever, for anybody believe what they want to believe, after all, that’s a right God gave all of us.

My views are not to incarcerate, burden or bind anybody’s beliefs, but to enlighten towards liberty which is in Jesus.

Hence I never speak against anybody’s beliefs, save when it becomes life threatening due to righteous indignation.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

If we (collective, as Christians) had spent the last 500 years working in union with each other preaching the Gospel, we could have seen the world evangelized a hundred times over.>>>Hajnalcsillag

That is the new thought and one which allows God to work in the hearts of mankind to change them from within.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[guanophore]

So people could have a safe haven from false prophets?

I am not sure how to take this comment, nancy. In a sense, I agree with you . The reason that God allows factions is so that the truth will be more evident.

On the other hand, and based on reading some of your other posts, I think it is more likely that you are saying that Protestantism is a place where beleivers can be safe from “false prophets” which you equate to Catholic teachers.

 

[guanophore]

Your position is the Catholic view and one in which I am familiar with and nothing new to add.

Clearly not. Your posts have demonstrated a vast ignorance of the Catholic faith. You are right, though, you do have nothing to add to Catholicism, except yourself.

What I said about your spiritual knowledge is contained to the Catholic view only.

Do you mean to say that my sprititual "knowledge’ is limited because I am Catholic?

Which is OK by me, except there is no room to expand your understanding, until you can go out of that umbrella.

Definitely not a remark to embarrass you but indicate your limitations to other sources.

Peace>>>AJ

I think you are confusing knowledge with faith. Understanding is faith seeking knowledge. I have embraced the Catholic faith. This does not mean I am ignorant of opposing views and practices. Knowledge puffs up, and you are right, I am not going to go out from under the protection of Jesus puffing myself up on matters foreign to His teaching. I spent the vast majority of my life embracing doctrinal errors because I was either ignorant, or too stubborn to accept the truth. I don;t do that anymore.

Of course that is what is meant.
Open minded allows one to see through spiritual eyes what the natural can not.

So, you are saying that people who understand scripture the way you do are have appropriate spiritual perceptions, and those that do not have “natural” perception?

  Case in point:we see the Jewish high priests and Judas as condemned to eternal damnation when we see it as written,

i am sorry, look, but “we” don’t see this. The Catholic Church does not believe or teach this.

  but when we see it through spiritual eyes, we see that they were following the instructions given by God to Moses.

What was the fruit of the tree of knowledge as written? An apple perhaps?

If you look at it spiritually, it was the gaining of knowledge.

Surely, that in not the only one!

Peace>>>AJ

You are sounding like some kind of gnostic. They were disobedient to Moses,a nd were condemned for that,a nd for their lack of faith. Jesus made it clear on several occasions that they were disobedient to Moses and the Law.

You are falling into the same error Adam and Eve did when they ate the apple. They wanted to decide for themselves what was right and wrong, instead of accepting God’s instructions.

Is not purgatory a name for a place between heaven and hell that people go whose salvation was questionable and needed to be helped out by prayer of the living?

peace>>>AJ

No, purgatory is not really a “place” at all, because it exists outside the space time continuum. It is more properly a state, but since we have so much trouble thinking out side our mental limitations we often think of this, and heaven and hell as “places”.

No, the salvation of no one is questionable. When we come before the judgement,we are either deemed a sheep, or a goat. Those sheep who are not perfectly holy when they die are cleansed prior to entering heaven, since nothing unclean can enter. If you were to die today, do you believe that every bit of your sin nature has been separated from you?

 

[guanophore]

I submit that someone who does not understand something has no business preaching to others about it, especially in such a condescending manner.

I second your submission, and raise it to a recommendation!

 

[distracted]

I believe that God withdrew his presence from the Ark when the soldiers of Israel went into battle and were getting hammered; they sent for the Ark under the assumption that God’s presence was guaranteed and therefore would ensure victory.

Of course, it didn’t quite happen that way…

maybe he did, maybe he didn’t withdraw his presence…

but He does NOT withdraw his presence NOW, the Real Presence that abides in the Catholic Church in perpetuity. Jesus said (St. Mt 28:20) that He is with us always, even until the end of the age… He promised to never leave us or forsake us…

That is the most beautiful thing about our faith…

 

[anjoh66]

Name one or two reasons you think God allowed Protestantism.

I think one reason might be that Catholicism is so… difficult, that maybe God wanted there to be an “easier, softer” way that would lead people to Christ (and He knew that many would then be led to the RC Church)?? Just a thought.

Also, i think that Protestants generally focus on different things than Catholics do, different “aspects” of God, things that are nonetheless very important… like, well… i just think that sometimes they are more… friendly… & i feel they may trust in God’s mercy more than a lot of Catholics…

I think that God allowed protestantism because the church was in a very bad state at that time, so the reformations of the protestants also lead to reformation inside the church.

Some of the protestant things was quite good but it should have been done inside the church not by splitting into sects.

 

[look3467]

Clearly not. Your posts have demonstrated a vast ignorance of the Catholic faith. You are right, though, you do have nothing to add to Catholicism, except yourself. >>>guanophore

Does that mean that in my ignorance of the Catholic faith makes my views as of no value?

Do you mean to say that my spiritual "knowledge’ is limited because I am Catholic?>>> guanophore

Well, if one is not open to other than, yes.

I think you are confusing knowledge with faith. Understanding is faith seeking knowledge. I have embraced the Catholic faith. This does not mean I am ignorant of opposing views and practices. Knowledge puffs up, and you are right, I am not going to go out from under the protection of Jesus puffing myself up on matters foreign to His teaching. I spent the vast majority of my life embracing doctrinal errors because I was either ignorant, or too stubborn to accept the truth. I don’t do that anymore. >>>guanophore

No, I know you have faith, without question. But knowledge is in degrees, otherwise, we’d all know the same thing and experience no new thing.
It is the experience of life with the knowledge we have that we can either learn or continue to repeat until we do learn correctly and add to our knowledge as a more seasoned mature individual.

So, you are saying that people who understand scripture the way you do are have appropriate spiritual perceptions, and those that do not have “natural” perception?>>> guanophore

No, to see other than what is restricted thought, one has to be open-minded to outside knowledge which when weighed against what we already learned will either add or subtract to our understanding.
Having a base foundation, is essential otherwise, one will be led astray.
Your foundation is the Catholic fundamentals of which will either limit or allow the individual to explore beyond what it teaches.

One of the reasons some of you are on the non-Catholic religion thread is one of two things, curiosity and or to convert.

Which in one way allows you to experience the views of non-Catholics while the other to sharpen your spiritual swords.

You are sounding like some kind of Gnostic. They were disobedient to Moses, and were condemned for that, and for their lack of faith. Jesus made it clear on several occasions that they were disobedient to Moses and the Law.>>> guanophore

One of the key things about Gnosticism has to do with the individual self.

You see, individualism itself is against God, (that is what brought about separation) but if God is rebirth in the individual, as self is denied in the experience of life.

You are falling into the same error Adam and Eve did when they ate the apple. They wanted to decide for themselves what was right and wrong, instead of accepting God’s instructions.>>> guanophore

How can God unite spirit and body without that living soul having knowledge?
It is possible!

Consider a new born, is it not a living soul without knowledge?

But what about after that child gets to the point of accountability, with discernment, right from wrong, good from evil?

Wouldn’t that be the case with all of us? Hence: “the original sin theory”.

We all are Eve with Adam (spirit of God) in us originally, but because we become individual entities, as gods, we become separated from God and are strictly, Eves as in flesh only.

But when we come to the knowledge of the “tree of life” and gain understanding of who Jesus is, we are born again, this time with spirit Adam alive in us and not dead as before.

No, purgatory is not really a “place” at all, because it exists outside the space time continuum. It is more properly a state, but since we have so much trouble thinking out side our mental limitations we often think of this, and heaven and hell as “places”.>>> guanophore

OK, you want to play word games, “place” verses “state”?

Let me rephrase my sentence with the word change: my quote “Is not purgatory a name for a “state” between heaven (state) and hell (state) that people go whose salvation was questionable and needed to be helped out by prayer of the living?”

After that, I’ll accept your answer.

No, the salvation of no one is questionable. When we come before the judgment, we are either deemed a sheep, or a goat. Those sheep who are not perfectly holy when they die are cleansed prior to entering heaven, since nothing unclean can enter. If you were to die today, do you believe that every bit of your sin nature has been separated from you?>>> guanophore

Let me see if I read you straight: since it is not a question of salvation for no one, then it must mean that they are all going to be saved anyway, but because they are not all pure enough to enter heaven, they must be prayed out of purgatory “state” ?

If that is what I read as you meaning to say, then the state of hell must not exist?

Continued on next post, AJ

 

[look3467]

It’s pretty simple to understand that God created the flesh to be inhabited with knowledge of good and evil making of us gods, for we are made in His image.

That required a separation: Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

The wife are we in the flesh made after Adam, both bone and flesh requiring a rebirth of God’s spirit to gain salvation of our dead spirits.

So, either we are saved or we are not, no in between s.

Here’s how that works, while we are yet sinners, meaning still alive in the flesh, Jesus died for our sins.

If Jesus’ death does not cover any sin possible than you have a point, but Jesus death covers all sin and is able to deliver any sinner from the “state” of sin to everlasting life yet……….while we are sinners.

So, a state in between (purgatory) can not exist because in Christ, either all are lost or all are saved.
What mankind has done is place conditions, requiring this or that in order to achieve a desired governing practice by keeping people in bondage.

Being in bondage to some belief for some is adequate for lack of further study and or of gaining freedom worship God without conditions.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

I second your submission, and raise it to a recommendation!

Use me as your grinding stone and sharpen your spiritual swords!

Unless, they are already razor sharp?

In which case, I am without excuse!

Peace>>>AJ

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I am not sure how to take this comment, nancy. In a sense, I agree with you . The reason that God allows factions is so that the truth will be more evident.

On the other hand, and based on reading some of your other posts, I think it is more likely that you are saying that Protestantism is a place where beleivers can be safe from “false prophets” which you equate to Catholic teachers.

I gave my opinion at the time because I was being harassed by a few bullies on the forum,one who told me that revelations already happened so I thought Catholic’s didn’t beleive in it anymore and it disturbed me.and that was also the day you were not so nice to me at least I tell the truth.But I am sorry and would like to be your friend Thank You love of Christ Nancy P.S. and my english isn’t going to get any better.